2009 Panasonic 12G Plasma Line-Up - Page 9

I know what you mean. Lamp hours are meaning less unless your flat panel is on display 24 hours. That is not the case for many people like us.

Chris

Hi All,

May I ask if these new Panny's really will be behind the black levels of even the G8 Kuro Plasmas? The reason I ask is that the very highly respected testing site "HDTVTest" (whom most regard as the reference source for unbiased testing of HDTV's) measured G8 Kuro Black Levels at 0.03 cd/m2. Various G11 Panasonic models had Black Levels measured at between 0.04 cd/m2 and 0.05 cd/m2 so there was very little in it indeed. HDTVTest quotes for example:

"Measured post-calibration black level on the Panasonic TH42PZ85B plasma TV was 0.05 cd/m2, i.e. on par with the TH42PX80 but a shade lighter than the 0.03 cd/m2 delivered by the Pioneer Kuro PDP-4280XD, although to be honest the difference is probably only visible through a side-by-side comparison in a totally dark room."

The Panasonic TH50PZ800 has a black levels measured at 0.04 cd/m2.

Based on the above, I would be very shocked and surprised if the new G12 Neo-PDP Panny's with all the new tech and a native contrast figure of 40,000:1 is not even able to up the ante by a mere 0.01/0.02 cd/m2. I would have expected them to blow way past that and I had originally thought that the new Panny's would have black levels in between the G8 & G9 Kuro's which kind of seemed logical.

Based on the figures given by HDTVTest and the apparently great improvements that the G12 Panny's are supposed to bring over the G11's, is it reasonable or even possible that the G12's will only bring such a extremely marginal improvement in Black Levels? If I have assumed anything or made any errors please excuse me - I am nowhere near as knowledgeable as most folks here but am endeavouring to learn!

Bazzy!

And a major electronics component, regardless of brand, is far more likely to fail long before the glass half life span becomes an issue.

Is it just me or is the V series damn sexy? I absolutely loath glossy panels but I think I could be talked into this beautiful glassy beast!

Good question.
Its one I really need to know the answer to.

I have been looking forward to the release of these neo-pdps and contemplating getting one.
But I am a black level fiend. I have to have inky blacks. there is just no doing without them.
I was very happy with my 8G blacks and loved them.
That is, Until I got a 9G.
Having a 9G may have spoiled me a little. So I seriously doubt I will be considering a neo-pdp if the blacks arent at least close to 9G levels.

Don't get me wrong, some of the features of the Neo's sound awesome!
Like the extra brightness and wireless hdmi, thinner, perfect motion resolution, etc.
But Blacks matter more to me than all those.

Maybe we will get the official numbers on the neo's MLL soon.
Until then, It looks like I will wait till the 10G kuro.

I guess every TV that I've ever owned has infinite black then. All I have to do is turn the power off in a darkened room. Except the new Panasonics do it for you. I'm sorry, but that has to be one of the biggest loads of garbage I've ever heard from marketing. It goes right up there with Panasonic claiming a 1,000,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio. I'm not downing the Panny's either as I haven't seen them. However, this kind of marketing is intentionally deceptive and misleading to the consumer.

My feelings exactly. If the black levels were slightly behind the 9G and other aspects are better on the Panny in a 65" model at an attractive price I would consider it. But having to take a step backwards in black levels would be a tough thing. In most cases the 9G satisfies. However, after recently watching the Dark Knight there's still some room for improvements.

I totally agree.
When I read this article,
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-19167_1-101...?tag=mncol;txt
I saw where it reads "they have "infinite black" .
It confused the mess out of me.
Then I realized what they were talking about.

what a bunch of marketing bologna.

I think the 3-times brightness will go a long way for alot of people though.
I remember you saying that you would like a brighter picture for your taste, and this is deifintly a step in the right direction.
Its just too bad that we still (in a way) have to choose between deep blacks and a bright panel.

I would be interested in seeing how much improvement the higher average brightness does for overall PQ.
Being that the whites will be brighter, it may help the blacks seem more dark.

I just watched a video from CES and a guy was holding a quarter up beside one of the neo-PDP models.

The Plasma panel was actually thinner than a quarter!!

Now thats thin.

