Definitive Technology Mythos Series Thread - Page 162

By doing the above, you are not calibrating the sub to any sources. You are simply matching the output of the adjustable powered sub portion of the STS to the non-adjustable unpowered portion of the STS.

^^^^
If you think of the Mythos ST powered (adjustable) section as subs, true. But if you're running Audyssey, which applies filters to the measured responses, IMO you're better off using the channel level (trim) in the AVR to adjust the sub volume rather than the on-board volume control. Otherwise you may inadvertedly wind up introducing bass response factors that haven't been EQ'd by the software.

However, if you have external subs along with the Mythos, level matching the output of the adjusted powered section and the non-adjustable unpowered section is critical to have a proper tuning of the speaker. I've been running Audyssey Pro/XT32, and kept coming up with a dip at the 80 to 100 Hz crossover, as well as reduced output in the 150 Hz region for my powered CS8080-HD. A dip in the 100-200 Hz region has been seen in some of the lab test reviews of the Mythos ST; see http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-bench-definitive-technology-mythos-st-loudspeakers for example. Something similar was seen in a test of the CS-8080HD. I'd generally had my onboard speaker volumes at a level between 11 and 12:30, with little impact on my Audyssey 'pre' charts and very similar 'after' charts..

But then I found that by following an approach similar to the one that Mantis10 uses for an LFE input - I actually got the idea from a review of the Goldenear Tritons that discussed multiple ways to set up the sub portion of those powered towers - I got a much flatter response when I measured my three powered speakers with my OmniMic measurement software post-Audyssey. Enough so that the dips I mentioned were substantially reduced to an acceptable +/- 3 db range. And the sound improvement IMO was considerable: bass that was more lifelike and musical, particularly in the center, more forceful male vocals, and more detail in things like rhythm electric guitar and KB in both the center and from the L/R mains. The mains were also better blended with my external subs (HSU ULS-15s).

The only downside is that it takes more work: you have to have measurement software and do SPL level-matching. That extra hour or so is worth it, though.
Edited by sdrucker - 8/18/12 at 10:00am

Went from the Mythos 9 to the 10. Never happy with dialogue; seemed muddy with the 9. Towers are STS, Denon 3310 AVR, Audyssey settings.. Still muddy with the 10. Notice any difference going from the 8080? Any thoughts/suggestions/recommended settings for the 10?

But they are not separate adjustments, palmfish. Your are increasing the subs volume until there is a noticeable difference beyond 12 oclock. How is that matching anything?

Sorry, I don't think I understand what you're asking.

12 o'clock is just an arbitrary setting. In my home, my right speaker sub control is at 9:30 and the left speaker sub control is at 11:30.

If you turn the STS volume knob down to zero (about 7:00) and play a 75dB pink noise test tone, you are only using the top half of the STS - the bottom (subwoofer) portion is silent. Now, while continuing to play the pink noise, you gradually turn up the subwoofer volume, at some point, the entire speaker will rise above 75dB. This is the point when the subwoofer is playing louder than the top half of the speaker (which is still at 75dB). Once you exceed 75dB, adjust the volume knob back down until you're back at 75dB.

Your STS sub is now calibrated to the unpowered top half.
Edited by palmfish - 8/19/12 at 12:42am

Thanks palmfish, I think that makes sense.

Do you, or does anybody, use external sub(s) with your def tech? I have the STS supertowers. And, if so how do you manage the bass? For example, would you set the L & R to full range (large) and use a cross frequency of say 60 to 80 Hz?

I have the Mythos 9 and STS towers. For me, using Audssey with dync EQ seems to help quite a bit. Center is small with a cross over of 90 hz and F & L are large with 40 hz cross over.

If you have them set to large then the crossover setting shouldn't matter unless you have "double bass" on.

I have STS and use a Supercube Reference. Palmfish's method is a good one.I run the my STS set to Large/Full Range. I have tried them set to small and did not like the results. Where the STS sub dial is set will vary from room to room. I keep mine at about 1 o'clock.

