Yet another vinyl virgin turntable question... - Page 2

With all due respect...how can this even be considered a review, when the reviewer clearly states he hasn't tested it.

John

by the lack of replies, looks like you already have perfect posture.

I don't recall him stating that. Perhaps you could quote the relevant passage?

There is a clone of the 1200 with similar build quality, better sounding tone arm wire and a built in phono preamp (which can be defeated)and a rudimentary cartridge (wich can be upgraded). It's made by Audio Tecnica and it's called the PL 120. Best part of all is that it is available for less $$ than the Technics!

With a DD turntable, vibrations from the motor can make their way to the platter and be picked up by the cartridge.

A belt drive system naturally provides isolation between the motor and platter.

No one's questioning the 1200's accuracy or build quality, but there are much better sounding tables out there.

The main question is whether your system is capable of resolving the differences and of course, the law of diminishing returns.

The bottom line is you owe it to yourself to listen to the Regas, Music Halls, Denons and other tables.

If the 1200 sounds the best to you, go for it.

If you find one of the others sounds better, then that's the table you should buy.

Then that should show up in the rumble spec, no? And yet the 1200 has an excellent rumble spec, probably better than any belt-drive in its price class.

In my opinion, specs belong in the garbage. During my high school and college era (about 20 years ago), I worked at a small high-end shop for about 8 years. Things I leared:

1. Specs should be completely ignored. Only thing specs do is make it easier for the salesman to fool the customer into making them think their ears are misleading them because the specs say so! LOL!

2. Law of Diminishing Returns (as someone stated above). It costs a TON more to get a little better sound...and in many environments, it may not even be audible.

3. It's a shame how average customers believe and trust in their slaesman's advice rather than their own ears.

4. A customer says Amp A must be better than Amp B because the stats show a lower distortion on Amp A. My answer: Can you hear a rat pissing on a piece of cotton from 20 feet away?

The funnest part about working at a shop was that we got to test and play with all kinds of equipment. Testing speaker wire differences by doing blind tests, turntable vs. cd tests, testing a $5K amp vs. a $500 amp, etc. Needless to say, we learned alot about audio and some of the hype created by the industry.

Then there are the stereo reviews by the magazines. NEVER TRUST A REVIEW! EVER! These guys make a living off this work and will always have a bias due to "fees and perks" from manufacturers.

Personally, I like belt driven tables better than direct drive. Just using common sense, a motor that is directly coupled with a platter can cause more rumble than a motor that is separated from the platter. Also remember that bearings wear down slowly over the years. So while a direct drive may be perfect when new, as it wears, the noise from the bearings can show more and more as time goes on.

There are lots more to turntables than belt or direct drive. Quality of arm, cartridge, etc. all play a significant role. To me, the SL-1200 is a fine turntable meant for a DJ with it's very strong motor. But in my own home, it just makes sense to use a quality belt driven table. I'm actually looking for a good deal on a turntable right now (that's another thread).

So enjoy what you have, it's all a hobby! And always trust your own ears, not specs, reviews, or the salesman's words.

And what happens when our common sense turns out to be wrong?

I'd like to see more debate on this. When I went out to buy a table I listened to several. Looked at the quality of construction. Investigated phono preamps. And made a decision to buy a Rega P2. Frankly I didn't think or care one way or the other whether the tables I looked at were direct drive or belt drive. I'm not qualified or learned enough to discuss the differences. But it appears that there is some debate. A direct drive table does have the motor in contact with the platter which "could" introduce noise as it gets older. Belts stretch and I guess have to be replaced else the speed of the platter would slow down. But those simply occur to me as I think about it. It would be informative to read other's opinions on the differences, real or perceived.

I have rarely seen a belt drive turntable anywhere near the price of the 1200 that was even close to speed accurate and precise. You can see the variations easily with a test record and a scope. The 1200 and many other cheap direct drive tables are very speed stable, which, IMO, is the first thing that a TT should do correctly.

Good solid piece of equipment that will work flawlessly for many years...not trendy nor going to satisfy the esoteric crowd, but who cares.

Then you've learned something new! It's not a bad thing. Although I have not done a comparison testing on the 1200, I have done testing on other direct drives vs. belt. I have to say the belt driven turntables always sounded better to me, but I'd hate to say it was all in the motor as tone arm and cartridge quality can also play a significant role.

And to the person who stated belts can wear with time as well as bearings: would you rather replace a belt or a motor after 5 years?

