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Official LaserVue Owners thread - Page 2

post #31 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Those are not the final numbers they are the starting values. I only provided the final gray scale and gamma.

Would you care to provide the final numbers across the board? I'd be very interested in seeing them (as I'm sure would others). Also, you mention that the i1Pro is not adequate enough to measure this set. Can you give example readings in which you saw a substantial difference? What you measured with your instrument compared to what was measured with the i1.
post #32 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

Would you care to provide the final numbers across the board? I'd be very interested in seeing them (as I'm sure would others). Also, you mention that the i1Pro is not adequate enough to measure this set. Can you give example readings in which you saw a substantial difference? What you measured with your instrument compared to what was measured with the i1.

No.

Errors with the i1 Pro were as high as 0.015 in xy and 15% in Y. They were even larger for the filter based tool which was more like +-0.1 in xy.
post #33 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by egrady View Post

I have been bashing this set's black level and contrast ratio from the first time I saw it. UMR measured the on/off contrast ratio at 2000 to 1, which is close to a better bulb driven DLP. In fact, Home Theater Magazine measured to on/off contrast ratio of the Mits 65835 at 5005 to 1! If Mits wants to charge Elite 9G prices for the Laservue they'll have to do a lot better than that.

The same publication showed a similar 5000+ to 1 contrast ratio for one of the older Samsungs. Always wondered if that measurement was actually taken with dynamic contrast on...
post #34 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

No.

Errors with the i1 Pro were as high as 0.015 in xy and 15% in Y. They were even larger for the filter based tool which was more like +-0.1 in xy.

No, you don't care to share the final results? Or no, you won't share the final results?
post #35 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Those are not the final numbers they are the starting values. I only provided the final gray scale and gamma.

Considering what the CS2000 shows from this set and the fact that you did not choose to put a post calibration report on the thread, one can easily figure out why, as if it hit the mark one would have no trouble showing it. I have continued to observe that if a calibrator does not give you a full report (only selected info) for your set, there is usually a reason why and something he does not want you to see. I am sure that is no different here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by S. Hiller View Post

The same publication showed a similar 5000+ to 1 contrast ratio for one of the older Samsungs. Always wondered if that measurement was actually taken with dynamic contrast on...

Remember that the contrast ratio can be manipulated by the size of the window that is displayed. There is no Industry Standard for the the size of the window even though THX tried to get the Industry to agree on one. Thus all claims should be viewed with that cavet as there is no Industry Standard (not that this set does much that is Industry Standard).

Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Not really. If you were to look at all of color space you would be surprised how few do a good job. This is one reason the 9G Pioneer Elites can look so good. That level of color accuracy is rare not common.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plenty

–adjective
4. existing in ample quantity or number; plentiful; abundant: Food is never too plenty in the area.
5. more than sufficient; ample: That helping is plenty for me


There are certainly choices that do color space correctly. "Plenty" does not mean it is the norm or even the majority. However, if one has 5 choices that do Color Space correctly, that are certainly ample (or plenty) of choices, especially if one is willing to spend $7k for a monitor.
post #36 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I am not distributing this at this time. The fact is so few would ever buy a PR-670 and the other tools to do this that it would only help my competitors. Doing all of this properly also requires a calibrated eye to some extent which is not possible to distribute with a software package.

Doing what? What are you doing that requires that you eyeball something, and why? It sounds like you are trying to build some mystique rather than inform. There is certainly a point at which the limitations in displays require some judgement on the part of a calibrator to make the best tradeoffs, but there is underlying data and science that should minimize this. With all due respect, Jeff, what can you possibly be doing that requires a "calibrated eye?"
post #37 of 2625
It was my LaserVue TV that umr Calibrated on Sunday. Now I have, perhaps, the world's first Calibrated LV TV. A couple of points, here on this. First, I did not have umr calibrate the Brilliant mode, that's in my view, the thing that distinguishes this TV from all others. Secondly, that true color temp was 6500K and my inability to measure that accurately with modest meters pointed definiitely to the need for serious tools such as umr's excellent test set. It was really cool to view the discrete spectra of the lasers on the pr-670 LCD screen. The measured set{636nm,532nm,443nm) is similar to wavelengths we have discussed on earlier posts. BTW, I chose umr to do this work, based on a recommendation from htwaits and based on the specifications of the excellent tools he uses in his work. It is important to note that typically, one might have erroneously tweaked this TV with no way of knowing the existence of certain systematic errors of the sensors. Those quantities{GRWL,GGWL,GBWL} are what first alerted me to these errors.
post #38 of 2625
Thread Starter 
John I also have the LaserVue and am wondering how you like your set? Better after calibration? Here comes the math class. I have not had calibrated but enjoy this set immensely.
post #39 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by john stephens View Post

