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If all I want is good Dolby digital through optical, what should I buy?

post #1 of 114
1/13/09 at 8:02am
Thread Starter 
Like the post title says.

All I really need is Dolby Digital sound for my ps3. I don't care about lossless. I don't care about HDMI, since I will just plug that right into my tv for video.

I was thinking of a last years model on Ebay?

I like the onkyo tx-sr506, but am I paying to much for this years tech, without this years tech?

Thanks
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post #2 of 114
1/13/09 at 8:18am
You could look at some receivers that are 3-5 years old that were high end models during their time. A couple that come to mind are the Yamaha 2500, 2700 and the Denon 5800, 5803, 3805, 4805. These receivers were $1500-3k and would do everything exceptionally well but people are dumping them on ebay super cheap because they're upgrading to HDMI units.
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post #3 of 114
1/13/09 at 8:24am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by racineboxer View Post

You could look at some receivers that are 3-5 years old that were high end models during their time. A couple that come to mind are the Yamaha 2500, 2700 and the Denon 5800, 5803, 3805, 4805. These receivers were $1500-3k and would do everything exceptionally well but people are dumping them on ebay super cheap because they're upgrading to HDMI units.

Is HDMI all that big of a deal? Really? Other then if you want 7.1 lossless?
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post #4 of 114
1/13/09 at 8:34am
HDMI offers potential convenience of a single wire connector. HDMI also avoids unnecessary conversions from digital audio sources to analog and then back to digital.

HDMI's downsides are unfortunately not trivial. The connector comes lose more easily than it should. Cable boxes are notorious for having issues. Some have reported resolutions changing on them, for example my Tivo's output resolution keeps resetting. Sometimes HDMI does not work at all.

But I am mostly happy with HDMI. My 360, PS3, DVD player and Tivo are all connected with HDMI. And the biggest issue is the resolution resetting to 1080i out.
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post #5 of 114
1/13/09 at 8:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

HDMI offers potential convenience of a single wire connector. HDMI also avoids unnecessary conversions from digital audio sources to analog and then back to digital.

HDMI's downsides are unfortunately not trivial. The connector comes lose more easily than it should. Cable boxes are notorious for having issues. Some have reported resolutions changing on them, for example my Tivo's output resolution keeps resetting. Sometimes HDMI does not work at all.

But I am mostly happy with HDMI. My 360, PS3, DVD player and Tivo are all connected with HDMI. And the biggest issue is the resolution resetting to 1080i out.

You mentioned having to convert digital signal to analog and back...but with optical I could avoid this yes?
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post #6 of 114
1/13/09 at 9:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by racineboxer View Post

You could look at some receivers that are 3-5 years old that were high end models during their time. A couple that come to mind are the Yamaha 2500, 2700 and the Denon 5800, 5803, 3805, 4805. These receivers were $1500-3k and would do everything exceptionally well but people are dumping them on ebay super cheap because they're upgrading to HDMI units.

Could I get some more older model receivers I am going on the ebay prowl
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post #7 of 114
1/13/09 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by treepop View Post

Like the post title says.

All I really need is Dolby Digital sound for my ps3. I don't care about lossless. I don't care about HDMI, since I will just plug that right into my tv for video.

I was thinking of a last years model on Ebay?

I like the onkyo tx-sr506, but am I paying to much for this years tech, without this years tech?

Thanks

Pardon me for asking but, why don't you care about lossless?
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post #8 of 114
1/13/09 at 10:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by john barlow View Post

Pardon me for asking but, why don't you care about lossless?

No problem...

1.)I don't think I could hear the difference between Dolby Digital @ 640kbs vs whatever bit rate.

2.)I have energy c-100 speakers, which are nice, but I doubt will be able to convey the minute difference there is, even if my ears could.

3.)the blue ray dvd(my system is for movies) has to have a special track for TRUEHD and I haven't seen many of them and from what I've read if they do include trueHD, they also include the max 640kbs on the the standard dolby digital track (see point's 1 and 2)

Thats pretty much my thought process
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post #9 of 114
1/13/09 at 10:24am
Optical would not avoid converting your video to analog and back. Sorry if I was unclear.

HDMI allows for video to stay in digital from source to display.
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post #10 of 114
1/13/09 at 10:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Optical would not avoid converting your video to analog and back. Sorry if I was unclear.

HDMI allows for video to stay in digital from source to display.

I planned on running HDMI from the ps3 to the TV directly. Then I planed on running a seperate optical cable from the ps3 to the receiver for sound.

