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Samsung LNxxA650 Gamer's (Input Lag) Thread - Page 10

post #271 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton View Post

I've only been playing Resistance 2 and Uncharted, two of my small list of 1080 scaling PS3 games, and have noticed no such problem. Both have played perfectly under HDMI2 - PC Mode.

Really? well that now get me nervous and get me thinking I should contact samsung. Its a shame I really dont want anyone tacking part my tv. It works perfect exept for the above stated... oh well...
post #272 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darvan View Post

Okay guys sorry for the late post, TV I'm using is a Samsung Ln52A750 I bought Rock Band 2 for the PS3. So I'm running the game in Game Mode on HDMI 2. Since I also have a 360 I have the label set to PC. I used Auto Calibration using the guitar I ran the test 10 times and here is what I got.

1.) 48
2.) 45
3.) 47
4.) 48
5.) 44
6.) 45
7.) 60
8.) 58
9.) 59
10.) 60

Now what I don't get is why towards the end the amount went up when doing the auto cal as you can see it was pretty much in the 40~ until until test 7. How I did the test I ran auto cal once the number came up I would back out to test again and reran it. I'm also wondering if having the TV label PC and it being in game mode is causing any issues.

I use the GH guitar (wired) on my RB2 (on X360). When I do manual tests it's anywhere from 0 to -32 lag. Try the test by actually playing. Auto cal is known to be wonky. There's no way you should be getting numbers that high in game mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paisita18 View Post

I have been searching in this thead for an answer but no luck so I am going to try to explain my issue as best as I can

When I try to play both Metal Gear Solid 4 or COD:WOW (the only games that I have that the PS3 upscales to 1080p) online. I will occasionally get a "POP" sound and my screen will go totally black for like 3-5 seconds and then the image will just re-appear. This does not happen anytime else nor with any other game or any bluray movie.

this issue also doesn't happen very often. maybe twice in a 2 hour gaming span.

Has anyone gotten this problem before? any help would be appreciated.

I have probably over 100 hours in PC mode and I've never had this happen over the course of my consoles. Usually popping sounds are from heat. Signal loss is bad though. May need to get a service call in.
post #273 of 663
Also to note: HDFury 2 does not work with the Series 6 Samsungs. At least by my tests and troubleshooting with the makers of the device. If by the end of the week we can't find a solution the notation of them not working should be added to the first post.
post #274 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynn View Post

Also to note: HDFury 2 does not work with the Series 6 Samsungs. At least by my tests and troubleshooting with the makers of the device. If by the end of the week we can't find a solution the notation of them not working should be added to the first post.

Is this an HDCP issue or any ideas why?
I thought I had read of people using it in the 650 owners thread. Maybe it was in another thread, though.
post #275 of 663
I would have spent my $ on the XCM 1080p Mega-Cool VGA Box before buying HDFury 2. HDFury doesn't even upscale.

Still waiting for a PS3 owner to try this out on PC Mode with a 720p title.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJj1E...eature=related

I'd order one myself for testing but I'm flat broke after buying the tv, tv stand, a stack of blu-rays, a media stand, hdmi cables, blah, blah, blah. That VGA Box just MAY be the simple answer all PS3 owners are looking for.
post #276 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

I would have spent my $ on the XCM 1080p Mega-Cool VGA Box before buying HDFury 2. HDFury doesn't even upscale.

Still waiting for a PS3 owner to try this out on PC Mode with a 720p title.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJj1E...eature=related

I'd order one myself for testing but I'm flat broke after buying the tv, tv stand, a stack of blu-rays, a media stand, hdmi cables, blah, blah, blah. That VGA Box just MAY be the simple answer all PS3 owners are looking for.

Well, the HDFury is a bit different in that it takes an HDMI (digital signal) and outputs VGA (rgb - analog) while handling HDCP.

