or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Flat Panels General and OLED Technology › 30fps gaming at 60hz and the effects of frame doubling?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

30fps gaming at 60hz and the effects of frame doubling?

post #1 of 72
Thread Starter 
Let me start this thread by stating that I've owned several LCD TVs recently (samsung, sony, a few others) and now am enjoying my 42" Panasonic Plasma (42PZ80U) as my primary gaming screen (mostly XBOX 360, some PC gaming).

What I have noticed with the Plasma (something I didn't initially even see with LCD - more on that in a minute) is that while running a game that operates at 30fps introduces "image/frame doubling." Bear with me as this is apparantly NOT the same as "ghosting" i.e. motion blur. When I first noticed this, shortly after firing up the Plasma and playing a game (GTA4 for 360 specifically), I thought it WAS motion blur/ghosting (I know this game incorporates motion blur - but this doubling effect is seen even when your character is standing still and you pan the camera in circles). But then I thought, wait a second, Plasma is inherently supposed to be much better than LCD when it comes to motion handling. As in no blur. What I was seeing did in fact look like blur. But upon closer inspection, it appeared that what I was seeing was not blur, but in fact image doubling. After some research (there was only a tiny bit of info about this phenomenon on the web, not much info to go off of), I decided to see if this was an effect of playing 30fps content on a 60hz refreshing screen. I did this by running World in Conflict for PC (this game allows numerous graphical tweaking, framerate capping, and a demo mode which reports your fps live and averages the framerate at the end of the demo). Now, my for my PC, I have a 24" widescreen LCD monitor with a 4ms response time. This is my baseline for comparison to the Plasma, as I don't have a CRT monitor/TV anymore. Results are as follows.

30fps on LCD @ 60hz: Moving images appear to double. Slight motion blur due to LCD response time.
60fps on LCD @ 60hz: Moving images are not doubled. Smooth movement. Slight motion blur due to LCD response time.
30fps on Plasma @ 60hz: Moving images appear to double. No motion blur detected.
60fps on Plasma @ 60hz: Moving images are not doubled. Smooth movement. No motion blur detected.

It appears that, using this game as a testing ground for different framerates, that any game (I assume other content as well) displaying at 30fps effectively has "doubles frames" for each screen refresh. This is done by the display device itself, and not the game/content. This is evident when fast moving images (full screen or otherwise)/objects are displayed on-screen at 30fps. I believe it is less noticeable on an LCD because of the inherent motion blur due to the nature of LCD technology. Since Plasma can refresh much faster than LCD, the frame doubling is more apparent, drawing each frame clearly hence showing the seperation of the image clearer than on an LCD. This is not ghosting because the "doubled image" is the same color as the original and is not a dark/fading silhouette of the image (clearly evident on Sony Bravia LCD TVs during fast-motion gaming, and some film/TV sources as well - this is due to the slower response time of these panels).

Also, I know what phosphor lag (green ghosting) is, and this is not the same thing at all. Phosphor lag will show up in 30fps or 60fps content, or at any framerate at that, but I think it's actually more noticeable on 30fps content (this is my opinion and I haven't done any conclusive tests regarding this). Anyways, phosphor lag is pretty easy to deal with because it really is only noticeable on bright images moving against a dark background (to me anyways), and I'd rather have a little of that than resolution loss (motion blur) and ghosting all the time regardless of framerate/source.

I would like peoples input on this topic, and it would be especially cool if some of ya'll (yeah I'm from Texas), could test this on your own displays, whether it be LCD monitor/TV, Plasma TV/monitor, CRT TV/monitor. It should be evident on any of these display devices when set to refresh at 60hz. Try a 30fps game at 60hz and look for it. Then try a 60fps game and look for it. Tell me what you find.

