Definitive Technology Mythos Series Thread - Page 156

Thanks for the insight Snow. Everyone on this site says to put the fronts and center on small.. I think they sound better on large. It sounds like its missing something if its on small.. JMO

I've been Installing Bipolar or Omnipolar type speakers since the 90's. Every speaker company has ideas on how to get this done , then evaluates that idea over time and tries to improve on it.
Mirage doesn't make high end speakers anymore which makes me sad as they where incredible speakers in those days. The new Omni sat and tower design as good as they are don't compare to the older model IMO.
Def Tech has improved on their designs over the years and I find a better sounding speaker. The new BP series , all of them I feel outperform the 7000 series dollar for dollar. They have a refined sound now and sound more like the Mythos series which are the best sounding Def Tech speakers ever made IMO of course.
Comparing Mythos to BP now makes more sense as the BP has that accurate detail and balanced sound from top to bottom. They are more musical then ever before IMO.
Many are changing out the Mythos center channels to BP as they match perfectly or damn close to where they don't sound different or distracting.

Personally I would not swap out my Mythos ST's for the BP8080's as I find the Mythos ST to be just sligthy more accurate and detailed. The Bipolar design needs to be placed correctly or it doesn't sound as good as it can. Yes this is true for most speakers but they really need good placement.
I have considered bringing home the entire front 8080's and center and doing a full shootout. I can place them very well in my room and really form a deeper opinion then I already have. The BP8080's are damn good and very close to the performance of the Mythos ST. Right now I still favor the ST but I would like to do a side by side as I only form my opinion from all the job's I've Installed both system on and listened. Rooms are different and speakers sound different in different rooms so having them in my room and doing a side by side should finish off my opinion on this matter.

Hi Land and Fanta, the SC 1 is a more compact subwoofer, (14-1/4 W x 14-1/4 D x 14-1/10 H) which matters to some consumers more than others. I saw a well-known brand of subs at CES one year, and was really surprised at how big the cabinets were.

Hey Snowmanick,

I picked up a set of these for my 8080 and will set it up tonight after work. I certainly think having the center slightly angled towards yours ears is a good thing and noticed that my tv stand was vibrating a bit so the isolation aspect makes sense. But after reading many reviews on this and other Auralex products do you really hear any difference in the overall clarity? The people that rate these things at Amazon mention more clarity and focus as if it is some miracle product.

Thanks

I wouldn't call anything a miracle product, certainly not a couple of foam pads. That said, I have my center on my Salamander equipment rack, which is pretty solid, but is also pretty low (rack is ~ 66" long but only 21" high), hence the need to tilt the speaker up (TV is wall mounted).

I feel like there was a noticeable difference on some material with the speaker tilted, which added some clarity and a little better blending of the fronts and center. I noticed the blending aspect the most on scenes/songs where a sound pans across the front three speakers, and a bit better clarity on some voices in shows.

The isolation works rather well too. I have a couple of hand-blown glass bowls on display on the equipment stand to either side of, and well back from, the center channel. Without the Mopad's the bowls vibrated and would occasionally shift around (not much, I don't want to over inflate the issue). After the Mopad's, nothing moves. I figured this may be beneficial for other items in the rack as well that have hard-drives, etc, as less vibration is normally good.

For the price of the Mopad's, I think they are worth it.

As a owner of both Mythos ST (in the living room) & BP7002 (in the HT), I'll put my $0.02 in this topic.

In a simple sentence, I'm much much more prefer (and love) my 7002 than the ST if I could only choose one to have in my HT. The spacious sound from the 7002 is just awesome whether is from movie or music concert. The ST sounds great too! Not that the ST isn't good or sound not as good, I think it's more like that "spacious imaging" & "fuller" the 7000 series produce that I'm missing from the ST. You see what I mean? Sound wise, they both are great even tho I feel the 7002 sounds "fuller" than the ST (remember we are comparing 4x 5.25" drivers vs 2x 5.25" drivers here). It's more the "imaging" that I prefer from the 7002 than the ST.

Now, this also comes to the placement too! My 7002 itself takes up more floor space than the ST (now image how big is the 7000SC! ). And need much much more space in it's surrounding too! I put the 7002 at least 18"-24" away from back & side walls. And my ST is just about 12" from the back wall, more in line to the media cabinet where the TV is in the living room. I would love to put my 7002 in the living room, but as most people, size/space/wife restriction prohibited to do so or I'll have to put it probably almost touching the back wall which do more harm than good. That's why the 7002 stays in the HT where space isn't a problem. And I have the ST in the living room where people actually will "see" it & space/placement is a concern.

