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2.4:1 Screen for “Bat Cave” with JVC RS20

post #1 of 74
12/31/08 at 11:02am
Thread Starter 
Goals:
- as big as reasonably possible while looking good
- able to be bright enough to watch TV (eg Superbowl) or kids animated BR/DVDs with some lights on
- (I realize these are competing goals)
- Get a screen (if possible) installed by the Superbowl (family coming over)

Room:
Link to my HT thread at AVS

-- Dedicated HT room - designed by Rives Audio
-- Dimensions: 22ft 4in x 17ft 6in x 7'7 height (ceiling diffusers hang 2.5-3 down)
-- Seating (planned) for 8 = 4 in front, 4 in back on a ~6 riser
-- Approximate screen-to-seat distance:
- Front row: ~11 ft
- Back row: ~16 ft
-- Bass traps, ceiling diffusers, and acoustic treatments throughout room
-- Room wall and ceiling color: Sherwin-Williams Warm Stone
Rack: Middle Atlantic WR-37-32
Power: dedicated 20A lines & house surge protection
- Electronics: Surge-X SEQ
- Projector: Furman M1500-UPS-PFP
- Mains/sub: Panamax M2A20
Projector (ceiling mounted): JVC RS20 (pre-ordered @ AVS) / Temporary: Toshiba 42XV540U Regza 1080p LCD 120Hz
Screen: ? 2.35:1 - brand, type, gain, size ?
Cable: SA8300HD
Receiver: Denon 5308CI
DVD: Oppo DV-980H
Blu Ray:Samsung BD-P1500 (profile 2.0) (future: Oppo BDP83)
Mains: Rocket Onix RS1000 Signature
Center: Rocket Onix RSC200 Signature
Side surrounds: Rocket Onix RSS300 dipole
Rear surrounds: Rocket RS250 MkII
Subwoofer: SVS PB12-Ultra/2 (rosewood)
Ethernet switch: D-Link DES-1024D 24-Port 10/100 Rack Mount
Game: Xbox with planned Xbox 360 (Jasper) in the future
Remote: ?? (considering Control 4 for lighting and HVAC control)
Researching: screen, HT seating, remote, DVR expander HD (WD 1TB coming soon?)
Pending: JVC RS20 projector

I have been reading the 2.35:1 CIH threads and screen threads - especially the High gain thread as well as the RS20 Screen thread.
I also was looking at the DaLite "JKP Affinity" HD Progressive and Enhanced Matte White screen thread, but that doesn't sound like what I need.

I think a higher gain screen might be helpful.

Screens I have thought of:
- DaLite "JKP Affinity" HD Progressive and Enhanced Matte White screen (gain 0.9 ?) - sounds like it won't work
- Da-Lite High Power (HP) (gain 2.8) +/- Pro Image horizontal masker (http://www.dalite.com/dalitehomethea...?product_id=15)
- other AVS quote "I have mine on ceiling, even tought i wont have the full 2.8gain, and i don't need it. What sold me to it is screen texture. the HP have virtually no screen texture. I tried a LOT of screen sample on my wall the the HP is the only one that wouldn't drive me crazy"
"the narrow viewing cone issue even seems to be over-stated. i think most will be pleased. my image seems bright and vivid to the point that i've been asked several times if there is big "tv" built in behind the screen. no one has ever mentioned a perceived change in the image as they move around or sat or stood."
REC eye level mount (vs ceiling) - but ok with ceiling too (BW supposedly better for ceiling)
- Stewart Studiotek (gain 1.3), others?
- Carada Brilliant White (BW) (gain 1.4) - AVS quote "If you're ceiling mounted, I'd 100% get the Carada BW."
- Vutec Silver Screen


What about (horizontal) masking systems for these screens - likely to add on later?

Please feel free to comment.
I realize huge and bright/detailed/etc are somewhat competing features to optimize.
My JVC RS20 should arrive on Friday and be installed next Wed, so I should be able to play around with it some (on the wall) to get an idea of screen sizes, brightness, etc.

Thanks.

Mike
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post #2 of 74
12/31/08 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
Bunch of notes below (not all referenced with links)...

"The Carada BW should be figured at 1.1 gain if you are ceiling mounting the PJ. The one sample I have does not meet their 1.4 gain rating with the PJ ceiling mounted. The BW has the best color and brightness uniformity I have measured. It causes virtually no color shift in the image. The image on a BW screen will benefit from making the surfaces in your HT dark colored and/or non-reflective. Because of its superb uniformity charectoristics it throws a lot of light onto the walls, ceiling and floor. This light will create some washout in the image if it is reflected back by light colored walls etc. If the RS1 matches its 700 lumen estimate, a 122"D (9' X 5') BW screen would yield 17 fL of screen brightness. Low bulb power would start you off at about 12-13 fL.