By the way - the most evident example I have found of this is when selecting a car in Project Gotham Racing 4 for XBox 360. As you highlight a car/bike, it drives itself onto the screen against a white background. You can clearly see the two frames being drawn almost simultaneously but with seperation as the car moves on-screen.
post #2 of 72
i agree with everything said. what your'e seeing is judder and why i don't like 30fps fast console games on 60hz sets. On pc games i practically demand v-sync nowadays and the card better keep up with the refresh rate or i don't play for long. gimme smooth natural motion thanks very mutch - real objects don't repeat their positions...
to avoid it you need the frame rate and refresh to match - and preferably be in sync to avoid "tearing".
Judder can get bad especially with fast games but many like it for movies - which are 24fps displayed at 48 or 72hz - gives that "movie look".
Your'e right about LCD/plasma as LCd will cover up judder with blur like you said - its a substitution but i prefer neither. I posted a video on this subject btw but i'll have to find it.


24/30/60 fps

btw, most ppl don't know that with pc games the mouse is what ultimately determines your fps and you can get "mouse judder". a 500hz usb polling rate fixed it for me.
post #3 of 72
Thread Starter 
The video from the thread you linked to (the 30fps vs. 60fps) clearly demonstrates exactly what I was talking about. Thanks borf. I played this on my plasma and what a difference 60fps material makes...the motion is so clean and no blurring to speak of (on my LCD monitor 60fps is nice too, but there is still motion blur). Wish more games were 60fps, because some are pretty unbearable at 30fps (especially on the Plasma because it shows everything clearly)! I guess we probably won't see many 60fps games on console until the next generation of consoles release. Hopefully then the hardware will have advanced enough (and the devs have learned enough) to render most games at 60fps. I'm very surprised more gamers haven't noticed this effect. It is pretty obvious on my plasma. Maybe because the majority of gamers are using LCD TVs because they are afraid of a little image retention? The effect is still there on LCD, but the motion blue inherent to LCD technology hides it...a little. But then you are just seeing double images AND blur.

I've decided to hang on to the Plasma, but my next major TV purchase will probably not be the current generation LCD/Plasma/etc.

The effect is there, and it is noticeable, but not bad enough to stop me from playing the majority of my 360 games...thankfully my PC is a beast (for now) and I can run games on it at 1920x1200 or 1920x1080 over 60fps in high detail.
post #4 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

Hopefully then the hardware will have advanced enough (and the devs have learned enough) to render most games at 60fps.

i'm with you on that. for pc it seems every time hardware catches up, games designers raise the stakes and push it further. i think thats good since hardware gets better (nvidia and ati have been trail-blazin). but its also not so good if you know what i mean. maybe console can achieve a balance but playing "resistance" on my ps3 for instance just makes me sick after a while - then again i'm just getting old.
post #5 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by borf View Post

i'm with you on that. for pc it seems every time hardware catches up, games designers raise the stakes and push it further. i think thats good since hardware gets better (nvidia and ati have been trail-blazin). but its also not so good if you know what i mean. maybe console can achieve a balance but playing "resistance" on my ps3 for instance just makes me sick after a while - then again i'm just getting old.

Well Resistance 2 is 60fps (Insomniac has had 60fps on the PS3 down for a while now) and it was a huge improvement. I too find it hard to play shooters at anything less than 60fps. (action games aren't as bad but still suffer, I couldn't imagine playing the Ninja Gaiden games at only 30fps)
post #6 of 72
awsome, i was told it was good so ima gonna get it.
post #7 of 72
I found the same thing!

I also bought a 42 inch plasma from panasonic. I found it was a very good tv, but at a closer look while playing fallout 3, i discovered the double frames. I was puzzeled about it and started to look online.

And indeed it was the 30 vs 60 fps in the games. In the 30fps games (fallout 3, gears etc.) i saw the double frames, but in the 60 fps games (burnout paradise, COD4) it was smooth as........

I never noticed it on my 32 inch LCD i owned before. Probably because of the smaller size and blurring.

So i am happy to have found the answer to this phenomenon, but also not so happy since there are only a couple of 60 fps games out there.

I also notice this frame doubling while watching DVD and digital TV a little bit. are these sources also 30fps? Thankx!
post #8 of 72
Thread Starter 
Film and Video sources are usually shot a 24fps, so you will see this 'phenomenon' on these as well. I actually went out and bought another LCD (40" Samsung a630), and even though I didn't notice it on my other LCD prior to owning the plasma - I actually can now see it on the LCD as well (it's one of those things that once you notice, you can't "unsee").

