Samsung LNxxA650 Gamer's (Input Lag) Thread - Page 8

I can't thank you guys enough for creating this thread. I just purchased, and am awaiting the arrival of my ln46a650, and as another poster said I never thought to consider its ability to game when all the reviews for the tv say it's so great. It's also my first LCD, coming from a 30inch CRT. This thread has been so helpful in helping me avoid a problem I would have probably freaked out about had I not learned what I learned here. Though I do have a couple of questions in reference to something Cynn posted.

He had said that when connecting via HDMI2/PC and playing a Blu-ray it will automatically disable PC mode. My questions are: So when it disables PC mode, does this then mean all regular modes and settings adjustments then become available? This may sound like a dumb question and it probably is, but I don't have the tv yet.

My second question is: Why does it disable the PC mode if a Blu-Ray is still sending a 1080p signal through the same connection? I thought the 1080p signal being sent through is ultimately what is necessary for the HDMI2/PC trick to work and stay enabled. How can it tell the difference between a game and a movie(staying enabled vs. becoming disabled)?

Thanks again, as this thread seemingly has taught me everything I'd ever want to know about this model tv and how to avoid/deal with/and or eliminate input lag.

P.S...Probably not the best place for this question, but I figured it sort of fit with all the 1080p talk and input lag concerns. Is SF4 for the PS3 going to display in 1080p? I can't find direct info on this anywhere. Wondering simply for the fact if this will be a "game mode" game or a HDMI2/PC game without game mode enabled...

Yes all modes and adjustments unlock.


The Blu-Ray disc does indeed also send a 1080p signal but the magic is that it sends it at 24hz. PC mode only works with 1080p at 60hz. So when it gets 24hz input it just switches off PC mode. You'll know when PC mode goes on and off due to a black screen as it activates. This will also allow your Blu settings and Game settings to be different.


uk.Playstation.com has it listed as 720p. I read one report where someone reported that it was running at 1080i during an event. It's most likely 720p though as it runs at 60 frames per second. So it looks like Game Mode if you don't play the X360 version.

Just curious, is PC mode also disabled by 1080i?

To expand on what someone said earlier, if Amp is taking the current frame (1) and the previous frame (2) to create the interpolation, you will at minimum be one frame behind the current input. So in the best case scenario, if AMP processing was instantaneous, it would add 16ms of lag. It it's not instantaneous, you need to add however long it takes to process the extra frame to the 16ms.

Your logic sounds correct and it would make sense given your results. We use "dummy" pauses in the machines we build here at work, and it sometimes makes the software more stable because everything is time sync'ed.

It also makes sense that PC mode would disable the feature completely and just take the signal fed by the computer/game system.

My initial guess would have been that AMP takes a fair amount of processing time, but given the results provided by yourself and from what others have said it must be a very optimized process since it seems to run very quickly. Quite impressive considering how new the technology is.

Interesting discovery.

I still think AMP is the primary reason for the processing, therefor the lag. But I now understand selecting AMP "off" doesn't turn off the lag-causing processing.

So I believe the following is what's been discovered in this thread about gaming on this TV:

• Entertainment "game mode" via HDMI on any input turns off the "processing engine" (new term?) and feels lag-free to all but the most sensitive player.
• using a 1080p 60Hz device with a VGA or HDMI cable on input 2 named "PC" effectively eliminates all lag. The caveat is if the device leaves 1080/60 (example: a PS3 playing a 720p game or Blu-ray 24Hz disc), it will default to a previous laggy experience -- which can be fixed mostly by "game mode" (see above)
• using "game mode" or "PC mode" (above) also removes most video and sound tweaking options

If the above it true, I recommend the OP to include this information in the first post, and please edit it to adjust for accuracy and clarity.

The lag is gonna be higher obviously because it's not running in it's native resolution and 480i is the worse one. It's safe to say that even on any other good quality lcd tv regardless if it's 1080p or 720p, 480i will run with a little more input lag than running in the tv's native resolution.

