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please help with hdtv antenna selection

post #1 of 49
Thread Starter 
I attached my tvfool analysis. I bought a new Winegard 7697 antenna to put in the attic. I also purchased a new Winegard AP-8700 pre-amp. I plan to hang it from the rafters in the attic and point it at +/- 125 degrees. My roof is plywood (7/16") and asphalt shingles.

Will this setup work? Now I'm thinking I may have bought too big of an antenna but I'm getting different results from TV Fool vs. antennaweb.net.

How about the attic setup. I will only have one 50" Plasma HDTV hooked up to it. The HDTV has a built in tuner.

If the antenna is too big, do you think I could get by with the Winegard 7694 or 96? It is much smaller. Thanks!!
post #2 of 49
Thread Starter 
well for some reason its not letting me include the attachment from tvfool
post #3 of 49
Thread Starter 
post 3
post #4 of 49
Thread Starter 
here is the link to my tv fool analysis

http://s388.photobucket.com/albums/o...Radar-All2.png
post #5 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTMiller5782 View Post

I attached my tvfool analysis. I bought a new Winegard 7697 antenna to put in the attic. I also purchased a new Winegard AP-8700 pre-amp. I plan to hang it from the rafters in the attic and point it at +/- 125 degrees. My roof is plywood (7/16") and asphalt shingles.

Will this setup work? Now I'm thinking I may have bought too big of an antenna but I'm getting different results from TV Fool vs. antennaweb.net.

How about the attic setup. I will only have one 50" Plasma HDTV hooked up to it. The HDTV has a built in tuner.

If the antenna is too big, do you think I could get by with the Winegard 7694 or 96? It is much smaller. Thanks!!

Did you try the antenna without the amp? Your power levels are not "THAT" high, but it may overload a tuner....

Your aim of 125, should be pretty close, fine tune it from there as maybe needed....

What channels are you currently getting?
post #6 of 49
Thread Starter 
thanks for helping gjvrieze. I should clarify that I haven't installed anything yet. I ordered the equipment and its on the way. I want to install it this weekend. I just hope I ordered something that will work good. I should have found this site sooner.

Should I install the pre-amp to begin with or just what happens with the antenna? I hope the Winegard 7697 will pull in the signal in the attic.
post #7 of 49
Thread Starter 
thanks for helping gjvrieze. I should clarify that I haven't installed anything yet. I ordered the equipment and its on the way. I want to install it this weekend. I just hope I ordered something that will work good. I should have found this site sooner.

Should I install the pre-amp to begin with or just see what happens with the antenna first? I hope the Winegard 7697 will pull in the signal in the attic.
post #8 of 49
MTMiller, you selected an outstanding combo antenna in the 7697. I am concerned that you will have difficulty getting an antenna this size up into your attic and properly aiming the antenna. My signal strengths are very similar to yours and our locals are the same (30 miles) or further away (45 miles). I'm able to receive all my locals with a 4-bay DIY antenna in the attic. The antenna feeds two HDTV's with a single 2-way splitter and about 120 ft of cable run. I do not currently use an amplifier. IMO, the AP 8700 is way too much amplifier for your particular situation. I definitely would try it first without the pre-amp. IMO, the Winegard HDP269 is a better pre-amp for your situation (if one is used at all).

HTH.

Rick
post #9 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTMiller5782 View Post

thanks for helping gjvrieze. I should clarify that I haven't installed anything yet. I ordered the equipment and its on the way. I want to install it this weekend. I just hope I ordered something that will work good. I should have found this site sooner.

Should I install the pre-amp to begin with or just see what happens with the antenna first? I hope the Winegard 7697 will pull in the signal in the attic.

Ah, I was not sure reading your post, if you had an existing install or not...

