Definitive Technology Mythos Series Thread - Page 159

The Denon AVR-4311CI is on sale.

Electronics Expo has the AVR-4311CI for $2099 - $905 off with coupon code BENSBARGAINS + $30 shipping for a total of $1224 shipped.

$1224 for a brand new authorized AVR-4311CI delivered to your front door!

That is an absurdly good deal...I wish I was in the market for a new receiver.

Thanks, Yosh7, but I ended up getting the new Pioneer Elite SC67. The Denon 4311 seems like a great receiver from what I've read. I was not aware that it has a zone 2 sub out. 2 sub outs does not necessarily mean that one of those can be designated to zone 2, though, right? Aren't they both just for zone 1? So what are you getting instead of the 4311 and why?

Joe

I am sitting back laughing a little at Yosh. You asked him why he upgraded to separates and it made me remember him and I exchanging ideas and opinions on Receivers vs. Separates. Glad to see he finally decided to take the plunge.

As far as not using a stand alone sub, the STS are sufficient but there will be times you will feel like the really deep (low) bass is somewhat lacking.

The power conditioner I would pass on. Yes they can remove noise from the line and smooth the power ripples out but most AVR's are not effected by it unless you live where the power is truly bad. I have 2 so I am speaking from experience.

As far as an AVR having a sub out for a 2nd zone I really cannot think of any off hand. If there are any they are probably a top of the line model from which ever manufacture.

I too say get your cables from Bluejeans. You will pay less than half what BB wants.

Thanks for your advice master. The new Pioneer Elite SC67 that I ordered actually has a zone 2 sub connection. That's one of the reasons I decided to get it other than that it is awesome in other regards.

Another question, I am trying to decide where to place my rear Gem XL's. The room is an odd shape with high ceilings. I have a few options but one includes placing the speakers just behind and about 10 feet above my head pointed straight down. Is it preferable to have some horizontal vector to the rears, actually further behind angled some forward, or is the setup I described ok?

Thanks,

Joe

Hi Joe, if your surround speakers are firing pretty much straight down, it won't be optimal, but it will work. You want the surround channels to be a bit more diffuse than the fronts, so it might actually help that they ceiling is 10 feet. If it's possible to do so, my guess is that it will sound better if you can move them a bit further back and angle them forward a bit. I hope this helps - best, Joe

I deserve to be laughed at. I have uncontrollable upgraditis. I have been gradually converting everything over from Mythos to BP. I went with the ST system in my last house as it was in a living room situation. It fit better, met WAF, and sounded great (I truly wanted BP at the time but there was no way it would have been a good idea in our last room/house). I love my Mythos ST's and am hesitant to sell them as well as they are more than fantastic speakers (especially for music!). We moved a couple of years ago and I now have everything in a dedicated room so I could go nuts. My ST's were moved to surround back until I finally got BP 7000's for front L/R and Surround Back L/R with BPVX's for side surrounds and 8080HD for center. (There were more steps to the upgrade than that - also had Mythos 4's, Mythos 10's and BPX's in the mix at various points). I felt my Denon 4311 was absolutely fine with both the Mythos ST setup and the BP setup but I had read so many posts of the BP7000's loving power so I decided to switch to separates to milk every last bit of performance out of them that I could. I switched from the Denon 4311 (outstanding receiver in my opinion) to the Integra DHC 80.3 with a Sunfire TGA 7401 (400 watts/ch x 7). During the process of the upgrade, I had the opportunity to listen to the ST's back in the front L/R position with the Integra/Sunfire combo as well. I do have to say the Denon was more than great with the ST setup, but the separates did bring additional clarity and impact at louder volumes. Even The bass seemed to have more impact and punch. The benefit of having separates with the BP7000's was exponential and definitely more noticable to my ears. The bi-polar effect, soundstage, clarity - everything was improved with the separates.

I set my volume to absolute and really had never felt good putting it higher than 65 with the Denon - really just out of fear that I would run out of power and cause distortion - the only thing I ever noticed was that at loud volumes it sounded slightly more harsh and bright. This is definitely not the case with separates. The louder I go, the bigger the soundstage gets and the more everything just opens up. Now my NORMAL listening level is between 60 and 70 on the volume.

This is not a post to make anyone with a receiver think they need to go to separates. In 95% of "normal and sane" listening conditions, a good receiver will be fine IMHO - especially with sensitive speakers like Definitives. But there IS a noticable improvement when you get separates. I think the extra $$ was worth it, but I am sure many will not. I personally feel more noticable improvements come from upgrading speakers and subs before going with separates. Probably the biggest improvement I noticed as I went through the different steps of the change was going from a pair of Definitive SC References to a pair of Seaton Submersive HP's. Tremendous. Then going from ST's to BP7000 helped with a null I had in front of the room as I was able to face the internal subs out (a little bit of customization) - I found that with the ST's (sub fires straight out) and the 7000's subs facing in that there was a bass null, but with Subs out it corrected. Also going from two front facing 5 1/4" drivers in the ST's to four 6 1/2" drivers (2 on front/back) and 2 tweeters provided a very different listening experience that I personally prefer. Going from Mythos 10 to 8080 HD was a very big improvement as well. Final piece of puzzle was separates.

I will be re-listing my pair of Mythos ST's and Denon 4311 on Audiogon soon. PM me with any interest. I hope this story of upgrade madness helps...

More to follow! I am CONSIDERING going with SM 450's for heights for a 9.2 setup BUT then I would have to buy a stereo amp to power them. Next year I WOULD LIKE to go from my 60" plasma to a screen/projector setup - 4K would be nice I have to be ready for the next wave (The Hobbit, Prometheus, etc) I think many movies have already been shot in 4k (maybe District 9, Girl with Dragon Tattoo?) Or maybe new panels like the new 90 incher from Sharp will eventually be 4K? Video standards and resolutions change so frequently I can wait on that upgrade. And because of the frequent changes I am less likely to put the significant $$ into it as remorse happens quickly. I still favor my first generation 50" Panny 1080P plasma over much I have seen. I guess that's a conversation for another area.