The real question is that if run under game mode will you notice the difference since game mode on 1080p is low enough where one wouldn't really notice.

Another thing that hasn't really been tested is output lag. Unlike the PS3, the Xbox 360 scales everything to 1080p which is nice because it makes the TV's job easier, but there may be lag on the output too contributing to the overall feeling of input lag.

input/output lag is pretty much a non-issue for prerecorded content like movies and TV (outside of minor sound sync issues if using all processing features available) but for real time generated content like video games and PC usage it is important, I have no idea how one would create controlled tests for output lag though.

double post.

I would have to imagine that it would be insignificant. If the Xbox 360's scaler introduced significant lag it would be well documented by this point.

Okay, so as much as I want to purchase a 650 it is just outside of my price range.
720 vs 1080 isnt a big issue with me. Neither is glossy vs matte. My issue is lag for the impending release of SF IV.

Pretty much I was wondering if I could cut my costs by getting a 450 or 550 model and still have access to the lagless HDMI2/PC mentioned above?

I looked through the respective manuals online but couldn't get a definitive answer.

I have the 550 and I can say its a fine set to game on, the lag on the 550 and 650 is the same through VGA or HDMI2. But I wouldn't count the 650 out, you really should see both sets in person before you make your decision. Aside from gaming, I'm sure you be watching tv and movies, and I know a number of people that absolutely can not live without AMP now that they've had it on their new sets. Some people also love the reduced motion blur on a 120hz set compared to a 60hz set, others don't see much of a difference. Either way, only your eyes will tell.

How about we ALL call and email Samsung daily until they release a firmware that allows us to change basic picture settings (brightness, contrast, color, sharpness) in Entertainment/Game Mode? Make sure you tell them that Sony TVs let you adjust all picture settings in Game Mode, and that even Samsungs own xx64, xx65 & xx69 series let you adjust basic picture settings in Entertainment/Game Mode!

Also tell them that allowing PC mode to run in 720P would also be very useful in a firmware update. They aren't going to change anything unless they are made WELL aware of it.

Does anyone have experience with the service menu? Maybe there are settings in there that will change the look of Game Mode???

Anyway... keep calling and emailing Samsung daily until they release a new firmware with these requests!

US:
Customer Care Team - 1-800-SAMSUNG (726-7864)
Email - http://www.samsung.com/us/info/contactus.html#

UK:
Customer Care Team - 0845 SAMSUNG (726 7864)
Email - http://ars.samsung.com/customer/form...ID=41&AGE_ID=0

If the display is doing any scaling it's just going to cause more lag.

Good luck with that. These TVs have been out long enough that I doubt there will be anymore FW upgrades.

Also PC mode only works at the panels native resolution on all HDTVs.

You have the right idea. I did this recently and got an email back from them, though it seems to be generic, pre-written BS. I have every intention of fighting this out until they give us more customization options through a firmware update, unless someone is able to create some sort of custom firmware for the 650/750 TV's.




Here's what I wrote (I was angsty when I wrote this, don't point out the obvious flaws or any faulty information I may have given out, haha):



LN40A750, Game Mode, Adjustments, Lag

I will start off by saying that I absolutely love the picture quality on this particular set, and it blows away the competition as far as I'm concerned, but there's one issue that's driving me absolutely mad, and makes me want to get rid of this TV completely for another set, or return it and get my money back.

I'm an avid gamer, and I did a lot of research before purchasing my first HDTV, believe me. From what I read around the net, it seemed as if this TV was good for gaming, had minimal to no lag (game mode), and just overall was wonderful for current-gen systems. I use the TV mostly for gaming, and have my PS3 and Wii both hooked up. Wii is hooked via component cables, and the PS3 via HDMI.

Upon first booting up my Wii, I anxiously started a game of Super Smash Brothers Melee, only to immediately notice the lag (this was in standard mode). I immediately looked at the manual, and realized there was a game mode, so I switched it, and to my joy, the lag had virtually disappeared.