It was my LaserVue TV that umr Calibrated on Sunday. Now I have, perhaps, the world's first Calibrated LV TV. A couple of points, here on this. First, I did not have umr calibrate the Brilliant mode, that's in my view, the thing that distinguishes this TV from all others. Secondly, that true color temp was 6500K and my inability to measure that accurately with modest meters pointed definiitely to the need for serious tools such as umr's excellent test set. It was really cool to view the discreet spectra of the lasers on the pr-670 LCD screen. The measured set{636nm,532nm,443nm) is similar to wavelengths we have discussed on earlier posts. BTW, I chose umr to do this work, based on a recommendation from htwaits and based on the specifications of the excellent tools he uses in his work. It is important to note that typically, one might have erroneously tweaked this TV with no way of knowing the existence of certain systematic errors of the sensors. Those quantities{GRWL,GGWL,GBWL} are what first alerted me to these errors.


John, would you care to post the post calibration results that umr came up with? After calibration, what are your primary and secondary value measurements.
post #40 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

John, would you care to post the post calibration results that umr came up with? After calibration, what are your primary and secondary value measurements.

No, I can't share those numbers. Besides, I think each of us should have the Natural Mode at Low Temp Calibrated Once. And select your Calibrator with care.
post #41 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckscountyguy View Post

John I also have the LaserVue and am wondering how you like your set? Better after calibration? Here comes the math class. I have not had calibrated but enjoy this set immensely.

I love the TV immensely, as well. And I do a lot of TV watching in Brilliant mode. BTW, I don't think it's possible to see Rainbows at all with this TV. I have Directv with an HD-DVR - HR20-700. some of the HD channels are really beautiful in Brilliant mode. I watch BluRay DVDs in Natural Mode at Low Temp and the calibrated results are truly awesome!
post #42 of 2625
congrats John on your LV HDTV & for choosing UMR to calibrate your TV. He did great work a few yrs back on my HP RPTV , as well great audio calibration.

I hope to have UMR here in NYC to work on my Samsung LED A950 LCD, but feel tempted w/ the Mits LV, if only I could find it in stock & cheaper. Enjoy!
post #43 of 2625
First I'd like to chime in on the question of Contrast Ratio which seems to a new focus of discussion on that other LV thread. First it is important to note that as is usual, the calibration was performed with all the Bells and Whistles turned OFF. Owners will, hopefully, know that this TV includes something called:

DEEP FIELD IMAGER

This module dynamically enhances Black Levels in portions of the Screen to effectively increase Contrast and enhance Shadow Detail in select regions of the Scene.

Another thing to note is that the Brilliant Mode with all the Bells and Whistles turned ON and uncalibrated, of course, has much higher contrast than the calibrated Natural_Low Mode. So really, there are no concerns of lack ocontrast on this TV.

Regarding Contrast, I happen to own a copy of the LV Demo disk, which really features Deep Black Shadow Details. If you don't already own this disk, you should get yourself a copy.

In another thread, I stated that this TV could be used as a refernce to access your sensors. That view has been enhanced in the wake of a very high quality Calibration. Consider this; there is no mechanism by which the calibrated performance can drift over time with this TV. Unlike Lamps and LEDS etc, there is no Aging shifts and no large there effects to cause changes in the Source Spectral shape and brightness. This fact, coupled with the fact that all the signal processing in the TV is Digital with absolutely undiminished bit wise accuracy throughout the signal processing chain. This means that now that a Benchmark measurement of the TV has been made, I can now refer my modest DTP94 to those results with confidence that any variances are due to the Meter. This will allow me to get an exact profile of my meter. I already know that my DTP94 has a positive systematic offset. Over the next few days, I intend to deternine the exact size of that offset. This is just one of the really new possibilties afforded by the TV.
Another point is that because the source is a set of discrete lasers with essentially Dirac Delta Function Spectra, it's possible to Write down the Tristimulus Equation and to Integrate it analytically for a direct calculation of {X,Y,Z}. For this, I intend to Fit the CIE Filter Curves to a Set of Gaussians centered on the various filter peak wavelengths. I am working on this now and should know more in a week or so. This possibility, BTW, is in stark contrast to the difficulties encountered in this calculation with conventional sources.
post #44 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by john stephens View Post

No, I can't share those numbers. Besides, I think each of us should have the Natural Mode at Low Temp Calibrated Once. And select your Calibrator with care.