However, my LCD TV is 120hz. Borf, do you know what the effect is on the 120hz displays, as I surely am seeing doubled up frames (or is it quadrupled in my case?). 60fps content, as far as I can tell - still looks buttery smooth. Shouldn't I see doubled frames from 60fps content on a 120hz TV? Perhaps I'm mistaken, or it's happening so much faster that I can't really even see it?

(I ask because I tried the 24v60 and 30v60 videos on the 120hz LCD - it looked pretty much the same as on my 60hz monitor. It should also be mentioned that the set only accepts incoming signals up to 60hz).
post #9 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

do you know what the effect is on the 120hz displays, as I surely am seeing doubled up frames (or is it quadrupled in my case?). Shouldn't I see doubled frames from 60fps content on a 120hz TV?


congrats on the new set. there shouldn't be any frame doubling on 120 hz sets when motion compensation is turned on (afaik) - but you may have noticed the interpolation processing isn't perfect. when it fails (it fails a lot on my set) the tv reverts back to frame doubling, or possibly a whole slew of other nasty stuff shows up (some pics here). also, my processor interpolates much better along the horizontal direction than the vertical - maybe you are noticing this judder. newer sets overcome this? but i sometimes see bad judder when things move up and down.

guessing by the nature of interpolation its more likely to fail with faster motion, lower frame rates and corrupt source material. also by its nature, it won't ever be perfect - as an example the best "boxes" in this area go for 100-200 grand and still have some problems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

it looked pretty much the same as on my 60hz monitor.

oops, those videos were made with repeat frames "built in" so you're not going to see a difference on a 120hz set.
don't worry, standard source material is "temporally progressive" (except for 24p blu-ray players maybe)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoHornet View Post


So i am happy to have found the answer to this phenomenon, but also not so happy since there are only a couple of 60 fps games out there.

i know what you mean.
i may make gaming video in the game forum. i've seen a few posts asking about it and always felt a need to know myself.
fyi there are possible drawbacks to realistic motion. download 60fps "wipeoutHD" demo for PS3 and noticed the warnings.
motion sickness has been associated with both high and low framerates.
not to bring bad news, i play on crt for years with no problem so..
post #10 of 72
I have a Panny 50" G10 with an XBOX 360 and have been experiencing the "doubles frames" issue when palying Fallout 3. Am I correct in assuming that there is really nothing I can do about it and either have to suck it up or stop playing the game? or any game that runs at 30fps?
post #11 of 72
For lcd, it is probably the blurring that makes this phenomenon impossible to see. But when it comes with high/full motion resolution plasmas, it becomes apparent. Low fps games is not a new problem, and had been going around for a while. A friend has a 08 Sam. A750, which is 120hz, and it removes this problem from gaming. But adds another. Lag. So its either:

judder with 60hz plasma;
blur with 60hz lcd;
budda smooth with lag with 120hz.

Maybe more games will be 60fps instead of the 30 mainly used. Think about it, we got hd games, dolby digital...we can only hope 60fps (or more!!!1) will be the future of gaming!

And to jhny, Fallout is the worst case of the frame-doubling I've seen. As an avid Fallout player, I do not see it anymore. You just need to be shooting more Super Mutants with the ol' Fat man...but srsly, only with the 120hz lcd's is the only thing that can smooth out the judder. But beware, can add problems like lag, "tripple effect" and thin wallets.
post #12 of 72
Next generation hardware will NOT solve the problem you folks are describing. 30 frames per second is a design choice of a game engine architect. EVERY single game to date can run at 60 frames per second, but the game engineers and designers choose to add more detail, textures, and other effects and sacrifice frame rate to do so. Because in the eyes of the casual gamer... more detail = better graphics. I'm the opposite... I'll take a smoother frame rate over detail any day of the week. And I feel the same way towards movies. I really really want to see the end of 24p cinema.
post #13 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by chandra.hp View Post

Next generation hardware will NOT solve the problem you folks are describing. 30 frames per second is a design choice of a game engine architect. EVERY single game to date can run at 60 frames per second, but the game engineers and designers choose to add more detail, textures, and other effects and sacrifice frame rate to do so. Because in the eyes of the casual gamer... more detail = better graphics. I'm the opposite... I'll take a smoother frame rate over detail any day of the week. And I feel the same way towards movies. I really really want to see the end of 24p cinema.