This simply takes component (analog) and outputs (and possibly upscales) VGA (analog). This makes it a much more simple device (electronically) and the only real "advanced circuitry" would be the upscaler.

These differences seem to almost justify the price difference.
(I did say almost.. didn't I?)
post #277 of 663
I believe the box handles HDCP as well, and there really is maybe a 1% difference in PQ when using component vs hdmi. The point of the entire thing is upscaling for those who wish to have their PS3 set up via HDMI2/PC Mode and have it stick when playing non 1080p titles.
post #278 of 663
Hey guys this is my first post here. And I love this thread and was hoping that somebody can answer my question.

I read through all the pages, and at one point I thought I had the information I needed but now I think I just ended up confusing myself more.

Here is the situation:

LN46A650 TV set
I have a PRE-HDMI Xbox 360 currently hooked up to my old 32 lcd in TV via the VGA cable. I mainly played games at 720p resolution as it isn't a 1080p set.

What I am wondering, with this new samsung set (just bought it, not yet delivered) what should I do in order to achieve the best quality with reduced amount of lag? I read the VGA cable has the best numbers, but then I also read that the VGA cable isn't supported. Also, here is the mix up I might be getting, is that I read with VGA, some video adjustment options are disabled?

I am really new to this type of technology, as my 32 in TV is a bit simple.

I guess my main question and issue is, what would be the best settings via VGA Xbox as far as performance wise, and how to get it to work/look the best. Can someone make this more clear please?

I keep getting mixed up with the HDMI/PC talk here, and I think that's where you guys lost me.

Thanks in advance guys. Its greatly appreciated
post #279 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneBadLT123 View Post

Hey guys this is my first post here. And I love this thread and was hoping that somebody can answer my question.

I read through all the pages, and at one point I thought I had the information I needed but now I think I just ended up confusing myself more.

Here is the situation:

LN46A650 TV set
I have a PRE-HDMI Xbox 360 currently hooked up to my old 32 lcd in TV via the VGA cable. I mainly played games at 720p resolution as it isn't a 1080p set.

What I am wondering, with this new samsung set (just bought it, not yet delivered) what should I do in order to achieve the best quality with reduced amount of lag? I read the VGA cable has the best numbers, but then I also read that the VGA cable isn't supported. Also, here is the mix up I might be getting, is that I read with VGA, some video adjustment options are disabled?

I am really new to this type of technology, as my 32 in TV is a bit simple.

I guess my main question and issue is, what would be the best settings via VGA Xbox as far as performance wise, and how to get it to work/look the best. Can someone make this more clear please?

I keep getting mixed up with the HDMI/PC talk here, and I think that's where you guys lost me.

Thanks in advance guys. Its greatly appreciated

You'll want to set your Xbox 360 using your VGA cable and set the resolution to 1080p. That should give you the best result, lag wise and you'll have more picture controls than you would using component with game mode.
post #280 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneBadLT123 View Post

Hey guys this is my first post here. And I love this thread and was hoping that somebody can answer my question.

I read through all the pages, and at one point I thought I had the information I needed but now I think I just ended up confusing myself more.

Here is the situation:

LN46A650 TV set
I have a PRE-HDMI Xbox 360 currently hooked up to my old 32 lcd in TV via the VGA cable. I mainly played games at 720p resolution as it isn't a 1080p set.

What I am wondering, with this new samsung set (just bought it, not yet delivered) what should I do in order to achieve the best quality with reduced amount of lag? I read the VGA cable has the best numbers, but then I also read that the VGA cable isn't supported. Also, here is the mix up I might be getting, is that I read with VGA, some video adjustment options are disabled?

I am really new to this type of technology, as my 32 in TV is a bit simple.

I guess my main question and issue is, what would be the best settings via VGA Xbox as far as performance wise, and how to get it to work/look the best. Can someone make this more clear please?

I keep getting mixed up with the HDMI/PC talk here, and I think that's where you guys lost me.