Anyways, my preference for my home is belt driven systems for reasons I gave in my other response. Rather than being right or wrong, it's my personal preference. Your mileage may vary

Sadly, this appears not to be so.

Why? Because you said so? Sad would be taking someones word for it on a message board rather than trusting your own ears.

But you're the one whose common sense doesn't seem to square with reality. After all, you insisted that:

Given that this is demonstrably untrue for, at least, the 1200 and its belt-drive competitors, what does this tell us about:
1) your common sense, and
2) your willingness to learn?

Properly designed DD turntable has only one set of bearings - for platter. While belt driven one has two sets - for platter and motor. Also DD has only one source of rumble - platter itself, with main frequency at 33 or 45Hz (whatever RPM you use). If there is a separate motor, it serves as a second source of rumble with main frequency at several hundred Hz, which is much harder to suppress.

What makes you think it's solely the motor that's responsible for rumble and wow & flutter? There's belt driven units that have problems there too.

In DD turntable there is no motor per se. Platter is made turning by electro-magnetic field controlled by electronic circuit. You can compare it with magnetic levitation. The less moving parts you have in contact, the less noise is produced. Thus DD tables usually have less noise/rumble/distortion comparing with belt driven ones made with the same precision.

Does everyone agree with this characterization of the Audio Technica table? If it's the same or slightly better AND cheaper, should be a no-brainer for someone in the market for any variant of the Technics 1200 table.

It's not really in the same league.

I have never tested one, nor compared, but acording to the specs it is not as good. It does appear to either be a very close copy or that Panasonic is building it, likely to different specs to get it to the lower price point if they are.

Wow, this is getting seriously heated! If anyone has a quality turntable that they are willing to part with on the low, I am in the market...tight budget, however. Enjoying the sparring--keep it up!

Oh boy...here we go again. Most of what's in brochures, technical bulletins, "expert" reviews, and message board postings are either hype or jibberish. This works great on the average consumer who trusts the "experts" more than their own ears. The way I learned was by working at a shop and having a passion for audio/video. I don't take anyones word (specially on a message board where an audiophile's favorite turntable is a 1200 used by DJs).

As I said before, I spent many nights playing with various equipment. I believe in my own ears. I have never heard ANY mass produced direct drive turntable sound better than a quality belt drive unit. I stated reasons why I believe the belt drive can produce better quality sound. Until I hear a 1200 perform better than a quality belt driven system, I will not change my mind. An open mind is one who is open to testing and listening, not one that just takes someone's word for it.

That's like learning medicine in a laetrile clinic.


Yes you did, but your reasons are demonstrably wrong. I'm not saying that a "quality belt drive unit" can't sound better than a 1200—there are too many variables involved. But to claim that the 1200 has worse rumble than comparable belt-drives just blows your credibility in one go.

How seriously should we take the words of a hifi salesman who says that no turntable that was ever used by a DJ could possibly sound good? ;-)

BTW, when I was young I worked at a Hi Fi store, but I got over it. In order to pursue my love of audio more effectively, I obtained a degree in engineering. In the process I learned quite a bit about the laws of physics. That kinda ruined me for believing much of what I heard in Hi Fi stores.


I would hope that many of us have. Are you saying that is some kind of unique qualification that should make us believe what you say without questioning it?


I know better than to take my naive perceptions too seriously. I try to understand the technology behind things, and I know of ways to circumvent my prejudices and incorrect thinking.


Given the prejudices that you opened with, and the ones you add later on, I can see how you feel this way.


Are you familiar with the idea that so-called reasons may not in fact be resonable?


What about some other direct drive turntable?

Is there a possibility that your tightly-held opinions are affecting your perceptions?

Are there any reliable, unbiased reasons or facts behind your opinoins?


Seems like your mind is not exactly abundantly open.

I guess if the shop was doing any business there wouldn't have been so many nights where one had the time to play around.

I'll try to clarify with an example. There are sports cars and there are luxury cars. They are made for two different purposes. Is one better than the other? A luxury sedan wouldn't have any problems going around a race track, and a sports car would have no problems going cross country, and you can use it that way if you prefer. But sports cars will do better on the track than sedan's and the sedan will most likely get you cross country with less driver fatigue. You choose which you want to use for your purpose.


Oh, so you're a hi-fi salesman too! Guess we both spent our young days in the same manner. Not sure what you mean by "you got over it". Were you traumatized? Did your favorite amp clip one day?