I think the new 2010BP series is what DefTech tried to address most users' space/placement problem with the older 7000 series. It's the "placement" friendlier product when compare to the 7000 series while w/out giving up the bipolar design/sound that most people love from the 7000 series. With just a single rear firing driver & -6db tuned, the 8000 series could be put much closer to the rear wall than the 7000 series. And it's slimmer design also much modern day living room friendly. The 8080 is about the size of the STS. I truly feel DefTech is giving up the ultimate sound to more user friendly in the new 8000 series. But again, as I always said, at the end of the world, they all are a company who is trying to make money, not a researching firm that people hands money to them just for the research! So, much more user friendly = more sales, simple as that.


Yes, size does matter too in most people's home. And is part of the reason why I like/chose SC sub. Most of other mentioned subs are much bigger in size than a small 14 cubic inch box that could disappeared in most room.

Which Salamander model do you have Snow? I just want to see how much space you have if you put the 8080 center inside a cabinet opening (if it's put on top of the cabinet, my misunderstood then.). I have a BDI cabient that has a center opening for center channel speaker. I only using my old CLR2002 in it rather than any of the built-in subwoofer center as it only has about an inch or two top space within the center opening especially with the center tilted slightly upward using the factory feet.

According to the manual you only need 1-2 inches of space. For the CS-8080 that is.

Gotcha. I guess I will have to see for myself. I am afraid sometimes I will fall into a placebo effect.

Thanks

I'm just afraid putting a built-in sub center in such a tight space will sound muddy/boomy.

Hey there,
I've tried the 8080 center on a bottom shelf of a stand inside our entertainment cabinet, and IMO it does a little better, particularly with the Mythos ST line, if you have it outside the cabinet, on a center channel stand. I'm running XT32 and Audyssey Pro with my ST/Gem XL/two ULS-15s, and it seems that at least in my setup, you get a little better presentation of the center for dialog and singer voices when the speaker isn't inside a cabinet or shelf. I wouldn't say the 8080 sound inside the cabinet is "bad" (I found it more recessed/neutral and blending into the ST than the more forward orientation toward the center of the stage I like, after running Audyssey Pro), but to my taste, you get a more optimal image by allowing the 8080 room to breath and not risk getting nulled out by the cabinet. I wasn't completely bothered by the 90 to 110 Hz CC crossover I was getting from Audyssey, but I feel that that extra headroom with an outside stand was a finishing touch to really make the music come alive.

I'd try something like a Sanus stand or if youv'e the money, a Lovan M2 that has adjustable angles.

Mantis: you'd asked me about my impressions of MCACC+Audyssey a few weeks back. Very briefly, I'm not 100% done - I want to do a little more distance placement once I do some OmniMic measurements of the response - but IMO the differences are all about how seamless the imagery is. With Audyssey, it's a little harder to get crossover and the bass exactly to taste if you're used to the MCACC sound and standing wave tweaking, but the soundstage is HUGE and wraparound with Pro in a way that I didn't get with MCACC. I listened to "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" on the Wish You Were Here BluRay last night, and even sitting on a less than optimal MLP for Audyssey HT surround, the high frequency notes on the synthesizer and the range between bass, guitar and voice is stunning. You feel like you're sitting in the studio with Pink Floyd. It's loosely the difference between immersion and the very clear, but more two-dimensional, sound I got when I listened to it with MCACC (although to be fair, I still had the Mythos Nine as my center then).

I have the Synergy Triple 20 (I corrected the dim's in my post as my memory was off by a touch). As a reminder, I have the CS8060HD not the 8080HD, so it is a bit smaller. Also, the center sits on the Mopad's on the top of the cabinet, not on a shelf inside it.

I see. Thanks.

Size and weight were the only reasons I choose the 16" Rythmik F12 over the 19" E15.

I suppose I should just get rid of the furniture.