Thanks in advance guys. Its greatly appreciated

If you already have a VGA cable you would likely want to use that for gaming.

If you want to watch movies (on your xbox), you may want to connect it via HDMI and not use PC mode. Then when you are gaming enable PC mode by renaming the input to PC (and back afterward).

Either way you will want (need) to change your Xbox to output 1080P.
post #281 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

I believe the box handles HDCP as well, and there really is maybe a 1% difference in PQ when using component vs hdmi. The point of the entire thing is upscaling for those who wish to have their PS3 set up via HDMI2/PC Mode and have it stick when playing non 1080p titles.

Yup, I was just stating that there was more to the HDFury.
I believe the ps3 limited to 1080i over component?

HDCP is digital only and I think some titles may be limited to 480P without HDCP.
Although I'm not sure if this has started to really be enforced.
post #282 of 663
You are correct, the PS3 is limited to 1080i max using component. I was thinking that with the box, one would go from the PS3 via HDMI to an HDMI to component adapter, to the box, then to the tele. Wouldn't that pretty much 'trick' the PS3 into still outputting 1080p?
post #283 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post

I think you would find most LCD's/Plasma's would test out in the ~40ms range (under normal operation).
From what information I have seen on other sets, this seems to be fairly common.

Many people assume because they see tests of the Samsung line having input lag they think it only applies to it and other brands/models are not suffering from the same type of input lag.

Samsung deserves all the criticism they get (and more) as far as I'm concerned. The standard modes on these models (6/7/8/9) are very likely double what you would see from other manufacturers--especially those with good reputations in this regard (Sony/Sharp/Panasonic). I believe the 9G Kuro's are CRT clone measured at 45ms in standard modes, and it really shouldn't be surprising they probably use more aggressive processing than other makes.
post #284 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

The lag is gonna be higher obviously because it's not running in it's native resolution and 480i is the worse one. It's safe to say that even on any other good quality lcd tv regardless if it's 1080p or 720p, 480i will run with a little more input lag than running in the tv's native resolution.

The real question is that if run under game mode will you notice the difference since game mode on 1080p is low enough where one wouldn't really notice.

It is not my problem since my LCD Panel is nearly CRT speed when it come for input lag in 480i.(Note: those test was done by just switching the S-video cable by leaving the timer running, so the test is pretty much accurate)

JVC Iart (you know the old SDTV AV27FA44) in S-video(upper diplay) vs a vga display plug in VGA(lower display):


My LCD panel in S-video(left display) vs the VGA display plug in VGA(right display):


I won't tell which Panel it is but if you're good on googling or Youtubing you may find it.
post #285 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

You are correct, the PS3 is limited to 1080i max using component. I was thinking that with the box, one would go from the PS3 via HDMI to an HDMI to component adapter, to the box, then to the tele. Wouldn't that pretty much 'trick' the PS3 into still outputting 1080p?

Wait... is that even correct? I think it outputs 1080p via component if the television allows it. I believe it's up to the televison, not the PS3.
post #286 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

Wait... is that even correct? I think it outputs 1080p via component if the television allows it. I believe it's up to the televison, not the PS3.

I believe it is capable but due to all the contractual obligations with hi-def movie studios, they only allow 1080P with HDCP. It instead will display 1080i/720p.
This is what I touched on previously when I mentioned HDCP and the HDFury.

I haven't used component in a couple years, so I really do not have any personal experience with attempting to watch HD movies at 1080P with it.
I have just read that their are limitations and it seemed to be hit or miss at best?

I believe this only applies to movies and not games.
post #287 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Deap View Post

It is not my problem since my LCD Panel is nearly CRT speed when it come for input lag in 480i.(Note: those test was done by just switching the S-video cable by leaving the timer running, so the test is pretty much accurate)

JVC Iart (you know the old SDTV AV27FA44) in S-video(upper diplay) vs a vga display plug in VGA(lower display):


My LCD panel in S-video(left display) vs the VGA display plug in VGA(right display):


I won't tell which Panel it is but if you're good on googling or Youtubing you may find it.

