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Is anybody messing with Tapped Horns?

post #1 of 63
Thread Starter 
I've been playing around with the TH tool in the HornResponse program for awhile and I think I'm going to give a moderate sized TH a shot this spring and get my feet wet. I want to see what all the fuss is about and gauge the relative difficulty of getting one right. Plus it'll be fun to compare one to sealed and ported subs. I'll probably use a cheap, moderate power 10 or 12.

Has anybody built one, or thought about it? Anybody using HR, or Akabak to model them?
post #2 of 63
I built one with a double fold last summer, using hornsrep to model the design.

Pics and details are at DIYaudio

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...&pagenumber=95

I think the sound quality is fantastic particularly in the sub bass (15-25hz).

However the output is a little bit over hyped if your going to use it for home theater. Most of the suitable drivers are x-max limited and so the output at low frequency is compromised.

If you going to build one that diggs deep, go for a 12" driver at min with 8+ mm of xmax.

But then again you mention building a little one so maybe my advise doesn't apply .
post #3 of 63
Thread Starter 
Yeah I've read that entire 100+ page monstrosity of a thread. and all of the others. I think I'm going to do something medium or small sized just to try it out. Maybe something with just a good 30hz extension for music with a 10". Something inexpensive as I have too many drivers already but none of them are going to be useful in a TH.

From what I gather it gains you some sensitivity and output over a regular ported or sealed alignment but not as much as a front loaded or other true horn would. Basically it splits the difference and keeps the size down a bit. Tom has said that it can net up to 10db though, so perhaps us DIYer's designs just aren't fully refined yet.
post #4 of 63
Sounds good... I'd imagine a 10 or 12 tuned to 30hz would make a nice sub for music.

If hornsrep shows a lot of HF hash above your crossover frequency, you'll want to either center the sub between your speakers or better yet, use some sort of DSP to minimize it.

Also you'll need some way to time delay your mains to take into account the path length of the tapped horn. I should add that this is just my experience, some other don't agree.

Quote:
From what I gather it gains you some sensitivity and output over a regular ported or sealed alignment but not as much as a front loaded or other true horn would. Basically it splits the difference and keeps the size down a bit. Tom has said that it can net up to 10db though, so perhaps us DIYer's designs just aren't fully refined yet.

Yup, that pretty much describes the situation. I have an 80hz front loaded horn and it's almost the same size as my tapped horn.

Be sure and post up your build and HR data.
post #5 of 63
Thread Starter 
I will. I need to start modeling different drivers and see if I can get something that looks decent in HR. It'd be nice if I can get a driver that also does well in standard ported and sealed boxes.

So far what I've got on what to look for in a driver are moderately high FS, slightly higher than the intended TH cut-off. This will put me in the 30-40hz area. Start with the throat around SD/1.5, mouth 2 to 3 times SD and go from there.
post #6 of 63
I'm very interested in TH's as well.

There's a thread in the main Subwoofer forums that is currently discussing the "sound" of TH's versus Folded Horns. Tom Danley chimes in at the bottom of page 3 if you're interested.

I'm still on the fence between a TH and Folded Horn. I'm caught between a simple TH and more complicated Bill FitzMaurice Tuba.

As I mentioned in that thread. I've got the ultra low frequencies covered by a 13 cu foot LLT. What the LLT really lacks is great mid-subbass (40 - 90hz) which I believe a higher tuned horn would be perfect for.
post #7 of 63
i had an idea about a hybrid 2-way regular/tapped horn

two different drivers in 2 different locations in the same horn being fed two different signals

the problem would be with keeping the driver at the end from getting ripped to shreds by the air pressure there. towards that end you can set up a helmholtz resonator ( tuned port ) there tuned to same frequency as the horn to provide back pressure behind the cones to cancel out the pressure in front.

well ... to really know if it would work somebody has to build it ... i can't model the interaction between the drivers too accurately in my head
post #8 of 63
"Something inexpensive as I have too many drivers already but none of them are going to be useful in a TH. "

Perhaps more than you want, but how about the 12" Eminence for TD's LAB sub.
post #9 of 63
Hey Ricci,

So what's the latest on this? Have you made any progress on a TH project?

After reading the positive reviews of the TH50 in the GTG thread I've started reading up on tapped horns (I'm only up to page 20 of ~160 of the "Collaborative Tapped horn project"). A quick search here brought up this thread so I thought I'd check if there's any news or if you just dropped the project.
post #10 of 63
While not a tapped horn, you can also vent the rear chamber on a conventional horn to get a bit more oomph below where the horn rolls off. Or you can eq it a bit, adding some boost on a basshorn with a sealed rear chamber for the driver.