Thanks for the tip (I have a sub dude under my sub). I finally got around to re-running Auydssey (x32) and was happy to find it set a xo of 40 for the cs8080hd center (same crossover as the STSs). It sits on a large piece of furniture which puts the tweeter at ear level while I'm sitting. I haven't played any bombastic (that's a word, right?) movies yet, just a little test material (opening of Iron Man2 is a good one when he sky dives into the Stark Expo) and am happy. There is nothing above the 8080 execpt the ceiling, so I didn't have any problem running Auydssey (Thanks Joe@DT for confirming it's okay). Played some high res music samples too, medium volume, sounded great. kf

Hey guys I finally got my new speakers I order last week I upgraded from a pro 800 series to a Mythos Gem XL for fronts Gems as rear, CS 8060 as my center and super cube 2000 as my sub right now I'm so happy with this set up I watched Transformers and Fast Five or the weekend loved the sound so far. Might change my fronts down the road but love the XL as fronts right now.

Hi - I see that you're running separate subs as well as having the STS and CS8080 to handle bass. If so, it's interesting that you're getting the same recomended crossover for the center that I'd expect from Audyssey for ST/STs fronts.

I'm curious because in my setup, with two ULS-15, L/R Mythos ST, and the CS8080, I got a crossover of 90 Hz for the CS8080 when I ran XT32, and when I went to Audyssey Pro a few weeks ago, consistently got suggested crossovers between 90 and 120 Hz. With the two subs, that didn't bother me all that much, but I found that my system sounded better - clearer, more musical bass guitar notes with music - at a 90/100 Hz crossover rather than, say, 60 Hz when I tried that with XT32 before I did the Pro cal. Note that I had my CS 8080 at about 10:00 to 11:00 when I did my calibration, and the center was clearly powered on. I'm also getting reasonable trim settings - the mains and center are all in the -4 to -5 range.

The interesting thing is that the 'before' Audyssey charts showed relatively little bass response below 80 Hz @ -5db with the center (as in: well below -10 db until I got to 60 Hz), but much closer to 0 db for the fronts. I had the center on the bottom shelf in a stand, but while I could see some muffling of the bass response, I'm surprised that the center was this superfluous as a sub source, given that the speaker was almost parallel horizontally with the ST mains, and there was a good 2 to 3" above the CS8080 (and well more than that behind it) on the shelf.

I don't think my system lost all that much ultimately, except for slightly more recessed vocals and possibly a little tighter bass presentation up front, but I'm waiting for a Lovan center channel stand that I'm putting in front and below the TV, outside our entertainment center, to see if I can improve the 80 to 100 Hz mid-bass from the center before I call it a day. I'd like to set it to 60 or 80 Hz to match the Mythos ST, and at least know that there's non-trivial mid-bass response if possible.

I remember seeing one person on the 4311 thread using a 90 Hz crossover for a CS series center and powered DefTech mains, but I'd be curious if anyone else has gotten recommended crossovers as high as I did, and how it sounded, in a setup that also had more than one standalone sub as well.

Stuart

Audyssey XT32 set my crossover point at 40 Hz. I ultimately changed my fronts (STS) to Full/Large. It really sounds like because of where you have your fronts located Audyssey didn't pickup much on the low end so the crossover was set high. Speaker placement can make a world of difference.

I got the usual 40 Hz crossover for the L/R Mythos ST with XT32, which I then set to 80 as a personal preference (I got 40/60/80 splices with Pro for the ST). I was referring to the center CS-8080 getting the high crossover from Audyssey vs. 40 for the center in the OP. If I'd gotten 100 Hz and had no bass response below it for the ST fronts, there would definitely be something off with placement or the powered built-ins....

True. Audyssey determined my STS fronts to be LARGE.

However if the AVR suggests a crossover it's not a good idea to override it and move the crossover down (where the limit is down to 0 i.e. LARGE). Those recommendations are based on the Audyssey measured -3dB point.

You can, of course, move the crossover up (like I did in standard XT32 in moving from 40 to 80 Hz with my ST fronts; with Pro you don't want to change crossovers in the AVR once you select them in the software). It's less of an issue with MCACC, which doesn't EQ subs or bass < 63 Hz, and only sets trim level and distance. But Audyssey XT32 is actually EQing the sub and mains together, so it matters if you set the crossover below the suggested one.

sdrucker, for the record, I'm running one stand alone sub (a medium level SVS) while it looks like you're running dual HSUs. Shouldn't make a difference in crossover settings per Audyssey for the center or main speakers unless you don't have a subwoofer and would I suppose have to run the mains as "large" or "full range" since there would be no sub to crossover to..I don't know why your crossover would be so high for that speaker compared to the fronts as they both have similar sized subwoofers with similar amps (so it seems from the specs iirc..) the only real difference being on the cs8080 the speaker and radiators are facing up verses facing front on the ST/STS...