Why can you not share the final numbers that you ended up with after calibration? I'm not asking for service menu specifics, I'm asking for the final xyY coordinates for your primaries and secondaries. umr posted the original readings in the CIE chart he posted. Why not post the post-calibration CIE chart?

I AM a calibrator, but I have not had the opportunity to calibrate a LV yet. As a matter of fact, they aren't even available for purchase yet in my area. I would like to know what to expect.
post #45 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by john stephens View Post

First I'd like to chime in on the question of Contrast Ratio which seems to a new focus of discussion on that other LV thread. First it is important to note that as is usual, the calibration was performed with all the Bells and Whistles turned OFF. Owners will, hopefully, know that this TV includes something called:

DEEP FIELD IMAGER

This module dynamically enhances Black Levels in portions of the Screen to effectively increase Contrast and enhance Shadow Detail in select regions of the Scene.

Another thing to note is that the Brilliant Mode with all the Bells and Whistles turned ON and uncalibrated, of course, has much higher contrast than the calibrated Natural_Low Mode. So really, there are no concerns of lack ocontrast on this TV.

One can increase the contrast ratio by lowering the black level or increasing the light output, while keeping the other one constant. So, if the black level stays the same when you go from Natural to Brilliant, the contrast ratio would go up, since I suspect the light output would increase from the 45fL number UMR measured in the Natural setting. This is the reason why LCD's are so popular, their light output in the showroom is so blinding that most people don't notice the gray blacks.

While the ability to increase the light output is fine, as far as it goes, contrast ratio per se isn't the whole story. Overcoming an average black level, by increasing the light output, may result in a statistically acceptable contrast ratio, but you still end up with gray blacks.

In order to measure the contrast ratio UMR had to determine the black level. Would you mind disclosing it? If my math is correct the black level in the Natural Setting, at 45fL of light output, would be .0225
post #46 of 2625
Another thing. On/Off Contrast? What about ANSI Contrast? Then again, are we really expecting something different than other DLPs using the same chip?
post #47 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Doing what? What are you doing that requires that you eyeball something, and why? It sounds like you are trying to build some mystique rather than inform. There is certainly a point at which the limitations in displays require some judgement on the part of a calibrator to make the best tradeoffs, but there is underlying data and science that should minimize this. With all due respect, Jeff, what can you possibly be doing that requires a "calibrated eye?"

Being rather familiar with Jeff's approach to calibration, I suspect he means simply that he does not calibrate just by trying to hit various numbers/reading from his instruments. Instead, after using his instruments to adjust settings, he performs further adjustments based upon how real world material, such as movies, look to his trained eye in the sense of his knowledge of how that scene should appear. The result may (or may not) be slightly worse in the sense of numbers but it makes for a happier client.
post #48 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidryp View Post

Another thing. On/Off Contrast? What about ANSI Contrast? Then again, are we really expecting something different than other DLPs using the same chip?

Speaking only for myself, yes. Mitsubishi advertised this set as having a true black to go with the wider color gamut. Then they priced it $500 higher than the Elite 151, which is considered the best set on the market as of today by most. Excluding Beachcomber of course!

If Mitsubishi is going to do that, they'll only get my business if they deliver. The black level I've seen with my own eyes wasn't even as good as a Panasonic plasma, much less a 9G Kuro. Still, I've only seen one set and if anyone can get the most out of a Laservue it's UMR. Hence, my interest in what he measured on Mr. Stephen's set.
post #49 of 2625
Thread Starter 
Egrady- Do you feel the 151 screen quality will degrade over time. I've read the maketing and they said it would take up to 15 years. The place I bought the LaserVue said it will degrade 2-3 years out. I said even the Kuro? He said Plasmas are mostly the same as far as the screen is concerned.
post #50 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckscountyguy View Post

Egrady- Do you feel the 151 screen quality will degrade over time. I've read the maketing and they said it would take up to 15 years. The place I bought the LaserVue said it will degrade 2-3 years out. I said even the Kuro? He said Plasmas are mostly the same as far as the screen is concerned.