The SS is somewhere near 3.0 gain. Its an entirely different type of screen. Choose a screen size and gain that yields proper screen brightness. The BW and SS could not both be in contention at the same screen size because one would be almost 3 times brighter than the other.

The HP is only about 1.0 gain when used with a ceiling mounted PJ and thus you sacrifice its main advantage, high gain."


"It seems to me, that the High Power is the choice if:

1. You can mount the projector just above your head, or close to that position.
2. You sit no more than 1 or two seats to either side of the center position.
3. You need a screen that is wider than about 9 feet.
4. You need a screen that is a little less expensive.

For the Silverstar:
1. You need to sit more than 1 or 2 seats off axis, or have seating out to the sides.
2. You need to mount the projector more than a couple of feet higher than your head."


The advantages of the HP are:
Lighter on the wallet.
Available in larger screen sizes.
Better ambient light rejection.
Retractable screen option.

The advantages of the SS are:
Flexible PJ placement.
Much wider viewing cone.
Fixed frame screen looks very nice.

"Still, the success of the Dalite HP technology comes down to where your projector is in relation to the viewer's eyeballs. It's definitely right for some setups, it's definitely wrong for others. "Wrong" may be poor word choice, because the screen still offers a quality picture when viewed off-axis, but you're not going to take advantage to the high gain.

In my situation, the three center seats get a big gain pop. Huge. The two seats to either side are slightly less, but still brighter than the Carada BW.

And with lights on, it's light rejection ability blows the other materials away."


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1061038&page=68
YES, well not actually, Projector 101: Fit the screen size and projector to your customer's needs. Let's just run some numbers for a few typical AVS customers.

Customer #1: J6P
Use: Sports, TV, and the wife likes to watch chick flicks.
Needs 20 fL on the screen for football and decent contrast for flicks.
Screen size: 110" diagonal (~36sqft.) (gain 1)
Required lumens: 720
Projector location for maximum zoom, variable iris

Customer #2: Pedantic AVS technophile
Use: Obsessive test measurements and tweeking, wife has no idea that you can watch movies with a projector.
Needs: 15 fL on the screen period.
Screen Size: 77" diagonal (~17.4sqft) (gain 1)
Required lumens: 262
Projector Location: near minimum zoom and iris.

Customer #3: AVS (I want a monster screen) nubie
Use: Impress my buddies and amaze the ladies with the size of my screen, wife likes to watch chick flicks.
Needs: a big screen stupid! (13 fL, What's a foot Lambert?)
Screen Size 140" diagonal (58 sqft) (gain 2.8, we're talking High Power baby)
Required lumens: brighter than the sun, but will settle for 750.
Projector Location: max zoom wide open iris.


I may be a combo of all 3!



Da-Lite links:
http://www.dalite.com/products/selecting.php?viewMode=front
http://www.dalite.com/dalitehometheater/products/view_product.php?product_id=28

Da-Lite Cinemascope Sizes
Viewing Area (HxW)Nom. Diagonal
37 1/2" x 88"96"
40 1/2" x 95"103"
45" x 106"115"
49" x 115"125"
52" x 122"133"
54" x 126"138"


Thanks again.

Mike
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post #3 of 74
12/31/08 at 11:19am
I think Tryg would be proud of you. This is a great synopsis, from my understanding, lots of research/advice from sage owners and a little personal viewing of both in very different settings. I really encourage folks to personally experience both of these screens if possible before buying (and see them PROPERLY set up).
Again Mike, great job, IMHO.
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post #4 of 74
12/31/08 at 11:32pm
Thread Starter 
Wolvernole -
Thanks and Happy New Year.

I was looking on the Vutec website and saw a variety of products.
Anyone know the difference between these:
- Vutec Silver Star
- Vision X (by Vutec) SilverStar XWF

The Silver Star PDF isn't too informative in comparisons.

Vision XFT looks interesting for masking.

V SS
SilverStar is Vutec's patented front projection screen that delivers the ultimate in picture quality. This award wining screen provides high brightness, vivid colors, high contrast and a 180 degree viewing area, putting it in a class by itself as a truly revolutionary high-definition screen.


SilverStar's superior performance begins with it's innovative, patented technologya silver-based material combined with multiple optical layers to provide a gain of 6.0. This state-of-the-art technology increases color saturation while expanding contrast in either controlled or uncontrolled lighting environments.