I would not install the preamp first and see what you get, I doubt that it is needed, maybe like IDRick says, the HD269 would work better..... Test it out and see what works the best, the roof does cut the signals down, so the amp, might keep them strong enough for the cable runs....
post #10 of 49
Thread Starter 
Thanks Rick. I will try my setup without the pre-amp first and see what happens. I will just have to try the antenna and see if it will fit up in the attic. It may be tight.

Will it mess up the antenna if any of the elements touch wood? I will have to point it right at a corner of the attic where the roof joists meet. The tip should be at least 5' away though.
post #11 of 49
Touching wood has not affected signal strength or quality with my 4-bay but it is probably best to avoid. The 7697 is a great antenna but I would probably recommend a smaller antenna if you didn't already have one on the way. Gain increases with size in the 769x series and beam width decreases. You would have a bit more flexibility in aiming your antenna in the attic with a shorter antenna plus wider beam width.
post #12 of 49
Thread Starter 
Thanks Rick....that makes sense to me know. Luckily it is completely returnable if it doesn't work out. I will let you know.
post #13 of 49
Please do post back to the forum! It is very helpful to read success stories and/or challenges with antenna installation and tv reception. Gain specs tell you part of the story. Real world experiences tell you much more than simple gain spec tables.

All the best and may your installation be smooth and problem free!

Rick
post #14 of 49
Thread Starter 
Thanks I'll make sure to post my results as long as I can get the 131" monster up there to the attic. I can't wait to install it this weekend.
post #15 of 49
Thread Starter 
Well I installed my antenna today but I'm not happy with the results.

I'm getting only 50% strength on all major networks.

The Winegard HD7697 is a tight fit in the attic. Unfortunately at 125 degrees the antenna is pointing right toward the corner of the roof where their is a lot of wood. I'm not sure what to try next. It does have some wood approximately 2' in front of the antenna. I'm wondering it that could be the problem.

Should I try to return the antenna and purchase something else for the attic?

I haven't tried the pre-amp yet. Could that boost the strength up from 50%. Right now it is just 100' of RG6 QS. No splitters.
post #16 of 49
Hey MT,

Whew, big job getting that antenna up in the attic... Sorry to hear that the results were not quite what you hoped... Can you post some pictures so we can see what your up against in the attic? Can you give us dimensions of the attic space? Tell us about your fascia and soffits, is it all wood or is it covered with aluminum? If aluminum, is the antenna LOS above the aluminum? What is on the other side of the corner at 125 degrees? Is this corner above the roof line of your neighbors home?

You are losing about 5 to 6 dB with your 100 ft cable run. A pre-amp would give you a small boost in signal strength.

Best,

Rick
post #17 of 49
Thread Starter 
Thanks again Rick. I have been moving it around a little more and I've gotten a few of the signals up to 68%. Most of the signals are real good one second and real bad the next. When they come in, it is an awesome picture in HD. I'm watching the bowl game now and its coming in around 70%.

My roof and soffits are all wood (no aluminum at all). One of the channels 2.1,2.2 dropped off though - can't get any signal on them now. The antenna is mounted about 3 feet off the attic floor. My neighbors roof is about 50' away and it is lower than mine. No other obstructions on the other side of the roof.

I'll post pics tomorrow because its gotten dark now. Maybe the pre-amp would help but I kind of hate to open the 8700 because it would make it hard to return. Maybe when you see the pics you can tell if you think I need to send the 7697 back and try something a little smaller. I sure wish I would have found this website before I ordered. I really appreciate all of the help.

- Michael
post #18 of 49
Hey Michael,

I'm watching the game too... Go Gators! Nice reward for all your efforts to see the game in OTA HD!

Good info, thanks for answering questions. Pictures tomorrow will help us evaluate as well. Agree about holding off opening the pre-amp. View the pre-amp as covering distribution losses and giving some headroom. Finding the best positioning of the antenna is most critical aspect for right now.

BTW, what do locals say about WSB OTA? Pretty reliable? Is it broadcasting at it's final location and power or is it at a temporary location/lower power?