I agree 100% about games at higher framerates, however with movies at higher frame rates, it just doesn't work the same. Motion sickness becomes an issue. With games, you are in control of the action, so the smooth motion isn't an issue, however, with movies, you have no control and it really plays tricks with your equilibrium and can easily make people sick.

(watching someone else play a game at 60fps can have a similar effect of making you feel ill)
post #14 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

What I have noticed with the Plasma (something I didn't initially even see with LCD - more on that in a minute) is that while running a game that operates at 30fps introduces "image/frame doubling." Bear with me as this is apparantly NOT the same as "ghosting" i.e. motion blur. When I first noticed this, shortly after firing up the Plasma and playing a game (GTA4 for 360 specifically), I thought it WAS motion blur/ghosting (I know this game incorporates motion blur - but this doubling effect is seen even when your character is standing still and you pan the camera in circles). But then I thought, wait a second, Plasma is inherently supposed to be much better than LCD when it comes to motion handling. As in no blur. What I was seeing did in fact look like blur. But upon closer inspection, it appeared that what I was seeing was not blur, but in fact image doubling. After some research (there was only a tiny bit of info about this phenomenon on the web, not much info to go off of), I decided to see if this was an effect of playing 30fps content on a 60hz refreshing screen. I did this by running World in Conflict for PC (this game allows numerous graphical tweaking, framerate capping, and a demo mode which reports your fps live and averages the framerate at the end of the demo). Now, my for my PC, I have a 24" widescreen LCD monitor with a 4ms response time. This is my baseline for comparison to the Plasma, as I don't have a CRT monitor/TV anymore. Results are as follows..

GTA4 is not rendered at 30fps. It has varying frame rate between 20-30fps. AFAIK, it's the only games to be rendered in such a manner on the X360.



Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

30fps on LCD @ 60hz: Moving images appear to double. Slight motion blur due to LCD response time.
60fps on LCD @ 60hz: Moving images are not doubled. Smooth movement. Slight motion blur due to LCD response time.
30fps on Plasma @ 60hz: Moving images appear to double. No motion blur detected.
60fps on Plasma @ 60hz: Moving images are not doubled. Smooth movement. No motion blur detected.

What you're seeing is absolutely normal and hence the terms low-motion and high-motion.

Low-Motion: It's a term given to frame rate where the human eye is capable of detecting the gaps (lack of information) between each frame. The gap causes the original image to appear twice during motion. However, the effect can be reduced effectively by applying motion blur.

Hgh-motion: It's a term given to frame rate where the human is food into believe the motion is continues without any missing information.

Unlike AM-LCDs, CRT and plasma show the same frame twice when inputting 30p. For an example, CRT and plasma display frame A for 16.7ms and again for 16.7ms. Between each cycle, there's a black period. AM-LCDs display the same frame for 33.3ms continuously, because it doesn't refresh. So the effect of double image is more tolerable/easy on the eye.

It's one of the reasons why I prefer LCDs.
post #15 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

The video from the thread you linked to (the 30fps vs. 60fps) clearly demonstrates exactly what I was talking about. Thanks borf. I played this on my plasma and what a difference 60fps material makes...the motion is so clean and no blurring to speak of (on my LCD monitor 60fps is nice too, but there is still motion blur). Wish more games were 60fps, because some are pretty unbearable at 30fps (especially on the Plasma because it shows everything clearly)! I guess we probably won't see many 60fps games on console until the next generation of consoles release. Hopefully then the hardware will have advanced enough (and the devs have learned enough) to render most games at 60fps. I'm very surprised more gamers haven't noticed this effect. It is pretty obvious on my plasma. Maybe because the majority of gamers are using LCD TVs because they are afraid of a little image retention? The effect is still there on LCD, but the motion blue inherent to LCD technology hides it...a little. But then you are just seeing double images AND blur.