SilverStar is custom made to order and can be multi-plexed for large theaters. With unsurpassed versatility, SilverStar is the screen of choice for home theater systems, retail displays, command and control, religious and educational venues.
*U.S. Patent No. 7,057,812

Features
  • High gain (6.0)
  • High contrast
  • Light control is not critical
  • Wide viewing area
  • Outstanding color reproduction: No Color Shift
  • Panels can be multiplexed for large presentations
  • Screen is fully assembled and shipped in wood crate
Options
  • Black velvet finished frame
  • Tubular stand legs
  • Custom sizes available
2.35:1 diagonal sizes - 129", 138", 153"


VX SS XWF info:
SilverStar XWF is Vutec's patented front projection wide-beveled frame screen that delivers the ultimate in picture quality featuring maximum detail, vivid color, higher contrast and a 180 degree viewing area. It is truly the high definition screen. p>

SilverStar XWF's superior performance derives from its innovative, patented technologya silver base material combined with multiple optical layers to provide a gain of 6.0. This increases color saturation while increasing contrast in either controlled or uncontrolled light.p>
SilverStar XWF is custom made and can be multi-plexed to form large theater sized screens to suit any requirement. SilverStar's versatility is virtually limitless, making it the ideal HD screen for home theater systems, retail displays, command and control, religious and educational venues.p> *U.S. Patent No. 7,057,812

Features
  • High gain (6.0)
  • High contrast
  • Light control is not critical
  • Wide viewing area
  • Outstanding color reproduction: No Color Shift
  • Panels can be multiplexed for large presentations
  • Screen is fully assembled and shipped in wood crate
  • 3 ¼" wide beveled black velvet finished frame
2.35:1 - in 129" size (only?)


I realize I could call the company, but I'm sure they aren't open today and would value AVSer opinions in any case.
I have heard the gain is not realy 6.0, but "high" and good for a ceiling mounted projector.
I did the online request for a SilverStar screen sample (8x10") and literature.

Thanks.

Happy New Year!


Mike
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post #5 of 74
1/1/09 at 12:56am
Thread Starter 
Email requests sent to Da-Lite, Carada, Vutec for screen samples.

Any comments on Carada Masquerade system?
Looks cool and while adds cost not the $10-15K for some other systems.

How about this MMS screen?

136 Inch Diagonal MMS Series Projection Screen - 2.35 to 1

THIS SCREEN IS MATCHED TO A MASQUERADE MASKING SYSTEM. IT IS NOT FOR SALE AS A STAND ALONE SCREEN


Projector Screen material attaches to the front of the aluminum frame by metal snaps.
  • Aspect Ratio 2.35 to 1
  • Viewing Surface Dimensions 125.1 inches wide by 53.3 inches high (as defined by Masquerade masking system)
  • Outside Frame Dimensions 132.5 inches wide by 59.5 inches high
  • Screen Surface Materials

  • Classic Cinema White Screen Material

    Our Classic Cinema White screen material provides an exceptionally wide angle of view, helping to maintain a consistent image from different seating areas. It has a gain of 1.0, and is most suitable for dedicated theaters with good ambient light control.
  • Brilliant White

    Our Brilliant White screen material has a gain of 1.4 for that extra bit of punch, with a minimal decrease in viewing angle. It is also a thicker, more opaque gauge of vinyl than our Classic Cinema White. With its higher gain, it is a good option for dimmer projectors, or in environments with some ambient light such as boardrooms or churches.
  • High Contrast Grey

    Our High Contrast Grey screen material has a gain of 0.8, and can improve your image's contrast by lowering the black levels. This material is a good option for digital projectors with less than spectacular contrast ratios.
Thanks.

Mike
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post #6 of 74
1/1/09 at 6:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Wolvernole -
Thanks and Happy New Year.

I was looking on the Vutec website and saw a variety of products.
Anyone know the difference between these:
- Vutec Silver Star
- Vision X (by Vutec) SilverStar XWF

The Silver Star PDF isn't too informative in comparisons.

Vision XFT looks interesting for masking.

V SS
SilverStar is Vutec's patented front projection screen that delivers the ultimate in picture quality. This award wining screen provides high brightness, vivid colors, high contrast and a 180 degree viewing area, putting it in a class by itself as a truly revolutionary high-definition screen.


SilverStar's superior performance begins with it's innovative, patented technologya silver-based material combined with multiple optical layers to provide a gain of 6.0. This state-of-the-art technology increases color saturation while expanding contrast in either controlled or uncontrolled lighting environments.