Imagine not having to call your buddy to help you move your plasma.
Just be sure not to drop it. I bet its pretty fragile at that thickness.

Yeah, that's the prototype model; I believe it is an Neo PDP ECO, in Panasonic's marketing Parlance.

As thin as it is, it is blown away by the LG OLED. That thing is barely a milimeter thick, and I think it would be even thinner without the bezel. Of course, that is a 15" screen and we are talking 50" HT sized screens with the Neo PDP and Neo LCD.

Hi Bazzy!

Seems like Panasonic has been quite honest with native contrast numbers. G11 has brightness spec of 1200cd/m2(super low APL).


I expect that G12 black level will be 0.03cd/m2 or even below that.

Which in turn is blown away by even the slightest breeze!!

I am so glad Panasonic got a plasma down so slim, now all I need to know is price and contrast specs. If it is right, it might be time to replace my 8G Pioneer.

LOL! This is why you should not leave the windows to your HT room open - your display might just blow away! Similarly, no watching OLEDs outside!

0.03 cd/m2 is for 4280xd but the measure of full-hd models (lx508d and lx5080d) was 0.015 cd/m2 and i guess we are talking about lx models when we refear to 8g black level


Using the Macam L203 Photometer, we measured idling luminance (which also represented the calibrated black level) on the Pioneer PDP-LX5090 Kuro plasma to be 0.0031 cd/m2. This comprehensively smashes the previous black level record held by its predecessor the PDP-LX508D (0.015 cd/m2) if we discount the Samsung F96 LED-driven LCD TV which is capable of delivering 0 cd/m2 blacks but only when there's little to no content on screen.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Pioneer-PD...alibration.htm

If the '09 Panasonic really are twice as bright as their predecessors, have near-perfect motion resolution and have Pioneer 8G-ish blacks, then they sound like very compelling displays. I honestly don't have any issue with my 8g Pioneer's black levels. They are close enough to perfect for me.

I'll believe that Panasonic has eliminated flicker problems when I view it myself.

If they refresh at 60 instead of 48 then all they've done is eliminate flicker and do nothing about judder.

Just because Panasonic claims that they've took care of the problem doesn't mean that they've actually done so.

Given that last year's models were a flicker disaster it doesn't surprise me that Panasonic would try to put a ban-aid on the problem.

I still think that 48 refresh just won't cut it! Pioneer's 72 refresh is fast enough so that you don't perceive flicker--I don't believe that 48 is fast enough.

And I think that Panasonic is more than willing to cut corners wherever it can to keep their prices lower--I can understand that--it does though make me dubious that they've solved the flicker problem.

If they can't even match the 8Gs when it comes to blacks--I doubt very much that they can match any Pioneer set when it comes to flicker.

I wish I could view a 72 refresh Pioneer receiving 1080p/24 material and a Panasonic 48 refresh set receiving the same 1080p/24 material.

Hopefullly neither would evidence flicker but I'd have to see it to believe it.

By the way does anyone know if ANY manufacrturere at CES has exhibited any Plasmas that can refresh at 72 besides Pioneer?

Are any planned?

I wonder how much cheaper 48 refresh is than 72 refresh?

Thank you very much sir
I know, but I wasn't talking about ISF, I was talking about IFC: Intelligent Frame Creation, the frame interpolation function that was featured in last year's 85 and 800 series. It seems they got rid of that completely in the new lineup, which would be a shame in my opinion..

Hi,

Thank you for that indeed! It does shed more light on the matter! The G8 Kuro's then can be said to be between 0.01cd/m2 and 0.035 cd/m2 better than the G11 Panny's. If we take the greater margin, I am still surprised that yet another year afterwards, with all their R&D boffins working like crazy and all the advancements in tech, that Panasonic still cannot (assumed) surpass G8 Kuro levels let alone match G9 levels! They were still within a stones throw with the G11 against the G8 Kuros but I kind of assumed they would be able to maintain or exceed that when it came to the G12 Neo-Pdps and the G9 Kuros. I guess we will all have to wait and find out once they are properly reviewed to see how well or badly they do but it;s going to be a long wait!

Bazzy!