I've decided to hang on to the Plasma, but my next major TV purchase will probably not be the current generation LCD/Plasma/etc.

The effect is there, and it is noticeable, but not bad enough to stop me from playing the majority of my 360 games...thankfully my PC is a beast (for now) and I can run games on it at 1920x1200 or 1920x1080 over 60fps in high detail.


There's nothing wrong with games rendered at 30fps. I would rather have a stable 30fps than unstable 60fps.

On the next generation, we'll see better motion blur system (similar the ones use in FF CGIs).

Also, you could use low-level MCFI, but it may cause some motion artifacts.

If you want me to explain in detail, send be a FR via live
post #16 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

I agree 100% about games at higher framerates, however with movies at higher frame rates, it just doesn't work the same. Motion sickness becomes an issue. With games, you are in control of the action, so the smooth motion isn't an issue, however, with movies, you have no control and it really plays tricks with your equilibrium and can easily make people sick.

(watching someone else play a game at 60fps can have a similar effect of making you feel ill)

I personally dislike 60p FPS and 3rd person games. They appear too smooth (unnatural).


I actually prefer 30p with effective motion blur.
post #17 of 72
I notice this "double image" even on games with motion blur, like killzone 2.
post #18 of 72
I haven't played Kill Zone 2, but I did try Kill Zone 3 which had an effective blur algorithmic.
post #19 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

There's nothing wrong with games rendered at 30fps. I would rather have a stable 30fps than unstable 60fps.

Well..I never said there was anything wrong with 30fps. Just that I preferred 60fps vs. 30fps. I've never had any issues with motion sickness and neither has anyone I currently know. Only case I think of was a friends brother back in high school (over 10 years ago) that would get slightly quesy at high framerate games. This is a very small percentage considering the amount of gamers that I know/have known.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

On the next generation, we'll see better motion blur system (similar the ones use in FF CGIs).
...I personally dislike 60p FPS and 3rd person games. They appear too smooth (unnatural).
I actually prefer 30p with effective motion blur.

I'd really rather just see 60fps locked (or close to it) rather than 30fps with motion blur. Personal opinion yes, but I think the majority would agree.

I used to lock Quake 3 at 120fps (because the player physics were directly tied to frame rate), and played that way for SEVERAL years, so maybe I am 'high frame-rate spoiled' but everyone I ever talk to about this kind of stuff always wants to see higher frame-rate vs. lower w/motion blur.
post #20 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shwanC View Post

For lcd, it is probably the blurring that makes this phenomenon impossible to see. But when it comes with high/full motion resolution plasmas, it becomes apparent. Low fps games is not a new problem, and had been going around for a while. A friend has a 08 Sam. A750, which is 120hz, and it removes this problem from gaming. But adds another. Lag. So its either:

judder with 60hz plasma;
blur with 60hz lcd;
budda smooth with lag with 120hz.

...but srsly, only with the 120hz lcd's is the only thing that can smooth out the judder. But beware, can add problems like lag, "tripple effect" and thin wallets.

Lots of misinformation here.

#1, the frame doubling is still visible on LCDs - it's just not so cut-and-dry, night-and-day as it is on plasma due to the slightly more visible motion blur inherent to LCD tech vs. a plasma. Don't confuse frame doubling for "blur" on an LCD, as you are seeing the same exact effect as you see on the plasma. ***