I'm not even sure what you just said or tested. I read that probably 5 times.

And your LCD definitely does not appear to be in 480i?

I think you are comparing your PC hooked up to your LCD and also a JVC TV connected via S-Video?
post #288 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

Wait... is that even correct? I think it outputs 1080p via component if the television allows it. I believe it's up to the televison, not the PS3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post

I believe it is capable but due to all the contractual obligations with hi-def movie studios, they only allow 1080P with HDCP. It instead will display 1080i/720p.
This is what I touched on previously when I mentioned HDCP and the HDFury.

I haven't used component in a couple years, so I really do not have any personal experience with attempting to watch HD movies at 1080P with it.
I have just read that their are limitations and it seemed to be hit or miss at best?

I believe this only applies to movies and not games.

This seems accurate (unless they have changed Blu-ray standards, which I doubt). Here is some of what I had read previously.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=2121

"Well, 1080p is possible over component, but not from Blu-ray Disc. The Blu-ray standards indicate that when component video is used, the highest output that can be sent (allowable) is 1080i. IF the image contraint token (ICT) is not enabled. If the ICT is enabled, the video must be down converted to 540p!

So, a flat statement in the world of Blu-ray is that 1080p is not possible over component video."
post #289 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post

I'm not even sure what you just said or tested. I read that probably 5 times.

And your LCD definitely does not appear to be in 480i?

I think you are comparing your PC hooked up to your LCD and also a JVC TV connected via S-Video?

Here take a whole watch of the 9 minute video comparing display lag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbvreeOk7PA

Like I said I leave it running & just unplug the cable. S-video cable comparison start a 1:45 if you don't feel to see the whole video.
post #290 of 663
I don't understand what you mean by plugging s-video, that's like the worse thing you can do besides using the composite cable (yellow).

Someone posted this up [

The computer's video card adds too many variables. Cloning the screen from your video card, the card doesn't process both the images at the exact same time - it's impossible, since it needs to split the image into brightness and color for the s-video. VGA is analog, but it still doesn't need to be converted, etc. so it's also lagless. Sure, the tv might add some lag, but it's not measurable until you know exactly how much you have from the video card.

Comparing one vga monitor to another at s-video to tv is not a fair comparison.
post #291 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmanvbva View Post

Is this an HDCP issue or any ideas why?
I thought I had read of people using it in the 650 owners thread. Maybe it was in another thread, though.

I have no idea what the issue is and working with them to troubleshoot is a bit hard due to language. By searching their forum I found several modern Samsung owners in the same boat. I am still trying to work through it with them though. For people who don't understand the appeal of an HDFury, most of us are interested in it due to it's excellent color conversion and super sharp image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

I would have spent my $ on the XCM 1080p Mega-Cool VGA Box before buying HDFury 2. HDFury doesn't even upscale.

Still waiting for a PS3 owner to try this out on PC Mode with a 720p title.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJj1E...eature=related

I'd order one myself for testing but I'm flat broke after buying the tv, tv stand, a stack of blu-rays, a media stand, hdmi cables, blah, blah, blah. That VGA Box just MAY be the simple answer all PS3 owners are looking for.

I did just that. I got my MCVB week before last and like the HDFury, it would not sync with the Samsung at 1080p. It would only sync at sub 720p res. (via both consoles) That's ok though because the upscale quality was pretty bad. It's nowhere near as good as XCM's past VGA boxes. It was super cheap at $60.00 though.

In that event I stopped being cheap and got myself a DVDO Edge. (I have wanted one for a long time) Now my PS3 is in full 1080p at all times and looks NICE in PC mode with the color and contrast tweaked via DVDO. It also does a nice job with the Wii @ 1080p.