No difference in dialogue between the 10 (which I had but sold when getting the 8080) , the 8080, or the 9. My room is medium sized with STS mains set to small, crossed over to SVS sub at 40..Haven't rerun audyssey yet after putting the 9 in place of the 8080 (still might swap the 8080 back in for Avengers..donno...). The only thing I'm giving up at sane volumes is bass extension, the 9 probably only goes down to 90 in my set up, where I could set the 8080 down to 40. But whatever the 9 can't do down low, the subwoofer can easily handle. I still like the idea of the front 3 speakers being "full range" even if I cross them over at 40. Both the 9 and 10 use the updated drivers compared to the 8,3, or 7...I'm not familiar with the 3310 (Onkyo 3008 for me) but dialogue sould not be muddy with either the 9 or 10, in fact voices have been singled out in reviews as these speakers forte. If your STSs aren't muddy in the mid range, - and the 9 uses the same drivers as the STS (and 10 same as ST)...maybe the trouble is in speaker placement or speaker settings in the AVR? Maybe try running your settings without the center (phantom center) and listen to how your STSs reproduce the human voice? kf

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by "double bass". I have the Marantz av7005 which is set as follows:

Bass - LFE+Main - double bass???
LPF for LFE - 100hz - not exactly sure what that means, upper range level???
Front L&R Large - full range, 40hz crossover
Center - small, 90hz crossover

From my understanding the sub will play frequencies below 40hz from the fronts, and below 90hz from the center.

I have a polk 10" (psw 404) sub and have tried the STSs set to full and small, with a crossover from 60 to 80, but really can't tell any difference. The bass seems to be undefined or unclear, maybe muddy is the right term. Anyway, I keep thinking that adding one or more quality subs would improve the musical SQ for the low end, and then I could set the STS to small to handle the upper/mid range.

Maddmaster, do you have a method for calibrating the supercube with the STS?

That doesnt surprise me as thats a pretty low end sub. Try one thats not ported but sealed and youll experience tighter, cleaner bass. Pick up a SuperCube 2000 or higher and see what you think.

FlyBoy1999,
I agree with ben_r_. In my experience, ported speakers/subs may have lower overall frequency response, but at the expense of tight, clean bass. I have also found ported speakers/subs to have less "slam" to them (such as in movie soundtracks) than their sealed cabinet counterparts. Subs with non-powered passive radiators are a significant improvement to both the slam factor and tightness/cleanness over ported speakers, but, again, in my experience/to my ear, they are not as accurate (tight/clean) as a sealed sub with one or more powered drivers and no passive drivers.

That said, I own a couple of Mirage BPSS-210s which are EXTREMELY musical as well as accurate/clean/tight and low (they are sealed and each have two 10-inch servo controlled powered drivers and no passive drivers, have REAL response down to 18 or 20 Hz, and they were pretty darn expensive when I bought them - and a ginormous footprint, a definite drawback), but my one Definitive SuperCube II with one powered driver and two passive drivers is hands-down my favorite for "slam" with movies (even at the expense of a little accuracy and tightness) due to it's ability to fill my theater room with slamming LFE bass. And if I happen to blow it up (NOT likely), it was not very expensive (relatively) and could easily be replaced with a current Definitive model. If I blow up the Mirages, I am out of luck as they are no longer made and would cost an arm and a leg to replace for similar musical performance.

Definitely look into the SuperCube 2000 or Supercube Reference, or for the ultimate the Supercube Trinity. Take some music and movie material which has great bass WITH WHICH YOU ARE VERY FAMILIAR and go listen to them and see how you like the sound. But you should also make sure you listen to other makes and models as well, especially since in the last several years many, many sub manufacturers have significantly dialed up the performance for a given price point, especially in the $1000 or so range.

As always, my advice is free - and worth every penny you paid for it!

Yes That means double bass.

Turn the bass to LFE only.
LPF for LFE just turn to the max, you don't need to filter the LFE anymore as its content isn't high anyway.
There is no crossover if they are set to full range. I would set them to 60-80Hz even if they are capable of lower provided you have a good sub
Center sounds like its set well.

There are so many things that can cause your bass to sound muddy, and your sub(s) being ported is at the bottom of the list.

Before you spend a ton of money on new subwoofers only to learn they aren't any better than what you already have, experiment with crossover settings, volume settings, and most importantly, placement. If you don't know where to start, check some of the other forums here and search the web.