I am in the I trust Auydssey camp, though I do look at speaker distance settings and test the trims with the radio shack meter just to make sure nothings gone wrong (and one of the rear speakers did seem to be trimmed back just alittle too much, so I raised it 3 db to hit 75 db...otherwise, all looked and better yet, sounded good...subwoofer setting is trickier due to wall boundry.)...kf

sdrucker, have you tried adjusting the gain knob on your 8080 a little higher? On my 8060 center it seems that at around 11:45 (hard to be really exact, but not quite at the 12 o'clock position) Audyssey changes how it classifies my center. Below the mid 11 o'clock range Audyssey sets my center to small with 100 HZ crossover, above it and it sets it to a large. Trim levels stay about the same, and I don't notice anything by ear when I've played with it, but it has struck me as funny that such a small adjustment on the gain knob shifts how Audyssey detects the -3db point.

I'm using a Denon AVR-4311CI in my system and the center has nothing above it until the ceiling (8 foot ceiling height), the front of the speaker is about 26" from the front wall, sits about 2" in front of the cabinet it sits on, and the front wall has a 4" acoustic panel that is 8 feet long x 40" high spanning the lengthwise between the mains.

I'm considering going to separates with the Integra DHC80.3 and a multichannel amp( Not picked yet as I don't really care for the Integra amp). We are getting the Pro kit and I'm gonna put it through it's paces in our theater room. I'm not even remotely close to being unhappy with MCACC as I feel it's an incredible calibration tool especially on the SC models. I've been doing MCACC calibrations since 2002 when the VSX49 came out which was the very fist in room MCACC calibration receiver. It was a beast and sounded amazing.
Thank you for your input .

Got these in place and it has made a notable difference. Overall things just sound better. Thanks for the tip.

I have noticed a lot of talk about the CS-8080 and cross over point. I noticed that before I modified my tv stand to fit the 8080 that I had gotten a crossover of 40hz. The 8080 was sticking out of my tv stand and resting on it's box, so the top was more exposed. Since modfifying I now have the speaker fully inside the stand, and I get 90hz (have ran Audyssey maybe 3 times). I have only Audyssey XT not XT32...

I have now notice a little muddiness from time to time, I think it has to be from the tv stand and the 8080's top clearance...And perhaps it is directly related to the crossover point that Audyssey gets.

Just thought I'd throw in my results to the conversation.

Agreed and a good contrast--I also have my CS-8080 inside a stand, where I got the 90 Hz+ crossover. With XT32, I'm not really getting muddiness except for occasional quiet scenes with dialog in the CC, and women with deeper voices. But I noticed the difference when I did a quick A/B with the center resting on a 16" high kitchen chair, outside of the entertainment center's TV stand. It was enough of an improvement in presenting HT voicing that I ordered the Lovan adjustable CC stand to keep the 8080 in a placement without an upper shelf. The only downside is the couple of hours I'll lose running the Pro cal again

If you think about it, the higher crossover makes sense, since the woofer and bass radiators are on top of the speaker, as kmfellows pointed out. Even if you give it 2" or 3" of room on the top, the lower bass response may be getting nulled out, so you get 90 instead of 40 Hz as a crossover from Audyssey. If you have capable external subs, it's not a huge loss. But if you want to use the powered center for better mid-bass and crisper dialog, and get the most out of a 60 Hz or higher crossover (and minimizing a pre-Audyssey dip or null, even if you don't finally run the center full-range or below 60 Hz), maybe it matters enough to keep a powered center outside of a cabinet with shelf placement, in order to get a better indication of the speaker's bass capability, and blend that into the ultimate calibration.

That's the main reason I'm sticking with my old CLR2002 inside the media center to go with the ST in the living room. Center channel is the same as any other channels that surrounding area does matter. As much as I want the newer 8080, I just can't convince myself that the top firing sub (mid-bass) will sound any good with 1-3" gap inside a cabinet. If I'll need to cross my powered sub speakers (front or center) at 80+hz, now what's the point of getting such a speaker to start with?? The subwoofer will not get much (if any) work when you cross it that high anyway.