Thanks to Fudoh for being nice enough to answer all of my DVDO questions. He's the master of console scaling by far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Samsung deserves all the criticism they get (and more) as far as I'm concerned. The standard modes on these models (6/7/8/9) are very likely double what you would see from other manufacturers--especially those with good reputations in this regard (Sony/Sharp/Panasonic). I believe the 9G Kuro's are CRT clone measured at 45ms in standard modes, and it really shouldn't be surprising they probably use more aggressive processing than other makes.

It has double of most 60hz LCDs in normal modes yes. As does any LCD TV with 120hz motion tools. This isn't a Samsung issue as much as it is an issue for all future LCDs, especially when we are already jumping to 240hz. (the Sony 120hz LCDs suffer the same way) Samsung unlike the other brands though gives us zero lag options as opposed to slightly lower normal mode times. I'd rather have the option to enjoy amazing movie quality modes and zero lag game modes than a TV with all around average input lag speeds and image quality.
post #292 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

I don't understand what you mean by plugging s-video, that's like the worse thing you can do besides using the composite cable (yellow).

Someone posted this up [

The computer's video card adds too many variables. Cloning the screen from your video card, the card doesn't process both the images at the exact same time - it's impossible, since it needs to split the image into brightness and color for the s-video. VGA is analog, but it still doesn't need to be converted, etc. so it's also lagless. Sure, the tv might add some lag, but it's not measurable until you know exactly how much you have from the video card.

Comparing one vga monitor to another at s-video to tv is not a fair comparison.

after he added.

Sorry, I didn't see the end and noticed it was the same time. I would delete my earlier comment, but youtube won't let me. :/

Not in the way I did. The graphic card didn't turn off the display on the S-video output during the whole video.

LCD>CRT>LCD

Though, during the youtube video, you clearly see that the JVC CRT had the same number as the VGA display.

I know & I clearly feel that you are searching for an excuse, but the procedure is 100% accurate. The picture shown above is real, but that's due that the refresh rate isn't sync in real time which you may get 8ms(half of a frame) of difference between the real number taken with a camera.

Testing 480i is useful, because I can play with my old PS2 & capture gameplay in real time.(Note: Capture card lag bad)
post #293 of 663
Let's keep our talk on the Samsung 650 please. A PC monitor thread should be in the HTPC area.
post #294 of 663
Hey, I'm in the process of choosing a LCD (for gaming purposes) and the Samsung is at the top of the list.

However, I have one question. I don't see a Game Mode /1080p listed for Component. Does a game mode not exist for this? (I'm curious because my Xbox 360 only has component cables not an HDMI out).

Thanks.
post #295 of 663
Ok I am just getting confused reading through all of this ...

I tried the 650 hooked up VIA HDMI to my PS3. I was playing MLB 08 The Show because it has a pitch meter (for testing lag and such).

There is noticable lag.

When Game Mode is on, the lag is virtually eliminated. However, I can't adjust my picture quality

So I'm thinking to myself, Game Mode is essentially removing all of the processing.

SO...would I be able to reduce the lag if I turn off the AMP settings, variable backlighting (not sure the technical name), etc... ?


I would still like to be able to adjust brightness, contrast, colors and the like, but remove the HIGH END processing stuff to eliminate as much lag as possible.

Please dumb your answers down for me

Much appreciated!
post #296 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Deap View Post

Here take a whole watch of the 9 minute video comparing display lag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbvreeOk7PA

Like I said I leave it running & just unplug the cable. S-video cable comparison start a 1:45 if you don't feel to see the whole video.

LCD>CRT>LCD

I'm confused by this because the initial test in the video compared the LCD using HDMI, and the CRT monitor using VGA, and it showed the CRT monitor ahead, but in the video (and again here) you say the LCD panel is ahead?? The 2nd pic clearly shows the CRT monitor reading 28.063 and the LCD reading 28.047, which means the LCD is lagging behind by 16ms.