Best,

Rick
post #19 of 49
Thread Starter 
Rick,

Thats exactly what I was going to ask you about. See WSB is broadcasting digital right now on channel 2.1,2.1.

After the switch in February I wonder which station they will move to.

The Winegard 7697 is tuned for channels 7-69. I wonder if this is why I'm not getting a better signal on 2.1,2.2 right now and if it will get better next month.

I'm going to post some pics as soon as I can and play around with the location a little more tonight. If I can't get better than 80% from the majors with the pre-amp, I may see about exchanging it for a 7694 or 7695 and mounting that outside the house.
post #20 of 49
Your tv displays 2.1 but WSB is broadcasting on UHF channel 39 presently and will remain on the same UHF channel post transition. Tvfool may not be current if there are temporary changes in broadcast location and/or power levels. I suggest sending an e-mail to the broadcast engineer at WSB and asking about their situation. Also, I suggest going to the local reception forum and finding the thread for the Atlanta and asking there or search for issues with WSB. The url is: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...ysprune=7&f=45
post #21 of 49
The Winegard 769x series covers the correct frequency range for Atlanta. Both of your current low-VHF analog stations (WSB-2 ABC and WAGA-5 FOX) are now using UHF for digital (39 and 27 respectively), and both will stay UHF.

You also have two high-VHF analog stations (WGTV-8 PBS and WXIA-11 NBC) which are now using high VHF for digital (12 and 10 respectively) and will stay high VHF, with WGTV moving its digital signal to 8 after it shuts down the analog signal.
post #22 of 49
Hi, Michael. Rick asked me to stop by for a look-see... With an HD-7697, line of sight, TVFool noise margins like that and one receiver, the Atlanta stations should be booming in with no amplification. Some observations and suggestions:

* Wooden surfaces aren't an issue unless the antenna is actually touching them or, worse, some of the elements are distorted up against the wood. I've got an attic-installed VHF-high rig with the front end of the boom much closer to a rafter than 2 feet, and have no issues with it.

* What was used to lash the antenna to the rafters? Nylon or natural-fiber string, twine or rope is best; metal wire or cable might interfere with antenna function.

* Is the antenna pointed correctly? The vertical UHF corner reflector should be "open" toward the signals @ 125 degrees. If not, the antenna is installed backwards. This is a very common error.

* Are the antenna boom and elements close to level? Tilting the boom upward a couple of degrees from back to front won't hurt anything. Avoid tilting the boom downward. The elements on both sides of the boom should always be level; stand directly in front of either end of the boom to check for this.

* How about roofing materials? Asphalt shingles aren't much of a problem, but tiles or standing-seam steel or copper block signals.

* Does the roof have a radiant barrier, common to newer construction in your part of the country? Made of aluminum, these barriers block convection, conduction... and radio signals.

* Coax cable/connector damage can cause symptoms like this. Check for pinches, permanent kinks, outer-jacket punctures, etc.

* Run the downlead as straight as possible. If there's any slack because the run was less than 100 feet, don't leave any of it coiled up. Coiling might cause issues with some channels. Run the lead in a broad curve around the attic if necessary.
post #23 of 49
Thread Starter 
Thanks, these are all great tips. I'm going to take photos this evening to post.

My cable is RG-6 QS with Compression Connections. The cable length only needs to be about 25' - 50' but I have it temporary ran straight from the attic to my HDTV and I'm using the full 100' run. It is coiled up substantially since its a temporary connection so I'll have to staigthen it out.

I do have one or two elements touching wood so I'll check that as well.

I have a Winegard AP-8700 pre-amp new in the box but I haven't hooked it up yet. I'm thinking I'll try that this evening as well.

The antenna is hung from the rafters at the front and back by mason's twine.

I'll have to double check to make sure it is level. I think I have it really close. I have all asphalt shingles and the roof does not have a metal radiant barrier. I've had to replace some of the shingles and its just tar paper below.