Hello Gary,
On the one hand, yes, you have a point that putting the CS 8080 or 8060 HD centers into a cabinet isn't the ideal way to hear them. Like any other speaker, if you give it some room to breathe, it improves - true. But remember that the deeper you go in frequency, the more omnidirectional a speaker is. The mids and highs are of course forward firing, and the woofer fires up. We have big numbers of those speakers installed that way in the field, and my guess is that you would hear an improvement vs the CLR2002. Try one crossed at 60 or 40 Hz and see what you think. Just my 2 cents - best regards, Joe

Joe - comparing a Mythos Nine to a CS-8080, both inside a cabinet, I would agree that the CS-8080 can be an improvement over older Mythos center channels. Certainly I believe that for the mids and highs, which IMO are reason enough to go with a CS-8080 over an older Mythos CC (and possibly the CLR series, but I don't have direct experience with it). And inside cabinet placement is a practial solution real-world placement, especially given the 8080's size and TV stands with center channel shelfs being readily available.

However, while it might be nice to have a 40 to 60 Hz crossover to get the full impact of the 8080's capabilities, the problem is that when you use a program like Audyssey XT32 (and in my own case, Audyssey Pro as well), the room correction software is measuring in-room response and adjusting accordingly to get a flat response on the Audyssey curves in the bass range. I found that that the 90 Hz+ center crossover for in-cabinet or in-shelf placement was justified because there was little, if any, measured bass response below that point (I had -10 db on the Audyssey "before" graph until I got near the 80 Hz range, and didn't hit -5 db until closer to 90 or 100 Hz). In that case, there's little practical bass response to capture, so crossing over at 40 or 60 Hz doesn't make sense for the center.

As per my own experience, and at least one other person here, you won't get the full benefit of having a 40 (or I would personally say 60 or 80 Hz) crossover unless you have the 8080 on a shelf or stand where there's no shelf above it (i.e. only the ceiling); that Audyssey went with the 40 Hz crossover when a speaker was relatively unobstructed by a top shelf, and 90 when the 8080 was more fullly insided a cabinet, is revealing. That would intuitively make sense when you have upward-firing woofers, as the 8080's lower and mid-bass may be getting cancelled out due to the shelf above the speaker. Also, if you have Audyssey Pro, you don't want to physically override the crossovers - you pick one suggested by the software, and the filters are optimized using that splice. With in-shelf placement, I've never gotten a crossover LT 90 Hz.

So I would think that if you really want 60 or 80 (let alone 40) Hz crossover, it requires extra effort to get it measuring actual bass response from the 8080; you can't correct a null, after all. Either you position the 8080 on the shelf or on a stand so that the woofers aren't under an upper shelf directly, or you mount the speaker above a TV on a wall or bracket.

I don't think the CS-8080 sounds 'bad' regardless; it's just a matter of where you want the mid-bass to come from. After doing my own quick & dirty A/B test last night (on a quick three-position pro run, I got 40/60/80 for the 8080 from Pro after sticking the speaker outside the cabinet on a makeshift standalone stand until I get the real one), I'd say it's the difference between "great" and "head-turning" to get that little extra from the 8080.

I never select a powered center as an option when having to place it inside a cabinet. If it has to go inside a cabinet , I select a center speaker that works better like a Mythos 10 for BP and Mythos systems. The 8040 performs well inside cabinets but I still prefer it outside as it has a passive on top. All the older BP powered centers performed better outside then in and I've done my share inside enough to learn this was not a good idea not to mention on less quality cabinets it rattles.

This design is made for free standing and works it's best , why spend a grand on a center channel and then place it poorly. I don't care what Def Tech says about placing it inside a cabinet , it doesn't work it's best. Sure it will work and still sound pretty damn good but again not it's best so why do it? You can think of this like room acoustics , the better the acoustics of the room the better chance ones system has to perform it's best.

Honestly with most TV's being hung on wall, the Mythos series centers are an excellent choice as they can be wall mounted. When calibrated correctly , they all sound wonderful with a good supporting subwoofer or 2(I prefer 2 subs in any system over just one).

The 8080 is a killer center channel and I have strongly considered bringing one home and doing a full shootout against my wall mounted Mythos 10. I have ST's in the front and Mythos 10's for surrounds. I have no complaints with the Mythos 10 at all but the powered center is intriguing and I'd really like to hear how it would perform in my personal system.Whats so cool about these new centers is the ability to blend with Mythos series speakers. Adding more ability to create bass in ones system in more places always performs better. The goal isn't louder or more impact , it's even coverage and fuller sound which is the goal with adding more subwoofers.

I have a Salamander Triple 20 with Saturn Wheels and nothing on top of my stand so this would be a very easy move.