SilverStar is custom made to order and can be multi-plexed for large theaters. With unsurpassed versatility, SilverStar is the screen of choice for home theater systems, retail displays, command and control, religious and educational venues.
*U.S. Patent No. 7,057,812

Features
  • High gain (6.0)
  • High contrast
  • Light control is not critical
  • Wide viewing area
  • Outstanding color reproduction: No Color Shift
  • Panels can be multiplexed for large presentations
  • Screen is fully assembled and shipped in wood crate
Options
  • Black velvet finished frame
  • Tubular stand legs
  • Custom sizes available
2.35:1 diagonal sizes - 129", 138", 153"


VX SS XWF info:
SilverStar XWF is Vutec's patented front projection wide-beveled frame screen that delivers the ultimate in picture quality featuring maximum detail, vivid color, higher contrast and a 180 degree viewing area. It is truly the high definition screen. p>

SilverStar XWF's superior performance derives from its innovative, patented technologya silver base material combined with multiple optical layers to provide a gain of 6.0. This increases color saturation while increasing contrast in either controlled or uncontrolled light.p>
SilverStar XWF is custom made and can be multi-plexed to form large theater sized screens to suit any requirement. SilverStar's versatility is virtually limitless, making it the ideal HD screen for home theater systems, retail displays, command and control, religious and educational venues.p> *U.S. Patent No. 7,057,812

Features
  • High gain (6.0)
  • High contrast
  • Light control is not critical
  • Wide viewing area
  • Outstanding color reproduction: No Color Shift
  • Panels can be multiplexed for large presentations
  • Screen is fully assembled and shipped in wood crate
  • 3 ¼" wide beveled black velvet finished frame
2.35:1 - in 129" size (only?)


I realize I could call the company, but I'm sure they aren't open today and would value AVSer opinions in any case.
I have heard the gain is not realy 6.0, but "high" and good for a ceiling mounted projector.
I did the online request for a SilverStar screen sample (8x10") and literature.

Thanks.

Happy New Year!


Mike

The XWF has a wider frame, 3.25 inches instead of 1.5 inches, comes with a two-year warranty instead of a 1-year warranty, and is sold through fewer dealers.
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post #7 of 74
1/2/09 at 1:52am
Mike_WI:

A note from the "other Mike W" (as you noted in reverse on the RS20 "wish list" thread started by Lawguy: Maybe I should change my username to Mike_WA )

My RS20 should be shipping soon. Last week I saw the RS20+HP combo at Darin's place. He has a complete bat cave, and a 10' wide screen. All I can say is that the picture looked stunning on the segments of the two BD movies we watched, from Dark Knight (bank robbery scene) and Cars (opening few minutes). Plenty of pop and sharp. One of my goals was to determine whether I could see the screen texture, and if so, if it would bother me. I could see it on a test pattern (but much less so than with the Studiotek 130 (old version) that Darin put up. We compared them simultaneously using the same test pattern. During film viewing at times I could see the HP's texture slighly, IF I was looking for it, but if I was really just focusing on the film, did not notice it. I hate being pulled out of the viewing experience by noticing screen texture, and the HP happily didn't do it.

Shadow puppets could be seen on the black bars with widescreen content, and whether that's part of the tradeoff with the HP, I don't know. But if it is, in my view, it's well worth it. For a 10' wide image to have that kind of pop [with Normal lamp and, as I recall, I think the iris was clamped down all the way...or close to it) and to realize that as the bulb ages you can maintain that level of pop with the HP by opening up the iris and going to high bulb if need be, wow, that's a reassuring thought.

My screen will be substantially smaller, and when Darin reduced the image size to 8' foot (I'll be at 86" wide to 104" wide depending on the content) I did not find the image overly bright, even in his batcave. I am leaning toward the HP and then, of course, a masking system such as the Masquerade. I admit it's tempting to order a Carada BW MMS series so that it will be set up already to take advantage of the Masquerade. But the HP was very impressive and I've not seen a BW in action.

I've also noticed that SmX has a 4 way masking system with what looks like a frame and mask covering (velvet) that might be blacker and -- to speculate -- reflect less light than the Masquerade frame/mask material, which I believe is felt. But that probably only comes with SmX screens and likely would cost a heckuva lot more than the Masquerade system.

Mike W.
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post #8 of 74
1/2/09 at 5:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike W View Post

Mike_WI:

A note from the "other Mike W" (as you noted in reverse on the RS20 "wish list" thread started by Lawguy: Maybe I should change my username to Mike_WA )

My RS20 should be shipping soon. Last week I saw the RS20+HP combo at Darin's place. He has a complete bat cave, and a 10' wide screen. All I can say is that the picture looked stunning on the segments of the two BD movies we watched, from Dark Knight (bank robbery scene) and Cars (opening few minutes). Plenty of pop and sharp. One of my goals was to determine whether I could see the screen texture, and if so, if it would bother me. I could see it on a test pattern (but much less so than with the Studiotek 130 (old version) that Darin put up. We compared them simultaneously using the same test pattern. During film viewing at times I could see the HP's texture slighly, IF I was looking for it, but if I was really just focusing on the film, did not notice it. I hate being pulled out of the viewing experience by noticing screen texture, and the HP happily didn't do it.