What was interesting though was that the later S-video test still showed the LCD panel only lagging behind by 16ms. Which, from what I can tell means, there's no additional lag introduced when sending a S-Video 480i signal vs a native resolution HDMI signal.

The HDMI signal being sent was in the LCD's native resolution, correct?

The reason I ask is my laptop doesn't have HDMI output, so I bought a DVI-HDMI cable to test with....but for some reason when I connect it to my 650, it shows the source as being 1080i, not 1080p, and it seems just as laggy as connecting my laptop via S-Video in 480i. The de-interlacing process seems to be the most lag inducing part of the process. So whether it's 480i or 1080i, the lag introduced is comparable.

But when I connect via VGA @ 1080p, the lag is virtually non-existent. So it's important to note what signal is sent when you test.
post #297 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deutscher View Post

Ok I am just getting confused reading through all of this ...

I tried the 650 hooked up VIA HDMI to my PS3. I was playing MLB 08 The Show because it has a pitch meter (for testing lag and such).

There is noticable lag.

When Game Mode is on, the lag is virtually eliminated. However, I can't adjust my picture quality

So I'm thinking to myself, Game Mode is essentially removing all of the processing.

SO...would I be able to reduce the lag if I turn off the AMP settings, variable backlighting (not sure the technical name), etc... ?


I would still like to be able to adjust brightness, contrast, colors and the like, but remove the HIGH END processing stuff to eliminate as much lag as possible.

Please dumb your answers down for me

Much appreciated!


Thoughts?
post #298 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deutscher View Post

Ok I am just getting confused reading through all of this ...

I tried the 650 hooked up VIA HDMI to my PS3. I was playing MLB 08 The Show because it has a pitch meter (for testing lag and such).

There is noticable lag.

When Game Mode is on, the lag is virtually eliminated. However, I can't adjust my picture quality

So I'm thinking to myself, Game Mode is essentially removing all of the processing.

SO...would I be able to reduce the lag if I turn off the AMP settings, variable backlighting (not sure the technical name), etc... ?


I would still like to be able to adjust brightness, contrast, colors and the like, but remove the HIGH END processing stuff to eliminate as much lag as possible.

Please dumb your answers down for me

Much appreciated!

You can to a degree (and there's test results in this thread showing such) but it won't go down to game mode standards. If the game is 1080p you can use HDMI 2 in PC mode to go lagless and have more options but it will only work on 1080p games.
post #299 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deutscher View Post

Ok I am just getting confused reading through all of this ...

I tried the 650 hooked up VIA HDMI to my PS3. I was playing MLB 08 The Show because it has a pitch meter (for testing lag and such).

There is noticable lag.

When Game Mode is on, the lag is virtually eliminated. However, I can't adjust my picture quality

So I'm thinking to myself, Game Mode is essentially removing all of the processing.

SO...would I be able to reduce the lag if I turn off the AMP settings, variable backlighting (not sure the technical name), etc... ?


I would still like to be able to adjust brightness, contrast, colors and the like, but remove the HIGH END processing stuff to eliminate as much lag as possible.

Please dumb your answers down for me

Much appreciated!

It's in the original post, he still measured around 60ms with every feature turned off. Also note that his control is a standard LCD PC monitor that is likely using overdrive. Honestly, you probably need to add a little more time to all of his posted values. I know earlier in the 650 thread (and even a couple reviews), there was a lot of agreement on ~20-30ms PC modes and ~80ms standard modes. I'm more inclined to go with those values until someone busts out a CRT clone test.
post #300 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deutscher View Post


When Game Mode is on, the lag is virtually eliminated. However, I can't adjust my picture quality

What picture quality options are you wanting to adjust?

I find the TV's Game Mode (firmware 1003M, HDMI set to normal in "Picture Options") to be a great default brightness/contrast/color. Most tweaking options for brightness are available in most games.

That said, I like the sharpest picture possible -- some people prefer a softer picture because of jaggies, so I can see a case for wanting access to "sharpness" control.
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