Any plasma will dim over time, but the measure is hours of use. While I doubt panel life is really an issue, something better and cheaper will come along long before the panel is toast, the Kuro hasn't been on the market long enough for anyone to really know how long it will really last.
post #51 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckscountyguy View Post

Egrady- Do you feel the 151 screen quality will degrade over time. I've read the maketing and they said it would take up to 15 years. The place I bought the LaserVue said it will degrade 2-3 years out. I said even the Kuro? He said Plasmas are mostly the same as far as the screen is concerned.


It's 60,000 hours to half brightness - I don't think you need to worry!
post #52 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

It's 60,000 hours to half brightness - I don't think you need to worry!

They also said that CD's would last for 50+ years. How many dead CDs do you have around the house?

It's rather hard to predict electronics failure. The Mars Rovers were supposed to last 90 days......5 years later....

Sony OBs (and Mitsubishi DLP Light Engines) often don't last 2 years.
post #53 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

They also said that CD's would last for 50+ years. How many dead CDs do you have around the house?

It's rather hard to predict electronics failure. The Mars Rovers were supposed to last 90 days......5 years later....

Sony OBs (and Mitsubishi DLP Light Engines) often don't last 2 years.

Dead CDs? Only when I've scratched them too much...
post #54 of 2625
Hi Jeff. Good to know you're still around.
post #55 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by S. Hiller View Post

Dead CDs? Only when I've scratched them too much...

That you know of.

Here's just one of literally thousands of articles on it.

http://www.mscience.com/cdrfail.html
post #56 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

That you know of.

Here's just one of literally thousands of articles on it.

http://www.mscience.com/cdrfail.html

There are also thousands of articles on faked moon landings, hollow earth, and alien crash sites.

I have a modest library of around 1,400 DVD titles, and 1,000 or so CDs.

Since the launch of the optical media format, I can count on less one hand, the number of discs that have ever gone bad, and of those, none have done so spontaneously due to DVD/CD rot, but rather due to scratches (I have a 6 year old) caused by over use or neglectful storage practices (laying lose, outside of their intended cases).

Spence
post #57 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

They also said that CD's would last for 50+ years. How many dead CDs do you have around the house?

It's rather hard to predict electronics failure. The Mars Rovers were supposed to last 90 days......5 years later....

Sony OBs (and Mitsubishi DLP Light Engines) often don't last 2 years.

I have no dead CDs. Lots of dead cassettes though.

My Mits dlp is 3 years old and has the original light engine too (and bulb). Guess I'm just lucky.

Yes, a plasma can fail but dimming via time is not a legitimate worry for the product line as a whole.
post #58 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpenceJT View Post

There are also thousands of articles on faked moon landings, hollow earth, and alien crash sites.

I have a modest library of around 1,400 DVD titles, and 1,000 or so CDs.

Since the launch of the optical media format, I can count on less one hand, the number of discs that have ever gone bad, and of those, none have done so spontaneously due to DVD/CD rot, but rather due to scratches caused by over use or neglectful storage practices (laying lose, outside of their intended cases).

Spence

I'm at 800+ and can also count on one hand the cds that have gone bad, at least two were from sloppy care.. I have them from the inception of cds to the present.
post #59 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

They also said that CD's would last for 50+ years. How many dead CDs do you have around the house?

Not a single one.
post #60 of 2625
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpenceJT View Post

There are also thousands of articles on faked moon landings, hollow earth, and alien crash sites.

Clearly you did not look at the link or the business the site is in before you posted that comment.

And yes I know there is fake info all over the web.....just read the LaserVu thread for all kinds of bad info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpenceJT View Post

I have a modest library of around 1,400 DVD titles, and 1,000 or so CDs.

Since the launch of the optical media format, I can count on less one hand, the number of discs that have ever gone bad, and of those, none have done so spontaneously due to DVD/CD rot, but rather due to scratches (I have a 6 year old) caused by over use or neglectful storage practices (laying lose, outside of their intended cases).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Not a single one.

That you know about until you need it.
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