Shadow puppets could be seen on the black bars with widescreen content, and whether that's part of the tradeoff with the HP, I don't know. But if it is, in my view, it's well worth it. For a 10' wide image to have that kind of pop [with Normal lamp and, as I recall, I think the iris was clamped down all the way...or close to it) and to realize that as the bulb ages you can maintain that level of pop with the HP by opening up the iris and going to high bulb if need be, wow, that's a reassuring thought.

My screen will be substantially smaller, and when Darin reduced the image size to 8' foot (I'll be at 86" wide to 104" wide depending on the content) I did not find the image overly bright, even in his batcave. I am leaning toward the HP and then, of course, a masking system such as the Masquerade. I admit it's tempting to order a Carada BW MMS series so that it will be set up already to take advantage of the Masquerade. But the HP was very impressive and I've not seen a BW in action.

I've also noticed that SmX has a 4 way masking system with what looks like a frame and mask covering (velvet) that might be blacker and -- to speculate -- reflect less light than the Masquerade frame/mask material, which I believe is felt. But that probably only comes with SmX screens and likely would cost a heckuva lot more than the Masquerade system.

Mike W.

Mike W -

Funny and great comments.
The Carada Brilliant White (BW) especially MMS with Masquerade could be the lazy way out (maybe the best also!).

I am still intrigued by the Da-Lite High Power (HP) and Vu-Tec Silver Screen (SS).
I emailed all those companies asking for samples yesterday.
By UPS tracking my projector is only a few towns away, so I should see it today.

Again, thanks for your comments on darins HP setup.
Question:
Was his projector ceiling mounted or on a shelf (etc) at near eye level.

The impression I get is:

- ceiling mounted - Carada BW better
- near eye level mounted & narrow viewing cone - Da-Lite HP better

Vu Tec - SS?

In your mind, are there any other screens that I should be considering?
You mentioned SmX.


Cheers,

Mike

PS - Dad, brother, and cousin are coming over Sun for the Vikings game, so we'll see how the projector works on the wall or a white sheet!
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post #9 of 74
1/2/09 at 5:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd View Post

The XWF has a wider frame, 3.25 inches instead of 1.5 inches, comes with a two-year warranty instead of a 1-year warranty, and is sold through fewer dealers.

Thanks!
XWF sounds like the higher end product then.
Mike
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post #10 of 74
1/2/09 at 5:44am
Thread Starter 
Updated "Top Contenders List":
- Da-Lite High Power (HP) (gain 2.8) +/- Pro Image horizontal masker - Stewart
- Carada Brilliant White (BW) (gain 1.4) - ? MMS with Masquerade
- Vutec Silver Screen (SS) XWF (advertised gain 6.0)

Others?
- Stewart
- Screen Research
- SmX


Any others high on the list?

Do people all agree with this?

The impression I get is:

- ceiling mounted - Carada BW better
- near eye level mounted & narrow viewing cone - Da-Lite HP better

Vu Tec - SS?

I just noted last night that the center pillar in my HT room is about 18.5 ft from front wall.
I could theoretically build a shelf (vs ceiling mount) to better optimize a HP screen, but I don't want to do to kids in the room, etc.

Mike

PS - I don't know if this thread is too specific for general consumption, but you guys are helping me a lot.
I suspect that there are others with similar questions that likely are getting some benefit as well.
In any case, thanks again!
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post #11 of 74
1/2/09 at 8:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Updated "Top Contenders List":
- Da-Lite High Power (HP) (gain 2.8) +/- Pro Image horizontal masker - Stewart
- Carada Brilliant White (BW) (gain 1.4) - ? MMS with Masquerade
- Vutec Silver Screen (SS) XWF (advertised gain 6.0)

Others?
- Stewart
- Screen Research
- SmX


Any others high on the list?

I am one of the many happy HP owners here on the Forum (126" diag, 16x9). I haven't seen the SS (except at CES), but many persons have commented on its distracting screen texture. So this is one thing you should look at carefully with the samples you receive.
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post #12 of 74
1/2/09 at 9:52am
Thread Starter 
millerwill -

Good to know!
Thanks.
Mike
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post #13 of 74
1/2/09 at 10:17am
I haven't seen the SS either, but since it is angular reflective with high gain I would also watch out for hotspotting. Especially if you like to watch sports. (HS can be quite notacible on big uniform areas like a soccer field or an ice-hockey rink)
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post #14 of 74
1/3/09 at 12:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Mike W -

Again, thanks for your comments on darins HP setup.
Question:
Was his projector ceiling mounted or on a shelf (etc) at near eye level.

The impression I get is:

- ceiling mounted - Carada BW better
- near eye level mounted & narrow viewing cone - Da-Lite HP better

Vu Tec - SS?