This would be 100% digital correct...ie it would stay digital through the entire process.
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post #11 of 114
1/13/09 at 10:33am
Most bluray movies have DTS-HD-Ma, or Dolby TrueHD or PCM. In fact it is easily greater than 60-70%. There is a big difference between lossless and lossy. However, if you don't care about that, buy a better unit than Yamaha, Onkyo, etc. Get a NAD T754 or even an Arcam or HK model.
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post #12 of 114
1/13/09 at 10:51am
you might look over at audiogon
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post #13 of 114
1/13/09 at 11:05am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

Most bluray movies have DTS-HD-Ma, or Dolby TrueHD or PCM. In fact it is easily greater than 60-70%. There is a big difference between lossless and lossy. However, if you don't care about that, buy a better unit than Yamaha, Onkyo, etc. Get a NAD T754 or even an Arcam or HK model.

do you think I would be able to notice trueHD sound on my energy c-100 speakers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will-san View Post

you might look over at audiogon

Thanks...I knew I heard someone mention a place like this a while ago
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post #14 of 114
1/13/09 at 11:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by treepop View Post

No problem...

1.)I don't think I could hear the difference between Dolby Digital @ 640kbs vs whatever bit rate.

2.)I have energy c-100 speakers, which are nice, but I doubt will be able to convey the minute difference there is, even if my ears could.

3.)the blue ray dvd(my system is for movies) has to have a special track for TRUEHD and I haven't seen many of them and from what I've read if they do include trueHD, they also include the max 640kbs on the the standard dolby digital track (see point's 1 and 2)

Thats pretty much my thought process

Well I'll tell you what. If it wasn't for the new lossless audio codecs, I wouldn't have invested 30k into another home theater. This is my fourth adventure into home theater land. I have to say that between Blu Ray and lossless audio, I am a home theater fantatic forever. The two new formats have excited me and my family, and we are spending so many hours enjoying the cinema together. If I were you I would rethink my position on lossless.
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post #15 of 114
1/13/09 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by treepop View Post

Could I get some more older model receivers I am going on the ebay prowl

If I was going to buy a used receiver and HDMI wasn't an issue, I would most certainly look at a B&K AVR-307 or 507. Superb receivers, gobs of power, and really top end. This one is a little high, but you get the picture. Street price, used, is probably under $500

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....07-AV-Receiver
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post #16 of 114
1/13/09 at 11:29am
Thread Starter 
do you guys think I will be able to notice the lossless quality on my c-100's?
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post #17 of 114
1/13/09 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

If I was going to buy a used receiver and HDMI wasn't an issue, I would most certainly look at a B&K AVR-307 or 507. Superb receivers, gobs of power, and really top end. This one is a little high, but you get the picture. Street price, used, is probably under $500

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....07-AV-Receiver

yeah I would have to second that. I have a BK305 which, kicks three flavors of ass. And BK's service is really great. whic is important if you buy used.

I bought mine used and it had a problem (an internal blown fuse) and BK repaired it for free and upgraded the firmware while it was in, all I paid was shipping to them.
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post #18 of 114
1/13/09 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by treepop View Post

do you guys think I will be able to notice the lossless quality on my c-100's?

What you are asking for is an opinion. There are some that claim that the difference between lossy and lossless is HUGE. There are some who claim that it is practically non-existent. Most are in the middle. Its really up to you. You can at least go to any audio store and ask them to play a movie in lossless and lossy format and see if you can hear a difference.
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post #19 of 114
1/13/09 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by treepop View Post

do you guys think I will be able to notice the lossless quality on my c-100's?


Thats a tough call, possibly. Some say the differences between lossy and lossless are minimal and some say they're great. I think they're somewhere in between. I feel its worth it to spend the money on a AVR that can resolve the lossless codecs.

Have you heard the lossless tracks?

I don't know if I missed it but what was your budget?

You can pick up a HDMI capable AVR from last year for pretty cheap, relatively.

This also gives you the option of HDMI switching without changing inputs on your TV, in case you end up with more gear that has HDMI.
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post #20 of 114
1/13/09 at 12:16pm
Thread Starter 
My overall budget is around $600.

I spent $180 on the 4 c-100's from woot, since my wife did not like the idea of tower speakers....and that great deal at woot.com sealed the deal.

I need a center (the c-c100's are hard to find and sell from $200 to $250 )

I need a receiver, I was going to buy that refurb on accesories4less for $160 Onkyo TX-SR576...but it was silver.... BLAH

I also need a sub...I was thinking of using my old logitech from my computer surround, 5300 setup(use a converter to get the proprietary little rca type plugs to go into my receiver)
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post #21 of 114
1/13/09 at 12:36pm
Looked on ebay, Energy C-C100 seem to go for around $200

The ESW-10 Sub (Better than the logitech I'm sure) $150

H/K AVR 247 Refurb from H/K $240

$590

Unless the $180 for the C-100's is supposed to come out of the $600, then we'll have to dig more.
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post #22 of 114
1/13/09 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by treepop View Post

I don't think I could hear the difference between Dolby Digital @ 640kbs vs whatever bit rate.