I have the LFE connected to the supercube and the STS are connected using speaker wire. I let Audyssey do it's thing and adjust the sub using it. The only thing you have to be careful of is where you locate the sub. If it is in the wrong place it will cancel any bass coming from the STS instead of helping fill the room.

palmfish is also correct. You should do all of those things before you shop for a new sub. You might find that the closer to a corner of the room your sub is, the more your bass will boom, but it will also be less clean (at least this is my experience). Placement of your subwoofer is one of the most influential factors affecting how it sounds. Here is a suggestion for getting the placement that sounds the best to you. Put your subwoofer where you sit to watch movies/listen to music (ideally at ear level, but this can be a bit cumbersome in practice). Play your "reference" music and/or movie and crawl around on the floor until you get to the location in the room that has the best sounding bass. That is where you should place your sub. Depending on the practicality of using that location, you can keep searching in this manner until you find both an acceptable location AND the sound you like, and make whatever sound/placement tradeoffs necessary to keep you and anyone else in the house happy.

Good luck, and most importantly, have fun while doing it!

Thanks jmwebuser,

I'm also looking at the JL Audio Fathom f112, which I hear (read) is very nice. Very expensive though, comparable to the Trinity. Also, for less than half the f112 and Trinity are dual SVS SB12-NSD subs. The SVSs seem like at great deal, plus are a good size for me. Are 2 subs better than one? I'm so confused.

Thanks everyone,

It's obvious I need to do some experimenting and reading before deciding on new sub(s).

Two subs may or may not be necessary depending on your room size and such - probably not NECESSARY for most people. I have two primarily because my listening space has some characteristics that make it very difficult to fill it with low frequency sound, and my preference for having stereo subs for music (which by objective evaluation is probably NOT necessary and something that I could really discern from a mono sub, except that I do need the second sub for the first reason above). BUT a second sub introduces significantly more complexity into the tuning the sound in the room. Placement becomes even MORE significant. Low frequency sound waves can cancel each other out in some places and reinforce each other in other places.

You definitely should spend as much time as you can tuning your current sub to your room/system before replacing it or adding another. Only if you are unable to get it to sound the way you want it after working with it would it make sense to go buy something else - because you will have to do the same thing with anything new that you bought anyway. And if you end up not being able to get the sound you want with your current sub, the time and energy you spent tuning it will just make tuning the new one go all that much faster and easier.

-J

Thanks jmwebuser. If you don't mind me asking, how do you implement stereo subs?

If you are in the f112 realm, definately include the Seaton Submersive HP. I love love love mine. Hoping some day to get a second.

JM Web, good suggestion - the crawl test is the tried and true method. Crawling with some business cards in your hand may help. Just place one down when you hear good bass, then move on. You can look back at where the cards are and figure out the sound/placement tradeoff pretty easily. I hope this helps - best, Joe

Hi Fly, twin subs can help you to overcome the room-mode issues that can make a good sub sound mediocre. We always hear some combination of reflected bass and direct bass sound, and if the reflected bass is out of sync (more accurately, out of phase) with the direct bass, you'll get cancellations that make the sound not so good. If this sounds complex, don't worry - it's easy. Take your current sub and, with some steady, strong bass playing, move it around a bit. The sound will get better...or worse. An easier method is to simply move your listening position. Start by standing in the corner - where the bass will sound heavy - and take a giant step into the room. Then take a series of steps. You will soon realize that there are spots in the room where the bass is being canceled, and sounds weak. Then there are oher spots where it sounds great. I hope this helps - best, Joe

Thanks All,

Unfortunately I only have 2, wife imposed, options for sub placement which may be bad and or worst – or maybe dumb or dumber in my case. Anyway, the crawl around method seems pointless for me. There is nowhere to crawl the room is filled with furniture.

Another point of contention with me is the STSs sub volume. I have tried the Mantis10, and others, method with a SPL meter and the Radio Shack SLM but the meters are un-affected by increasing the STS sub volume – increasing the volume zero to full does not phase the meters. I can hear the difference, but the meters levels are un-affected. Am I missing something? I’m using the Marantz av7005 test tones. Are they not adequate?

Just another observation. If I had to do it all over again, I don’t think I would go with the Def Tec STS super-towers, or any speakers with built-in subs for that matter. It just seems to add a level of complexity that is not necessary. Sealed fronts with one or more sealed subs may be the ticket.

FlyBoy - not getting any change in the SPL level sounds a little odd. I've got a Denon 4311 and use OmniMic to measure my own SPL settings, but the principle should be similar for any AVR that can generate pseudo-noise test tones internally.