Just other things to think about. For a really small tapped horn, the tangband midbass underhung driver they are selling at PE models well according to Mike Bentz.
post #11 of 63
I'm also interested in your progress. I really like the long narrow subs JLH has. I've been toying with building one with the two AE 12s I have here. Then putting it behind the couch pointing into a corner to see how it does. But I have just begun reading on a folded horn. I'm not even sure if my plan will work or how to use hornresp yet
post #12 of 63
Thread Starter 
I haven't given up. Actually hearing the TH50 has renewed my interest in this project. I'm still in the planning stage at this point but I will get to this. I may do something a bit more "ambitious" than originally planned. Don't wait for me, cut up some wood and see what happens.
post #13 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I haven't given up. Actually hearing the TH50 has renewed my interest in this project. I'm still in the planning stage at this point but I will get to this. I may do something a bit more "ambitious" than originally planned. Don't wait for me, cut up some wood and see what happens.

Soon hopefully.. playing with Hornresp and reading howtos trying to get a grasp on how to design these beasts.
post #14 of 63
hehe...i got the sense that the th50's piqued an interest, or perhaps an addiction, in you ricci.

anybody have info on the th50 design? it would be instructive to see the innards. i haven't been able to find anything, anywhere.

also, when placing something like lab horns or tapped horns such as the th50 in a home-sized room, does anybody know if there are any strange effects that make them undesirable?
post #15 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I've been playing around with the TH tool in the HornResponse program for awhile and I think I'm going to give a moderate sized TH a shot this spring and get my feet wet. I want to see what all the fuss is about and gauge the relative difficulty of getting one right. Plus it'll be fun to compare one to sealed and ported subs. I'll probably use a cheap, moderate power 10 or 12.

Has anybody built one, or thought about it? Anybody using HR, or Akabak to model them?

one of the reasons i got banned from DiyAudio is talkign sh1t about tapped horns ...

well since then i thought about it some more and - it does make some sort of sense that tapped horn thing. not that i would ever use one but you can go ahead and test it out.

it's basically a horn optimized for relatively narrowband performance in a relatively simple to construct enclosure ( compared to a real horn )

it will probably sound like CRAP but the bang for the buck should be decent. may be a good option for home theater. useless for audiophile purposes.

its probably suitable for more or less same applications as a bandpass box ...

of course this is all just theoretically ...

in fact maybe DSP will be able to overcome its inherent crappiness and you will be left with clean SPL. who knows. try it.
post #16 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin View Post

one of the reasons i got banned from DiyAudio is talkign sh1t about tapped horns ...

shocker.

Quote:


it's basically a horn optimized for relatively narrowband performance in a relatively simple to construct enclosure ( compared to a real horn )

incorrect.

Quote:


it will probably sound like CRAP but the bang for the buck should be decent. may be a good option for home theater. useless for audiophile purposes.

incorrect.

Quote:


its probably suitable for more or less same applications as a bandpass box ...

incorrect.

Quote:


of course this is all just theoretically ...

incorrect.

Quote:


...its inherent crappiness...

incorrect.
post #17 of 63
post #18 of 63
Thread Starter 
Looks like I'll skip the small 10 or 12" version and go straight to something big and dumb involving a 15" or 18". Out of the drivers I currently have (XXX,SDX, LMS) the LMS looks like it might be most useable in a TH. I have further modeling to do and I'm going to look at other designs than the TH too, just to see. I do have one that doesn't look too bad. May still buy a better suited driver for this sort of thing. Don't know yet. I'd rather use a driver that I'm already very familiar with so I can tell exactly what the enclosure is doing better.
post #19 of 63
I saw your posts over at Tapped Horn haven--don't wuss out on us. You are our only hope for a 24' long horn utilizing an 18" LMS. We rely on you to make our bass dreams come true.
post #20 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatawan View Post

I saw your posts over at Tapped Horn haven--don't wuss out on us. You are our only hope for a 24' long horn utilizing an 18" LMS. We rely on you to make our bass dreams come true.

LOL! You wussed out on your 15" build! Yeah I saw your posts too. What...500L horn in the living room too big for yah?
post #21 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatawan View Post

I saw your posts over at Tapped Horn haven--don't wuss out on us. You are our only hope for a 24' long horn utilizing an 18" LMS. We rely on you to make our bass dreams come true.

Yep, you should build it. I mean, you'll have to build it in your listening room, as there will be no way to get it through a door, but....

By my back of the envelope calculations, I should be able to feel it here in South Carolina when you fire it up, heh.