In your mind, are there any other screens that I should be considering?
You mentioned SmX.


Hi Mike:

Just wanted to give you a quick response that Darin's RS20 was mounted on a stand behind and slightly above the seats, so near eye level and thus maximizing the obtained gain from the HP screen. Also, have not seen the SmX screens so can't say anything about them, but there should be a SmX owner's thread in the screen forum. They specialize in acoustically transparent screens but have non-AT screens also.

I'll say more and respond to your pm Sat or Sun.
Best,
Michael
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post #15 of 74
1/3/09 at 4:46am
Thread Starter 
I just got my JVC RS20 yesterday.
I set it up temporariliy on a table about 18 ft from screen.
"Screen" = Sherwin-Williams "Warm stone" colored wall and a wood cabinet on one side
Out of the box with only "calibration" being focus -- it looks great.
I didn't play with the zoom initially and it was probably ~130" on screen.
Image looked much better in the dark but "watchable" with some light on in the room (as I read manual).

First movie - Cars with my 3 year old.

My dad came over and wanted to watch football in HD.
I was playing around with the settings and since I'm trying to determine screen size, thought I would just get ridiculous...I zoomed to about 140, the about (guessing) 180" diagonal.
It was literally taking up floor to ceiling.

While that size lost a lot in picture quality, it was not as ridiculously bad as I would have thought. It was a literal wall of TV.

I still haven't checked to make sure mine doesn't have a stuck lens shift mechanism.
That and HT seating shopping is on the agenda today.
(er and putting up a white sheet for "screen")

Mike
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post #16 of 74
1/3/09 at 11:48am
Mike-
We will anxiously await your thoughts on the RS-20. Your proposed set-up, as you know, is quite similar to mine...so I'd appreciate being able to "go to school" on your early experiences.
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post #17 of 74
1/3/09 at 4:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

Mike-
We will anxiously await your thoughts on the RS-20. Your proposed set-up, as you know, is quite similar to mine...so I'd appreciate being able to "go to school" on your early experiences.

WOLVERNOLE -

Thanks.
Your support and enlightened self-interest () is appreciated.

Vertical lens shift is stuck (as others have posted problems with), so I will be returning.

This is my first projector, so I'm still a little in "wow what a great big nice picture on my painted (and cabinet) wall" mode.

I'm sure I'll get more critical over time.

Right now I'm leaning toward the Carada BW with Masquerade.
Why?
My untested but AVS reading on...
- Da-Lite HP - not as good for ceiling mount
- Vutec SS - sparklies

Still undecided and awaiting screen samples.


Bummed that my JVC RS20 has a flaw.
I went to Time Warner Cable today to pic up additional HD boxes for my bar and gym and bummed that with DVR they cost $18/mon.
Argh.

Time to put down keyboard and mouse and get back to Walla Walla Syrah...


Cheers,

Mike
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post #18 of 74
1/4/09 at 11:04am
Thread Starter 
I noticed this on the Carada site...

"If you dont have total control of ambient light in your room, or your projector isnt quite as bright as youd like, then you may want to go with Brilliant White. Also, if you plan to hang your screen from the ceiling out away from the wall, then Brilliant White would be your best choice, as it will prevent excessive light from penetrating the surface and causing a glow on the wall behind." (bold added by me)

Because I have a cabinet on the wall I will need to hang my screen out away from the wall.

I also found out this morning that I may have some credit at Carada from a prize I won.
That would help push things toward Carada.

Mike
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post #19 of 74
1/4/09 at 11:46am
Thread Starter 
I realize I may be talking to myself a little bit, but I figure people can ignore this thread if irrelevant to them...

Running some numbers based on

HT Screen Size Calculator
http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?p=536299&posted=1#post536299

Carada 136 2.35:1 screen = 109 16:9 image with CIH

Theater Calculator (Carlton Bale)
http://www.carltonbale.com/home-thea...er-calculator/
2.35:1
136
1.4 gain
750 lumens
11 ft, 16 ft seats

Equals 22.7 foot-Lamberts

So, if 50% lumens (for calibration, lens aperture reduced,etc) -> 11.3 foot-Lamberts (too low)

Now - with an approximate 119 16:9 image on a white sheet (in dark and normal lamp mode) the image looks good but isn't super bright.

Is 136 2.35:1 too big?

The next sized Carada is 128 2.35:1 (= 102" 16:9)
Same calculations as above
@ 750 lumens -> 25.6 foot-Lamberts
@ 375 lumens -> 12.8 foot-Lamberts

Does using an ISCOIIIL lens change any calculations?
I assume brighter 2.35:1 image with it than without it?


Any comments?