I'm using a good magnetic compass to point the antenna to 120 - 130 degrees. I believe it is pointed correctly by the pictures in the owners manual.

One thing to note is the descripancy in the signal at my address between tvfool and antennaweb. Antennaweb says I have blues and violets and need a large directional antenna while tvfool shows many signals in the green to red range. When I ordered the antenna, a went with the antennaweb recommendation because it was the most conservative.

I'm sure glad to get all of this help. I'm sure we will figure it out.
post #24 of 49
Thread Starter 
Well here is a link to some photos to show what I'm dealing with in the attic.

http://s388.photobucket.com/albums/oo321/MTMiller5782/


When I got home I unwound the coax and that helped the signals about 10% right away (thanks for the tip Don).

I decided to go ahead and try the winegard ap 8700 pre-amp and reposition the antenna a little bit (moved it up closer to the corner of the roof a little).

Here are my results so far:

WSB 2.1 = 90%
WSB 2.2 = 92%

WRCB 3.1 = 32%
WRCB 3.2 = 30% (Don't really care about these - don't know what they are)

Fox 5.1 = 70-90% (signal is very clear but strength is moving around)
Fox 5.2 = Same as 5.1

WXIA 11.1 = 71%
WXIA 11.2 = 71%

ION 14.1 = 100%
QUBO 14.2 = 100%
ION Life 14.3 = 92%
14.4 = 92%

Peachtree 17.1 = 40-70% (signal ok but not great - goes in and out)

GPB 18.1 = 85% looks good but background noise present

WPBA 30.1 = about 50% comes in and out

34.1 = 65%
34.2 = 60%

WATL 36.1 = 88%

WGCL 46.1 = 75-95%

WATC 57.1 = 85%

WUPA 69.1 = 75%

I would like to improve the signals a little more if possible. Some of the good networks are breaking up. Picture will be perfect one second and then go out and come back in again. Anything else I can try? What is a good solid signal strength?

Tomorrow I will cut the 100' coax down to about 30' for the permanent wiring. I'm hoping the smaller run will help the signal too.

I believe I have the antenna pointed about 135 degrees now. It is highly sensitive. A little move and the signal jumps all around.

I'd really like to achieve 85% or better on all the major networks. I'm wondering if a smaller antenna would help so it would have a wider beam instead of a strong narrow one. Anyone have any recommendations. I'm 30 miles north of atlanta and the terrain is fairly hilly. Antennaweb says I need an antenna for blue and violet but tv fool is showing my address getting pretty strong signals.

Thanks for all the help!!

Michael
post #25 of 49
Thanks for stopping by Don M!

From the primer: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

Attic antennas

If an indoor antenna is not as reliable as you want, an attic antenna is the next step up. If you are in a neighborhood with moderately strong signals, an attic antenna might work. But you are wasting your time installing an attic antenna in a poor-signal neighborhood. Most successful attic antennas are within 20 miles of the transmitter. (30 miles often works if you are on a hillcrest.) The problems with attic antennas are:

1. The antenna might not be high enough above obstacles outside the house such as trees.
2. It is hard to estimate the signal loss caused by the wood and other construction materials.
3. Metal objects in the attic can block the signal.

Estimating the signal loss in ordinary construction materials requires knowledge of their water content. Exceptions are aluminum siding, stucco (which has an embedded metal screen), and foil-backed insulation, all of which totally block all signals. Concrete and most bricks have moderate water content, but their thickness is enough to block all signals. In a desert, plywood becomes so dry that it causes no signal loss at all, even for UHF. In any other place, there will be some moisture. Exterior wood is generally always wet inside, especially in north facing surfaces. (Paint does not prevent this.) The amount of water varies with the weather. Dry asphalt shingles are mostly transparent to TV signals, but the way they overlap encourages water to persist between them. The vapor barrier is often wet on one side or the other. The bottom line is that there is no way to predict the signal loss in these materials. It is usually a mistake to point an antenna through a surface that gets totally wet in rain.