Here's what I did when I 'level matched' the sub and non-sub components of my Mythos ST and CS-8080, all powered and having internal 'subs'. I also have dediated subs which I use for the heavy lifting instead of the mains. Given your setup, I would think you're currently running your powered speakers on speaker wire. If so, here's what I did:
a) Turn Audyssey or other room correction software Off, and note your AVR's bass management, volume/trim and distance settings for the speaker to be tested, as well as the volume/trim and distance settings for your dedicated subs
b) Set this speaker to Large
c) Turn down this speaker's onboard sub volume (NOT the one in the AVR, the one physically on the speaker) to the lowest level possible
d) Run test tones for this speaker. Write down the trim level and distance (let's say it's set currently at -4.5 db and 18.0 ft respectively), and the observed db level (say you measured it at 71.5 db)
e) Unplug the subwoofer cable for one of your dedicated subs (I used Sub 2 on my setup, but I have two subwoofer preouts), and plug the subwoofer cable into the LFE input on your speaker. The powered speaker should be the only source connected to the subwoofer preout being tested (i.e. Sub 2) n your AVR.
f) Set this subwoofer input on the AVR to the trim and distance associated with the speaker being tested (-4.5 db and 18.0 ft here)
g) Now, run the test tones for that subwoofer (Sub 2 on my implementation), and slowly turn up the level on your powered speaker's onboard sub volume until it matches the observed db level you saw for the non-sub section of this speaker, which in this hypothetical example was 71.5 db.
h) You have now level matched the sub and non-sub sections of your powered speaker. Disconnect the sub cable from the speaker that was tested and repeat steps a) to g) for all remaining powered speakers.

Finally, plug your dedicated sub back into the sub preout that was tested, restore that sub's distance and trim settings, and the speaker bass management settings if desired. I would then rerun Audyssey or your other RC software so that the filters take into account the balance of the sub and non-sub parts of your powered speakers. Even if you're only running Audyssey XT rather than XT32, the adjustments should make the software work more efficiently for your powered mains.

FYI, when I did the level matching, my ST onboard sub volume wound up at 1:00 my left ST, 11:00 for my center CS8080-HD, and 11:45 for the right ST, which probably has to do with room modes before I ran Audyssey Pro on my own setup. I also don't think you need to exactly hit 75 db, since the critical thing is that the sub and non-sub components within each powered speaker are approximately at the same volume. You can always adjust your speakers and dedicated subs in the AVR trim later to hit 75 db across the board, of course.

Re your point about having second thoughts about the STS: I agree that the DefTech supertowers are harder to work with if you have dedicated subs and want them to capture the deep bass (< 40 Hz) that the STS or ST can't very accurately, vs. something like two-channel full-range usage. But since crossovers aren't brick walls, IMO the powered supertowers still do a great job of capturing mid-bass if they're tuned properly for multichannel and HT. It just takes more work than the DefTech manual or conventional wisdom would suggest.

Hope that helps.

Good luck,
Stuart
Edited by sdrucker - 8/28/12 at 10:11am

Personally I don't find the "Mantis10" method particularly useful. But I went with STS towers knowing the problem because the STS were one of the few speakers that made the aesthetics cut that had good objective measurements. I use them with dual subs and Audyssey.


I don't think so given the knowns and the unknowns. It helps to move the microphone very close to the driver but even then it's tricky without a measurement system.

Get close enough and let Audyssey (et.al.) take of the rest is my motto.

Hello Fly, thanks for your note. I would suggest a couple of things. Even if you cannot move your sub or subs, because the place they must go is fixed, you still have options. You may be able to move your main listening position just a bit. Even moving the sub or couch just six inches or a foot can sometimes make a big difference. Also the eq curves that we have built into the new SuperCubes, which are getting great reviews, can help with blending. It may also be helpful to contact Marantz customer service. As Mr. Drucker pointed out, it doesn't seem right that changing the relative level of bass coming from the speakers would have no effect at all on the SPL meter. A final thought is that the STS has gotten amazingly good reaction from customers and the press, even earning the 2008 "Audio Product of the Year" award. With any combination of speakers and subwoofer (s) in any particular room, it can take a while to get the last bit of performance out of that combination. But as so many on this site have noted, once you get that last bit of dial-in, the EUREKA moment can be pretty satisfying! Feel free to contact us here at DT if you want to work with me or one of our guys - info@definitivetech.com, or jfinn@definitivetech.com. Best regards, Joe

Is there some kind of ban now in effect for the mythos line in california?

I noticed a disclaimer attached to st description on bajawaverunner's store saying all orders from within california will be cancelled.

This has to do with formaldehyde emissions.