Mike
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post #20 of 74
1/4/09 at 12:22pm
I'm considering a 106'' wide 2.40:1 cinemascope BW screen and have also been going back and forth with calculated numbers. However, it is really difficult to really know how many lumens one needs unless one has really measured a preferred brightness previously. How bright is 12 FtL? I have no idea. Also, if you have a batcave you should be able to get away with less. I have heard report of guys being stunned when they actually measured their brightness and found out that they had been perfectly happy with as low as 6 FtL.

Therefore I aim to first project on the wall and get a feel for the brightness at different sizes and also compare with a screen sample from Carada. If the brightness on the wall is ok and the screen sample is as least as bright, I'm ready to go.

Also bewere that the BW doesn't deliver the claimed 1.4 gain and is dimmer than the 1.3 gain Studiotek. Real world number from those who have measured the BW have turned out to be around 1.1.

With all this being said, I feel that 136'' might be pushing it, especially since you want to have some reserves to account for bulb aging. However, I suggets you try it on your wall first to get a feel for the size and brightness.

Good luck and please report back your findings!
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post #21 of 74
1/4/09 at 12:30pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

I'm considering a 106'' wide 2.40:1 cinemascope BW screen and have also been going back and forth with calculated numbers. However, it is really difficult to really know how many lumens one needs unless one has really measured a preferred brightness previously. How bright is 12 FtL? I have no idea. Also, if you have a batcave you should be able to get away with less. I have heard report of guys being stunned when they actually measured their brightness and found out that they had been perfectly happy with as low as 6 FtL.

Therefore I aim to first project on the wall and get a feel for the brightness at different sizes and also compare with a screen sample from Carada. If the brightness on the wall is ok and the screen sample is as least as bright, I'm ready to go.

Also bewere that the BW doesn't deliver the claimed 1.4 gain and is dimmer than the 1.3 gain Studiotek. Real world number from those who have measured the BW have turned out to be around 1.1.

With all this being said, I feel that 136'' might be pushing it, especially since you want to have some reserves to account for bulb aging. However, I suggets you try it on your wall first to get a feel for the size and brightness.

Good luck and please report back your findings!

Drexler -

Thank you for the comments.

I stated above:
Now - with an approximate 119 16:9 image on a white sheet (in dark and normal lamp mode) the image looks good but isn't super bright.

That said.
I really didn't (don't) have a good implicit sense of ft-Lamberts.
I plan to play around more on a white sheet and hopefully make some decisions.
In a completely dark room I could zoom out to "huge" and it was still "okay".
That was at normal lamp, fully opened aperture, new bulb, no lens shift.

I didn't realize the BW gain was only 1.1.

That would bring me back to considering Vutec, Da-Lite or others.

I just looked at the AV Science Store and didn't see Carada listed.
Anyone know if AVS sells Carada?

Thanks,

Mike
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post #22 of 74
1/4/09 at 1:07pm
The BW might still be a whole lot brighter than your sheets which I guess lets a lot of light straight through instead of reflecting it. I would order a sample and compare.

Carada is internet based and their screens can only be obtained from their website.
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post #23 of 74
1/4/09 at 1:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

The BW might still be a whole lot brighter than your sheets which I guess lets a lot of light straight through instead of reflecting it. I would order a sample and compare.

Carada is internet based and their screens can only be obtained from their website.

Very true!
The sheet is a very temporary measure!
About to watch the Vikings kickoff now!

I ordered samples from Da-Lite, Carada, Vutec.

Any Stewart recs?

Thanks again.

Mike
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post #24 of 74
1/4/09 at 3:32pm
Yea, I figured the sheets were for testing.

Regarding Stewart:

If money were no problem, I would get the Studiotek. However, since I still have monetary considerations, I am likely going for the much cheaper Carada BW.

Apparently the Carada is equal to (or even better!) than the Studiotek in color accuracy, lack of screen texture, hotspotting and viewing angle. The Studiotek though is a tad brighter, which can be very handy on large screens. For me though the difference is not significant enough to splash out the extra money (it would have greater impact elsewhere, for instance to upgrade my reciever or subwoofers).

The Firehawk is excellent if you have light colored walls or a little ambient light and gives you the best contrast. In other word superb in livingrooms. However it has a slight texture, is less bright and exhibits hotspotting. Therefore, if you have good light and reflection control, a white screen is a better option. (Especially the hotspotting is driving me nuts with my current screen...)

I don't really get the point with the Greyhawk. Not really contrast improving or ambient light rejecting like the Firehawk and it has a negative gain. For small screens paired with projectors without irises perhaps?
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post #25 of 74
1/4/09 at 3:55pm
Thread Starter 
I've been emailing with Carada multiple times this weekend.
Man, amazing customer service.
I won a "prize" at Home Theater Spot and they said they would either give me a free screen (whatever size, Criterion) or credit towards a Masquerade system if I bought a screen from someone else.
How cool!
Even if I don't get a screen from them, I have been highly impressed by their responsiveness.