You're not alone:

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby...compressed_PCM

When compared under controlled conditions, DD@640kbps and DTS@1.5mbps turn out to be very close to uncompressed/lossless. So it's not unreasonable to stick with lossy codecs in your system, especially with Blu-ray - which uses the highest bitrate for those codecs.

The only suggestion I would make about receivers is to try to find one that has good room correction, like Audyssey MultEQ or MultEQxt, which will usually improve the sound whether listening to lossless or lossy.

Sanjay
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post #23 of 114
1/13/09 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by treepop View Post

do you guys think I will be able to notice the lossless quality on my c-100's?

Yes, you will most assuredly be able to tell the difference.
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post #24 of 114
1/13/09 at 2:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You're not alone:

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby...compressed_PCM

When compared under controlled conditions, DD@640kbps and DTS@1.5mbps turn out to be very close to uncompressed/lossless. So it's not unreasonable to stick with lossy codecs in your system, especially with Blu-ray - which uses the highest bitrate for those codecs.

The only suggestion I would make about receivers is to try to find one that has good room correction, like Audyssey MultEQ or MultEQxt, which will usually improve the sound whether listening to lossless or lossy.

Sanjay

Thats what I have heard. I believe the onkyo tx-sr506. does feature that audyssey room calibration software.


Quote:
Originally Posted by john barlow View Post

Yes, you will most assuredly be able to tell the difference.

it confusses me when you say stuff like this and sdurani links stuff like that.

BUT! it is good to know that if I opt for lossless that my speakers will put that sound to my ears.
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post #25 of 114
1/13/09 at 2:39pm
as someone else said, more important than HDMI lossless audio is room correction, especially Audyssey.

You could get a nice $350 receiver and a PA-120 sub ($230 shipped off ebay) and be hooked up. The Energy C-Series speakers have nice, clear treble and with a good sub you probably will still be able to appreciate lossless audio, although honestly Audyssey MultEQ will make a bigger difference.

Careful with those Onkyos, the lower level models only have Audyssey 2EQ which is far inferior to the MultEQ found on higher (705/706 and up) level Onkyos and most HDMI Denons.

You should spend an hour reading through the "best sub 400 receiver" thread, there is a ton of good info there and you will start to get educated on the various features/options available to you.
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post #26 of 114
1/13/09 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by treepop View Post

I believe the onkyo tx-sr506. does feature that audyssey room calibration software.

As batpig warns, the lower end Onkyos have the 2EQ version of Audyssey (doesn't EQ the subwoofer, which needs the most correction). Lower end Denon receivers should be within your budget; look for models (new or used) that specifically have MultEQ or (even better) MultEQxt.

Sanjay
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post #27 of 114
1/13/09 at 3:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

as someone else said, more important than HDMI lossless audio is room correction, especially Audyssey.

You could get a nice $350 receiver and a PA-120 sub ($230 shipped off ebay) and be hooked up. The Energy C-Series speakers have nice, clear treble and with a good sub you probably will still be able to appreciate lossless audio, although honestly Audyssey MultEQ will make a bigger difference.

Careful with those Onkyos, the lower level models only have Audyssey 2EQ which is far inferior to the MultEQ found on higher (705/706 and up) level Onkyos and most HDMI Denons.

You should spend an hour reading through the "best sub 400 receiver" thread, there is a ton of good info there and you will start to get educated on the various features/options available to you.

why...why do that to me....ARG! more stipulations! growl

Can I get a sub $300 receiver with mutEQ but no lossless?
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post #28 of 114
1/13/09 at 3:26pm
MultEQ is pretty much only found in receivers with HDMI audio, so you are stuck with BOTH features!!

The only receivers I am aware of with MultEQ but WITHOUT audio over HDMI are the Denon models 1708/688 from last year or this year's 1709/689 and 1609/589. In fact, the 1709/689 is a really nice deal if you don't want HDMI audio because they offer MultEQ + Dynamic EQ + Dynamic Volume, so you get all the newest Audyssey features. I would avoid the 1609/589 as they are much more limited in features than the slight step up to 1709/689.
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post #29 of 114
1/13/09 at 3:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

MultEQ is pretty much only found in receivers with HDMI audio, so you are stuck with BOTH features!!

The only receivers I am aware of with MultEQ but WITHOUT audio over HDMI are the Denon models 1708/688 from last year or this year's 1709/689 and 1609/589. In fact, the 1709/689 is a really nice deal if you don't want HDMI audio because they offer MultEQ + Dynamic EQ + Dynamic Volume, so you get all the newest Audyssey features. I would avoid the 1609/589 as they are much more limited in features than the slight step up to 1709/689.

so you're saying....look for a used receiver with all those Audyssey features? I need to stay under $300
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post #30 of 114
1/13/09 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by treepop View Post

why...why do that to me....

Partly because we want you to get the best bang for the buck for your limited budget. And partly to torture you.

Sanjay
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