Silly for sure, but it's likely just a response to the LCD manufacturers. By many accounts, Samsung's Mega Contrast 2,000,000:1 Ultra Slim Luxia LED's (B6000, 7000, and 8000), are all Edge Lit global light sources--not locally dimmed. If true, they will likely not differ from what CCFL's could accomplish with the same panel--save for maybe more gradations in Global Auto-Dimming schemes that most CCFL's already employ. Maybe they didn't expect Vizio, Toshiba, and LG to come out swinging with full on LD LED's as early (and cheaply) as they're claiming to. Maybe they were hoping to keep it an ultra premium boutique feature with a single Fall model and price controlled premium. Or maybe they did and are hoping to cash in on the LED buzz and consumer stupidity with (what could be) a deceptive and inferior implementation. All just conjecture at this point though, they really need to get official with the details. It's all so suspiciously vague.

Are all of these NeoPDPs supposed to be 3 times brighter? The Z1 series lists as being brighter but it's not mentioned in the press release on the other models.

When I'm not watching movies I leave the lights on so for video games and TV the amount of deeper black I would lose probably wouldn't mean much in those circumstances (assuming Panasonic tinted their glass). But it will be noticable in movies which is most important to me. Probably on many scenes if the brighter is increased the perceived black levels may not change much as black bars on the 8G were still pretty dark. Dark scens is where it will be most noticable.

The added resolution in movement may nice as well. Not to mention 65" will be a slight upgrade in size. I guess it just all depends on how much better these NeoPDPs look over current plasmas.

Time will tell I suppose. Hopefully we'll have news/pricing on the 10Gs when the 65" V10/S1 series NeoPDPs are released.

It's not that they tried and simply weren't able to match the 8G. If they wanted they could have easily crushed the 9G blacks with the new Neo tech. It's just that would make a much more expensive display. And Panasonic wants their prices to be suitable for the mass market, not just an exclusive niche that has a lot of money to throw around.

But as others have said, perfect motion resolution, 3x brightness, THX, and near 8G Kuro blacks sounds like a fantastic display for a relatively cheap price.

I'm confused. Are these Neo PDPs' coming out this year? I was watching G4's coverage and this guy said we would have to wait 18 months for it to hit the marketplace. He was talking about the one that's 1/3 of an inch and mentioned that it would be brighter.

Exactly! These sound like great panels for folks out there and they should sell like hotcakes if priced right.

The performance claims that Panasonic is making about the Neo PDP lineup sound fantastic; However; we still need to see how they actually perform and measure up, in the real world.

Since Panasonic has tried to promote their" Infinite Black Panel" label for them, and it has turned out to be that the damn sets just go black when there is no signal to the screen, I would recommend that we not take all their other claims at face value. Trust but verify. Wait until some independent experts have put them through their paces, before putting your unreserved stamp of approval on them.

Keep in mind that this 5lumen, NeoPDP product is a major reworking of the technology. As of now, all we know is what Panasonic is telling us.

Keep in mind, when Microsoft was rolling out Vista, to replace XP, they extolled all the virtues of Vista, and how much superior it was going to be to XP.

Just a word of caution. Wait and see how the NeoPDPs perform. Such a major redesign, might also introduce some unforeseen problems, in it's first release. I hope not, and I hope that it will be everything that Panasonic claims it is, but when did real end user experiences ever live up to marketing BS.

Yeah a good question is when will these sets be available. i heard this year they are supposed to have a 54in. which would be perfect for me. If anybody knows street dates please let us know.

There's a lot of information in the thread about announced and expected release dates.

This is a good place to start.

Here is some more information on the 2010 prototype.

http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=16803

Definitely Panasonic marketing is doing a poor job of communicating with the public.

All 1080p 2009 Panasonic Plasma will be using NeoPDP panels which means their luminance efficiency are 2 times better than the 2007 PZ750 panels (Whenever Panasonic compares the luminance level they are always referring to the first generation 10G 2007 1080p panels). The Z1 is the thinnest of the 2009 panels at 1" or 25.4 mm thick.

The prototype 50" 8.8mm thick panel uses "NeoPDP eco" technology whose luminance efficiency is suppose to be 3 times better than the 2007 10G panels. We probably have to wait for 2010 before the "NeoPDP eco" appears on the market.