And I just found out about that on Sat -- right when I was "in the mode" thinking about screens.

It's all coming together.
(Now just need to replace and mount my projector!)

Mike
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post #26 of 74
1/5/09 at 6:43am
I've been in touch with Carada for over a year. My HT project has been taking forever.

I simply have not encountered such good customer service anywhere, from any type of company I've dealt with, as I have had from Carada.
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post #27 of 74
1/7/09 at 7:51am
Thread Starter 
I'm still reading the Carada Masquerade thread (still on page 3-4), but I was wondering if anyone has done a review with pics on the install.

I need to build out my screen and masking system a few inches from the wall and it needs to be detachable to allow access to a electrical cabinet behind the screen (see my signature pics).

Thanks.

Mike
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post #28 of 74
1/7/09 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

I'm still reading the Carada Masquerade thread (still on page 3-4), but I was wondering if anyone has done a review with pics on the install.

I need to build out my screen and masking system a few inches from the wall and it needs to be detachable to allow access to a electrical cabinet behind the screen (see my signature pics).

Thanks.

Mike

Page 14

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post14914616
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post #29 of 74
1/7/09 at 9:32am
I'll chime in a bit too here. I'll echo the customer service from Carada. They do business almost like an old Mom and Pop store you're heard about from your parents in the good old days. I don't know that I've had any customer service that compares to theirs in recent memory. Top notch 100% all the way.

As for the screen you are looking at I have the same 2.35 136" screen you're considering. I'm in a "Bat Cave" setup too. I've got dark gray walls and a black painted ceiling and screen wall. Originally I had mine paired with the RS2 and was very happy with it. Due to financial circumstances I had to downgrade to a less bright VW60. I'm still very satisfied with the image. The VW60 is no light cannon by any means. However, it is more then adaquate to my eyes, and any other guests that have come over for a movie. It's not ideal but even though the numbers say it's not ideal, I can still watch and see football on my screen with the lights up. Granted it's not perfect, but it's not impossible to do either.

I have a feeling that if you're happy with a sheet on the wall though, you're probably going to have no regrets going with the Carada. The only big advantages I can see on the Stewart over the Carada are the ability to make it an AT screen, and a slightly brighter picture. However with the RS20's light output I don't think it would be that necessary to worry about brightness too much. Just throwing my two cents out there since I have the same screen. Hope it helps and doesn't add any confusion to your decision making process.
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post #30 of 74
1/7/09 at 9:59am
Thread Starter 
Emailing with David at Carada stimulated me to calculate some more numbers...

I noted a ~119" 16:9 "screen" (= thin white sheet hung up with nails and tape - ha! ) looked not bright.

Assuming a gain of 0.8 (which might be generous) the calculations are...
- 750 lumens => 10.8 ft-Lb
- 375 lumens => 5.4 ft-Lb

I realize that on the "normal" bulb setting that may be even lower and additionally these are all guessed numbers without measuring, but this gives me a better feel of what is too low.

That is, a 119" 16:9 screen with bad "screen" is too big (= 149" 2.35:1 screen) and approx. 10 ft-Lamberts is low.

(I don't know how to insert a Table so I made one in MS Word and copied to PDF -- see below).

I'm still waiting for my screen samples, which should help.
Missed the UPS guy today so exchanged RS20 is still roving around in a truck.

Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
I realize I may be talking to myself a little bit, but I figure people can ignore this thread if irrelevant to them...

Running some numbers based on

HT Screen Size Calculator
http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?p=536299&posted=1#post536299

Carada 136 2.35:1 screen = 109 16:9 image with CIH

Theater Calculator (Carlton Bale)
http://www.carltonbale.com/home-thea...er-calculator/
2.35:1
136
1.4 gain
750 lumens
11 ft, 16 ft seats

Equals 22.7 foot-Lamberts

So, if 50% lumens (for calibration, lens aperture reduced,etc) -> 11.3 foot-Lamberts (too low)

Now with an approximate 119 16:9 image on a white sheet (in dark and normal lamp mode) the image looks good but isnt super bright.

Is 136 2.35:1 too big?

The next sized Carada is 128 2.35:1 (= 102" 16:9)
Same calculations as above
@ 750 lumens -> 25.6 foot-Lamberts
@ 375 lumens -> 12.8 foot-Lamberts

Does using an ISCOIIIL lens change any calculations?
I assume brighter 2.35:1 image with it than without it?


Any comments?

Mike

 

Screen Size Table - 1-7-09 - sheet gain.pdf 11.763671875k . file
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