Given your upgrade mania, it would probably not be a very good idea for you to look at this website:

http://www.higherfi.com/audio_speakers/1

Thank Joe,

Joe

Joe,

Is it important that the speakers (rear Gem XL's in this case) be approximately the same distance from my head? I was considering a configuration (based on architectural limitations) where one rear is slightly higher and further back than the other. Can one make adjustments for slight differences in distance of speaker to subject if necessary?

Thanks,

Joe

So I was most likely going to end up getting the XTR-60 once I've got the TV mounted and current speaker put back. However, I put the brackets on the TV and I'm starting to think that although I bought a slim tiling mount and the LED TV is very thin, it's still going to be 3-5 inches off the wall. It will be tilted down a bit, but I think the XTR will be too thin and that I should either keep the current speaker (Atlantic Technology FS3200C), which is about 4 or so inches off the wall, or upgrade to something of a similar depth. I looked at the Mythos but Definitive's site is a bit confusing as I believe some models are newer/older and I can't tell if the quality/production lines up correctly with their model numbers. Basically, if I'm looking for a on-wall center channel that is about 6 inches high and 4 inches deep while being wide enough to look good with a 65 inch LED, which of them would fit the bill?

Great story Yosh. I bet the St's sound beteer with that Sunfire too. I knew your would hear a difference with separates, but as you said it's not for everyone. That is one of the Power Amps I have considered but foundan older reworked and improved Carver model. I am still amazed at how it performs. Too bad you are so far away. I would have loved to compare the two.

Yosh, your story gives me a chuckle! Yep - the reason why manufacturers make more expensive products is that they really are better. As you said in your post, not everyone will feel that it is worth the money...but better is still better, right? Best, Joe

Hi Joe, it seems to me that you'll need to look at your receiver capability. If you can adjust the rear surround channels for distance in your set-up software, you should be fine.
Let us know how it turns out Ok? Best, Joe

Hello Super, after reading your description I think the XTR 60 may still be your best bet. If it goes underneath a tilted TV, I don't think it will look out of place. But you can also look at the Mythos 10 which is similar in price and just about the exact height / depth you are thinking about. Best, Joe

Joe,

Thanks for your help. I have more questions. With my setup (2 STS's, CS8080, 2 Gem XL's) do I need a subwoofer? My understanding is that the bass from the STS's should be sufficient. What is your opinion?

I am going to order speaker cable online, probably from Blue Jeans. What type/size of cable should I get to optimize the various speakers? Do I need other accessories like banana plugs or spade lugs and if so how many? I will have a 300W sub outside (zone 2) as well. Does that benefit from thicker cable or anything different?

Thanks,

Joe

In my room the -3dB point is abount 35Hz. That's good enough for most music but not for bass-heavy movies.
There is no objective evidence that supports anything other than sufficient gauge for the current load and shielding for low-level signals in RFI/EM noisy environments. One of my sub cables is from BJ because they will build them to length. All the rest of my cables are from monoprice and all my connectors are GLS. XLs on stands need compact banana plugs or offset pins.

I am perfectly happy with my ST's without a subwoofer - for music and movies. A sub (or two) would be great, but strictly optional.

For speaker cable, I use monoprice 12 ga. exclusively. My longest run (from my AVR, along the walls to my left surround) is about 50'.

Thanks. I'm totally a rookie at this. Which monoprice 12G should I get?

12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable

12AWG CL2 Rated 2-Conductor Loud Speaker Cable (For In-Wall Installation)

12AWG CL2 Rated 4-Conductor Loud Speaker Cable (For In-Wall Installation)

Thank you very much.

Joe

"XLs on stands need compact banana plugs or offset pins."

Why is this the case? What is the purpose of banana plugs? My XL's will be hung from the ceiling. Do I still need banana plugs or offset pins? Would I need them for any other speaker?

Thank you,

Joe

If you aren't running your wire in the wall, then get the first one.

I'm not sure what you mean by in the wall. There will be wire going behind the wall into attic, back down for the rears through ceiling, etc. Is "behind the wall" the same as "in the wall?" What is the difference between the cables and the issue at hand? Some type of interference when you go behind or in wall?

Thanks,

Joe

I'm not an expert, but I believe in-wall rated wires exist to meet building/fire codes. If you will be running wires inside of a wall (as in out of sight insight the wall cavity), then you should use wires rated for that purpose. If it's an older home and you won't have building inspectors checking your work, then it's up to you what you use or what you are comfortable using.

If it were me and the price difference was negligible, then I'd probably use the in-wall stuff just to be safe. If in-wall wire is crazy expensive, then I personally wouldn't bother with it (my house is 50 years old and speaker wire is the least of my worries!).

Excellent. Thanks so much for your help!

Joe

I have always had the intention of upgrading to ST towers up front but was wondering if anyone has integrated Triton Twos into their system?

Currently I'm running 8s as LCR and XLs in the rear with a pair of SVS PC-12s handling LFE.

Would going with the Tritons be problematic not being timbre matched?

I visited a friend who has a pair of Magnepan 3.6's the other day. All of a sudden, my ST's don't sound as good as they used to...

Much depends on the room acoustics and what you are driving them with. Ask Yosh7 was it worth it to upgrade to separates. All power amps and the amp section in AVR's are not equal.
You also have to remember the Maggies reflect sound from the rear that reflects off the wall which will give them a different sound and enhance the sound stage.