Keith
post #22 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

LOL! You wussed out on your 15" build! Yeah I saw your posts too. What...500L horn in the living room too big for yah?

I did wuss out, not because of the size, but because I would have to cut it off at 50Hz or so and waste all that mid-bass goodness. I also wasn't comfortable with all the fiddling around it would need to get it right. It's difficult to "fiddle" with such a large box and large driver.
post #23 of 63
Quote:


one of the reasons i got banned from DiyAudio is talkign sh1t about tapped horns ...

We are counting the days until you get banned from this site too!
post #24 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

We are counting the days until you get banned from this site too!

C'mon man. That post is over a week old. i'd rather not have a bunch of bickering in this thread. There's plenty of that in 50 other ones.
post #25 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HornsKeith View Post

Yep, you should build it. I mean, you'll have to build it in your listening room, as there will be no way to get it through a door, but....

By my back of the envelope calculations, I should be able to feel it here in South Carolina when you fire it up, heh.

Keith

It won't be so bad. I've already got a 710L ported cab in my living room as it is. It's over 1000L external and over 300lbs too. I've got a 10000ft space at a warehouse that has a nice big field on the side with a ramp as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatawan View Post

I did wuss out, not because of the size, but because I would have to cut it off at 50Hz or so and waste all that mid-bass goodness. I also wasn't comfortable with all the fiddling around it would need to get it right. It's difficult to "fiddle" with such a large box and large driver.

This is my main reservation too along with the size. The response above 70hz or so looks bad in the sims if you go for any depth out of the TH and what's the point if you don't? It's a shame to mess up the beautiful top end. I keep reading that the response really won't be bad like that, they can be tamed with damping, or stuffing,or bends in the horn path and that the resonances in the sims are overblown a bit. I'm not so sure. I've seen a few measurements that seem to indicate this, but they aren't as thorough as I'd like.

Here I am talking myself back into using a cheap driver on something smaller first to see what's up. It's probably a good idea. Hmmm.
post #26 of 63
I know hearing the th50 got my interest going. I printed tom danleys white paper on tapped horns and its sitting on my desk here at work staring at me. I will probably take it home and read it. Is there any more of a novice guide to learning how they work? I see you guys have a link to a 100+ page thread on here and I would like to read it but just don't have days of time just to decide if this is something I want to pursue or not.

I generally know how they work. But my knowledge is about like someone saying I know a ported box has a hole in it and that's it.
post #27 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

This is my main reservation too along with the size. The response above 70hz or so looks bad in the sims if you go for any depth out of the TH and what's the point if you don't? It's a shame to mess up the beautiful top end. I keep reading that the response really won't be bad like that, they can be tamed with damping, or stuffing,or bends in the horn path and that the resonances in the sims are overblown a bit. I'm not so sure. I've seen a few measurements that seem to indicate this, but they aren't as thorough as I'd like.

Here I am talking myself back into using a cheap driver on something smaller first to see what's up. It's probably a good idea. Hmmm.

I've thought about doing the same. Even buying two Tang Band 1139's and putting one in a TH (maybe Volvotreter's 30 Hz or 38 Hz horn), the other in a ported box would be fairly cheap. It would also allow for easy A/B comparisons with a stereo amp of modest power. Or two W8740P's and do the same. You could take the SPUD dimensions and halve all the areas for a single driver. Lots of choices. I'll probably have to wait a while before I do much, though, so I'm trying to live vicariously through others.

Keith
post #28 of 63
So what driver characteristics are suited to horns? Are there different characteristics which are best for tapped or folded?
post #29 of 63
Ricci I think you really want use a steep crossover before the HF hash. And even then use PEQ's to attenuate the worst out of band peaks.

At least that has been my experience, but then again I haven't done much experimenting with stuffing. I have something like 60 screws holding the bottom of my TH together so it's a total PITA to get inside.
post #30 of 63
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HornsKeith View Post

I've thought about doing the same. Even buying two Tang Band 1139's and putting one in a TH (maybe Volvotreter's 30 Hz or 38 Hz horn), the other in a ported box would be fairly cheap. It would also allow for easy A/B comparisons with a stereo amp of modest power. Or two W8740P's and do the same. You could take the SPUD dimensions and halve all the areas for a single driver. Lots of choices. I'll probably have to wait a while before I do much, though, so I'm trying to live vicariously through others.

Keith

Right. I wouldn't even want to go half the size of the THspud or tune that low with a little TB though. That thing is big and there's just not enough guts there with one little TB to make it worth tuning so low. For me anyways. Time to start looking at < $150 10's and 12's.
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