#2 Lag isn't introduced by using a 120hz TV. Not sure where you got this idea from? Every TV has input lag. Every display device, really. Even Plasmas, computer monitors, etc - whether using VGA, Component, DVI, or HDMI - it doesn't matter (though VGA is definitely lower than 'untweaked' HDMI [keep reading] connections; however this is NOT the case with Component!) . Now, if you are lucky, there are ways to minimize this on your TV set such as running your console (or whatever device) to the HDMI2/PC port and naming the port 'PC'...this is just for my TV however, and probably other Samsung LCDs (I have an a630 but see this link for reference - and prepare to do some reading). Doing this 'tweak' bypasses all or at least the majority of signal processing the TV does to the frame before being displayed, therefore lowering the 'lag' time. The amount of lag is going to depend on the amount of signal processing done to the image and the actual speed of the TVs processing engine. Or you can just try using a VGA cable, and watch the lag virtually disappear. Personally, for my consoles, I opt to use 'Game Mode' which eliminates the majority of signal processing, bringing the lag down to [pretty much] imperceivable amounts. I use Game Mode because my HTPC takes up my HDMI2/PC port, in which i use the 'rename to PC' trick.

#3 Running AMP (auto motion plus - what Samsung calls their 120hz smooth motion algorithm) does smooth out the frame rate, albeit completely artificially, but then you are introducing a whole HOST of other problems, but primarily the TBE (triple ball effect) as you mentioned. REALLY bad for gaming. Try turning it on, then pivoting around in an FPS game with a static crosshair. You'll see three crosshairs drawn during side-to-side motion, one to the left and one to the right of the actual crosshair. Remember, all AMP does it try to guess what the next frame will be and then it throws in it's own 'made up' intermediary frames in between - often times there are mistakes in the 'made up' frames, hence you get the triple ball effect (or in this case, triple crosshair effect). Cranking it up to high will make it even smoother but with more errors in the frames - and the higher the AMP setting the more signal processing the TV is doing and that alone will increase the 'lag' you are seeing/feeling.




*** Let me reiterate from my initial post:

30fps on LCD @ 60hz: Moving images appear to double. Slight motion blur due to LCD response time.
60fps on LCD @ 60hz: Moving images are not doubled. Smooth movement. Slight motion blur due to LCD response time.
30fps on Plasma @ 60hz: Moving images appear to double. No motion blur detected.
60fps on Plasma @ 60hz: Moving images are not doubled. Smooth movement. No motion blur detected.
post #21 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrothermia View Post

I notice this "double image" even on games with motion blur, like killzone 2.

So do I, on my LCD TV and LCD monitor. I'm not talking about KZ2 specifically, I haven't even played that, but it's the same for other 30fps games + motion blur.

Some people will see it more than others - but it is STILL there even if you can't see it. And that's a fact. It has to do with some particular thing about your vision, more specifically in how you perceive motion; the name of which I can't remember now.
post #22 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

'm very surprised more gamers haven't noticed this effect. It is pretty obvious on my plasma. Maybe because the majority of gamers are using LCD TVs because they are afraid of a little image retention? The effect is still there on LCD, but the motion blue inherent to LCD technology hides it...a little. But then you are just seeing double images AND blur.

I've decided to hang on to the Plasma, but my next major TV purchase will probably not be the current generation LCD/Plasma/etc.

I might as well update this too since I haven't posted on AVS in forever until today. Funnily enough I got rid of that Panny Plasma (if you haven't realized this yet, lol); I sold it to a friend because I started experiencing image retention even though I broke it in well. I thought about it long and hard, and had to consider that since I play video games for hours on end sometimes, it just wasn't worth ruining the screen. But in all honestly, my biggest fear was falling asleep with it on a static screen (especially since I use the TV as a secondary monitor/HTPC movie screen). I can't tell you how many times now I've fallen asleep with my LCD TV on a static image.
I would have long destroyed that plasma screen by now...
post #23 of 72
I got IR on my S-PVA within 3 hours of watching 4:3 content

As least with PDP, the IR gets better as the panel ages. On LCDs, it becomes progressively worse.
post #24 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

I got IR on my S-PVA within 3 hours of watching 4:3 content

As least with PDP, the IR gets better as the panel ages. On LCDs, it becomes progressively worse.

Wow, that is pretty extreme. I've never seen any IR on my 3-4 year old Acer LCD monitor, or Sammy TV. Not that I think it can't happen - I know better. But I have heard that LCD IR usually dissipates quickly when you get some motion going on the screen. I say usually because 99.9% this is the case but I have seen pics of really bad IR on some older LCDs that didn't go away. Could be related to specific panel tech; I'm not really sure.