Metals reflect signals. A metal object 8 inches long is big enough to reflect UHF. Smaller objects, such as nails, are of no concern. Wires and metal pipes effectively reflect VHF, as do plastic pipes containing water. If these reflecting objects are positioned to the side, to the rear, above, or below the antenna, they will have little effect on it, provided they are not too close. These objects should be further away than 2 feet for UHF, 4 feet for VHF-high, or 6 feet for VHF-low, and an even larger separation will help a little. (Some might wonder why these numbers are not proportional to the wavelength. It is because the lower frequency antennas are lower in gain. An antenna’s aperture depends on the gain as well as the wavelength.)

There should be no horizontal or diagonal wires or pipes in front of the antenna. A perfectly vertical metal vent pipe is invisible to TV signals, but its flashing at the roofline might not be.
post #26 of 49
Thread Starter 
yea I guess my signal may be about as good and its going to get without taking the antenna outside. I'll try the more permanent shorter coax wiring tomorrow and tweak the antenna a little more to see if I can get it any better. Any slight move and it makes a drastic difference it seems.

Is their another smaller antenna you would recommend that I could mount outside? I prefer the Winegards because they seem to be durable and they are made in the USA. I know the 7697 is probably a great antenna but it is hugh! My homeowners association will kill me if I mount it on my roof. I know I can legally mount it outside whether they like it or not but if another smaller antenna such as the 7694 would give me a good picture outside that would be helpful.

In theory I guess the 7694 outside would only have to be about 1/2 the strength of the 7697 in my attic to get the same signal since several articles state an attic reduces the signal up to 50%

- Michael
post #27 of 49
Michael,

Nice summary! Your hard work is paying off!

The signal strength values include the pre-amp, correct? Are you only feeding one tv or will feed multiple tvs? If more than one, tell us how many splitters, tvs, and length of cable run. By my calculation, your pre-amp is about right for an attic install but would be too strong if the antenna is out on the roof.

Should you go to a smaller antenna such as the 7694... Tough call. You've probably tweaked placement about as much as possible. Benefits of switching to smaller antenna are probably not very large... IMO, the smaller antenna probably would have worked as your initial antenna but probably not worth the effort to switch out.

Attic or roof. You really only have one vhf-high that is a "gotta have" and that is ch 10 (11.1, NBC). The other vhf-high is a repeat PBS and you're not picking that one up anyways... You're losing approximately 13 dB with an attic install. You could consider a Channel Master 4228 HD as a possibility for the roof. It has moderate gain in high vhf. In your case, there would be a net gain with a roof install in high vhf (difference in high vhf gain between antennas is less than the gain improvement with a roof install). If you go with a roof mount, I would suggest the 4228 HD (smaller than the 7694).

Don M is my "go-to guy" and I'm guessing he will be by soon to give his comments as well.

Best,

Rick
post #28 of 49
I doubt the homeowner's association is going to notice the difference between a 7694 and a 7697. Bringing it outside the attic will likely make a big difference; it's not just the loss though the attic walls but the various reflections indoors.
post #29 of 49
Thread Starter 
Thanks. What signal strengths are considered "good"? Is 85% a consistent good signal or do I need to try to get them in the 90's.

Rick I like the 4228 HD idea outside. I did go to the atlanta hdtv forum as you suggested and a lot of those guys have had good luck with the 4228 in the atlanta market. I like the smaller size too.

I'm going to play with it a little more today and make sure its as good as its going to get in the attic. I may move it one more time.
post #30 of 49
Good morning Michael,

It is great to have signal strengths in the 80's or better. In my case, one of my stations averages 53% and drops to mid 40's on bad reception days but no video dropouts and signal quality remains at 100%. It is a lower power station and would go up to the 70's if my antenna were on the roof.

Have a great day!

Rick
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