So....engineers have better ears????? Funny thing is that they were just as easy to sucker as anyone else when it came to audio! One of my favorite courses in college was "Physics and the Sound of Music". It helped me understand how sound waves work, etc. But to say it made me into a better audiophile would be incorrect. I'm sure I don't have to tell an engineer that there is no specification that describes "quailty sound". And we won't even get into personal preferences.


Actually, I was encouraging everyone to listen for themselves and decide. One should NEVER take someone elses word for it. I jumped into this discussion with my experiences and thoughts, but I urge everyone to decide for themselves. This is a discussion board...right? Not sure where I ever said for anyone to believe what I say without questioning it.

Anyways, these discussions are getting way off track and becoming a pissing match instead. I'm not here for that reason.

Howard, not to speak for ArnyK, but he's also speaking to such issues as the importance of output level matching and evaluations that seek to control biases most of which are subconcious. His experience does not solely lie in the area of electronics as he has schooled himself in areas pertaining to human hearing...its capabilities, its limitations and so forth. In an area such as audio reproduction, to be more fully versed, one needs to embrace more than one area of study. So, ArnyK and others take a different approach to trusting their ears. They look to only trust the ears and to do what's necessary to level the playing field so that if there are sonic differences they're not due to trivial mistakes. When it comes to turntable/tonearm/cartridge evaluations...man all I can say is it's a bitch. You've got resonances to consider which can lead to hearing stuff that was never in the music to begin with yet may be pleasurable and there's just a paucity of reliable information when it comes to impartial characterization of the cartridge and tonearm for that matter with respect to its performance.
BTW, how's your own search for a TT working out?

I agree 100%. And that's just one problem. What we hear in the stereo shop may differ materially than what we'll hear in our own home based on room acoustics, and the rest of our equipment. Understanding the physics of sound and it's constraints can certainly help in making our choice.

If my memory serves correct, this thread started as comparing an SL1200 against a Rega for home listening. Then it turned into a general DD vs. belt discussion. I'm sure there are fine DD's out there as well. But given the choice between an SL1200 or a P3, I'd take the P3. It's just that the responses came out harsh and well, as many discussion go on the Internet, starts becoming a pissing match which can go way off topic.


I currently sent an offer to someone selling a used Clearaudio Solution. Not sure if they'll accept my offer. If they don't, I may go with the new Marantz. I prefer buying used if possible. This gives me a chance to test it out and if I don't like it, I can sell it for minimal loss. To really test out a piece of equipment, I need it in my own environment with my own equipment.

I do appreciate your help on the other thread. Thanks!

Got to watch out on the used stuff seeing as how some people aren't all that careful with the bearings and how they ship stuff. Me, I think it's a buyer's market right now. Might even be some stuff laying around various audio shops that aren't too 'high end' that can be had for a deal. Good luck hunting something down.

That's all fine and good, but if memory serves the SL-1200 was originally designed as a hi-fi turntable. There weren't any DJs to speak of in those days! When DJs started springing up, they found the SL1200 to be a good tool for them, too.


[/quote]Oh, so you're a hi-fi salesman too! Guess we both spent our young days in the same manner. Not sure what you mean by "you got over it".
[/quote]

What I mean is that eventually I had to chose between being a good technican and saying correct technical things about the equipment I sold as a teenage, or being a good salesman and shall we say moderating what I said to push the product.

Long story short I left the business and eventually obtained an engineering degree.


No, but maybe a few of my clients were! ;-)


LOL!



Trained listeners have better ears.


Now you are beginning to sound like me! ;-)


Actually there is, the problem is that it is unachievable at this point in the audio state of the art.


It is interesting how personal preferences tend to converge on accuracy.


Well, listening as done in audio stores is so bogus and generally irrelevant to home listening that I can't really agree with that.

Furthermore, as generally done at home, listening is influenced by so many things other than the inherent sound quality of the equipment that I can't really agree with that, either.


I don't know about that either. People who actually do the fairest, most sensitive possible listening tests should probably be listened to, given the difficulty of doing good listening tests at home or in a store.


Deciding for themselves is what people do, even if they decide to agree with other people's decisions. Therefore, I say that "I urge everyone to decide for themselves." is a truism, and therefore not all that helpful all by itself.


...right...


Whatever


This board is remarkably free of pissing matches for an audio board. HA is even better.