In comparison to your example, I watch ungodly amounts of 4:3 material - I've been through the entire TV series of all the Star Trek shows (finishing up Voyager now) - not a bit of IR I can see. This is just what I would call "recently," and I usually watch 4-8 episodes in a row (I know, I'm a nerd).

Or I'll just fall asleep with my desktop showing on my TV for 8 hours, haha. I really hate doing that. But no IR! Lol
post #25 of 72
It took several hours for it to disappear. I expected this anyway. The S-PVA I have (LTF400HM01) is heavy overdriven.

I love a bit of Star Trek now and then ^_^
post #26 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

It took several hours for it to disappear. I expected this anyway. The S-PVA I have (LTF400HM01) is heavy overdriven.

I love a bit of Star Trek now and then ^_^

Gotcha. I've never tried to overdrive my panels so I guess my comparison is moot

As an interesting note, in my Acer X241WSD manual, it states and I quote:

"When the same image is displayed for hours on end, its afterimage may remain after switching to a new image. When this happens, the screen will recover slowly by changing the image. Turning the LCD monitor off for several hours will also correct this problem."

I'd always heard that IR disappears very quickly/instantly on an LCD but since I've never experienced it, can't confirm. From what you and Acer say, perhaps it does take a little while. I'm sure it all depends on the degree of IR. Regardless, I've edited my previous post to reflect. Hell, most companies won't even state this info in their LCD TV/monitor manuals. Props to Acer on that one.

I've always loved Star Trek; I finally decided to watch them in order since I've seen episodes here and there out of order on the telly. It's pretty cool to watch the stories unfold how they were meant to be told.
post #27 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post
Gotcha. I've never tried to overdrive my panels so I guess my comparison is moot
Overdrive is applied by the panel vendor. On some monitors, you can choose the level of overdrive, but not on TVs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post
As an interesting note, in my Acer X241WSD manual, it states and I quote:

"When the same image is displayed for hours on end, its afterimage may remain after switching to a new image. When this happens, the screen will recover slowly by changing the image. Turning the LCD monitor off for several hours will also correct this problem."

I'd always heard that IR disappears very quickly/instantly on an LCD but since I've never experienced it, can't confirm. From what you and Acer say, perhaps it does take a little while. I'm sure it all depends on the degree of IR. Regardless, I've edited my previous post to reflect. Hell, most companies won't even state this info in their LCD TV/monitor manuals. Props to Acer on that one.
It varies based on LCD mode and generation
post #28 of 72
Idol, are you still seeing this? And what TV do you have now?
post #29 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post


GTA4 is not rendered at 30fps. It has varying frame rate between 20-30fps. AFAIK, it's the only games to be rendered in such a manner on the X360.

What you're seeing is absolutely normal and hence the terms low-motion and high-motion.

Low-Motion: It's a term given to frame rate where the human eye is capable of detecting the gaps (lack of information) between each frame. The gap causes the original image to appear twice during motion. However, the effect can be reduced effectively by applying motion blur.

Hgh-motion: It's a term given to frame rate where the human is food into believe the motion is continues without any missing information.

Unlike AM-LCDs, CRT and plasma show the same frame twice when inputting 30p. For an example, CRT and plasma display frame A for 16.7ms and again for 16.7ms. Between each cycle, there's a black period. AM-LCDs display the same frame for 33.3ms continuously, because it doesn't refresh. So the effect of double image is more tolerable/easy on the eye.

It's one of the reasons why I prefer LCDs.

Thanx! This really helped me to finally understand this thing that bugged me for a long time. Impressed by your knowledge and understanding. Thanx!

One more question for you, if you have time.

If the lcd displays one same frame for 33.3 milliseconds instead of two frames, why do we see any kind of double images on lcds too?

Thanx again.
post #30 of 72
^^ it's called retina persistence. There are many causes to what we perceive as a singular phenomen called "blur"
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Flat Panels General and OLED Technology › 30fps gaming at 60hz and the effects of frame doubling?