Now, although that was the case, I found that the picture quality was way too sharp and bright, which made everything look overly saturated and pixelated. So I'm sitting there and I figure, 'Hey, no big deal. I'll just adjust the sharpness among other color settings and it'll all be perfect'.

Wrong.

Pretty much all of the useful settings to make the game look better were missing, and even if I were to go to standard mode and turn off all of the features that would induce lag (same settings as game mode), the lag would still be there.

I'm incredibly disappointed that other sets such as Sony's W4100 are comparable, yet allow for it's owners to adjust brightness, contrast, etc... settings under game mode. My TV doesn't. Even when playing my Playstation 3 under game mode, I can't help but find it to be saturated and overly sharp.

I think it's very deceiving that nowhere on this site or Amazon where I purchased it for that matter, states that most of the settings on game mode are locked out, or state anything about lag at all. This is a very shady practice, and I won't put up with this. I tried giving the TV a while, thinking maybe I'd warm up to the limited game mode or that a firmware release would solve the issue, but nothing.

Now, I want to know if there will ever be a firmware release to fix the issue and unlock certain settings like sharpness/brightness in game mode, or if I'm stuck with my limited gaming adjustments thanks to the lack of information on Samsung's site about this TV.

I worked hard to earn money in order to purchase this set, and I am not satisfied by this lack of information which would have held me back from purchasing the 750 had I known in advance.

I expect a reply, otherwise I'll have to phone up the company and complain there.

Thanks for reading this ridiculously long message, I know you have nothing to do with how the sets are made or designed and I'm venting, but please, any help here would be great as I'm a huge gamer, and all of this is hard to swallow.




They replied with this:





Thank you for contacting Samsung Technical Support.



We will like you to write our corporate headquarters address on this.

Samsung Electronics USA

Office of the President

400 Valley Rd. Suite 201

Mount Arlington, NJ 07856


If you have any other question, please contact Samsung at 1-800-SAMSUNG.

I'll be sending off my letter on Friday. Anyone else?

Does anyone have any Rock Band 2 Playstation 3 version video lag numbers. using game mode on HDMI 2? I don't know if it should be in the -25 or just 25.

I only have RB1. Doesn't 2 have the calibration options where you strum at a specific time in order to set the delay? If it does - why not just use that?

It's really odd cause RB2 has some odd things going on with calibrations. I'll give it another shot tonight but it sometimes fails out when doing the strum test.It would be great to know what people with the same TV are using through

I will test out RB1 when my TV arrives on the 9th & let you know.

Anyone happen to try that VGA box I mentioned to see if it forces the PS3 to 1080p in PC Mode?

Out of curiosity, I hooked my 360 into HDMI2 and called it PC. I didn't have much problems with it in Game Mode on HDMI1, but I was just curious.

I found the picture to be noticeably softer. This might appeal to those that don't like the razor-sharp look of the other inputs, and jaggies are somewhat smoothed out... but I went back to HDMI1 w/ Game Mode because I like the extra detail.

I'll try to remember to try each in Rock Band 2 tomorrow and post my results.

Keeping in mind Rock Band 2 has different lag findings than other games...

My findings for lag in RB2:
HDMI1 "Game Mode": Video Offset 24 to 44ms, settled for 30ms
HDMI2 "PC Mode": Video Offset -4 to 22ms range, settled for 12ms

Note that these numbers are positive ("+") numbers unless indicated with a "-". My tests were done with in-game calibration using an ION wired drum controller. Numbers can vary widely based on performance/accuracy during tests. The audio calibration numbers are irreverent because I'm running through a separate JVC Dolby Headphone unit. Also, as mentioned, the HDMI2 "PC Mode" is a noticeably softer image than the other input's "Game Mode"

Bottom line:
My findings are in line with the OP: HDMI2 "PC Mode" is pretty much lag-free on a Samsung LNxxA650. However, HDMI1's "Game Mode" is almost as lag free (very acceptable on my end) and presents a sharper image. My personal preference is to stick with Game Mode -- YMMV.