or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays › Samsung LNxxA650 Gamer's (Input Lag) Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Samsung LNxxA650 Gamer's (Input Lag) Thread - Page 17

post #481 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

Don't worry it is just scan when hdmi2/pc or vga it just says 16x9 even though its the same as just scan already tested it.

16x9 in non-pc modes is overscanning but in pc mode it is the same as just scan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

16:9 mode is in fact the same as "Just Scan" when you are using VGA or HDMI2/PC mode. 1:1 pixel mapping. EDIT2: Felony beat me to it, lol.

Thanks for explaining that -- Why on Earth didn't Samsung label the active setting as Just Scan then, if that's what it's using?? My obvious assumption was, and still would be if not for asking about it here, that it was causing overscan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

...you are going to want Expanded Reference Levels/RGB for VGA on the xbox side, this is for sure. VGA natively outputs 0-255/RGB. The "softer image" is probably very close to what you would see using the xbox on HDMI2/PC mode (with the same dashboard settings). This is actually a "true" picture (true to the source) and bypasses any processing by the TV*. Some people think it looks worse, but it's much closer to what the actual content really looks like - if you are used to game mode/regular hdmi/etc., you may very well think it is softer. There is no edge enhancement/sharpness boosting/etc.

While my first impression is that I really don't like how aliased the on screen text and 3D objects become, the black level is handled perfectly. At least on my A530. It's still dark, but you can make out just a bit more detail in the shadows than when using HDMI2/PC or Game Mode.

Also, I still haven't been able to get any audio out of the VGA connection. So if anyone has any tips, that would be helpful. I'm wondering if it has to do with my HDMI2 port being labeled as PC. I didn't think to switch the label to something else once I plugged in the VGA last night. I may give that a shot tonight if I have time.

Doug
post #482 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug S79 View Post

I would think component using Game Mode would be okay... According to the results in the first post of this thread, that would yield between 15-25 milliseconds of input lag. Even at 25 ms, that's only 1/40th of a second... I don't know for sure, but I don't think this would cause any noticeable problems (I did ask for input/feedback on this exact question in a previous post, but haven't heard either way on if it's noticeable).

Doug

What is your question?

Are you asking if 15-25ms (by using Game Mode with Component) of lag is noticeable? It's actually going to come down to the individual if it's noticeable or not. And I think it's going to depend on what you're doing as well. 15-25ms of lag would be noticeable if I was using my PC with that much lag - the mouse cursor would move after I move the actual mouse. It would be a slight time offset. Hell, I can still see the very slight lag from HDMI2/PC Mode using my mouse, but it's so negligible that I had to do a direct comparison vs. my LCD monitor (which probably also has some input lag but it's so close to zero it's impossible to tell) in order to "see" it. And even then, it's SO close to what my LCD monitor shows, that I can't see it ever making a real-world difference (and it doesn't). And I have an eye for this kind of detail - if I can deem it satisfactory for PC first person "twitch shooters", nobody else should have any problems IMO.

IMO Game Mode has the slightest perceivable lag (to ME), whether HDMI or Component - the lag is the same. I know it's there to a small extent, but it hasn't affected my gameplay on anything so far. Rock Band, GH, etc. may need a little bit of lag offset still - I haven't played RB since I got my a630 so I can't comment on the lag timings on that with Game Mode (perhaps ask DaverJ - seems like he plays RB on his set, and he uses Game Mode).
post #483 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

I haven't played RB since I got my a630 so I can't comment on the lag timings on that with Game Mode (perhaps ask DaverJ - seems like he plays RB on his set, and he uses Game Mode).

The Rock Band and Guitar Hero games have calibration built into the game, so system lag isn't as important because you can compensate. Plus the Rock Band engine has its own lag. But I think with Game Mode I get around 30ms lag or so in Rock Band, and around zero for Guitar Hero games.
post #484 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

What is your question?

Are you asking if 15-25ms (by using Game Mode with Component) of lag is noticeable? It's actually going to come down to the individual if it's noticeable or not. And I think it's going to depend on what you're doing as well. 15-25ms of lag would be noticeable if I was using my PC with that much lag - the mouse cursor would move after I move the actual mouse. It would be a slight time offset. Hell, I can still see the very slight lag from HDMI2/PC Mode using my mouse, but it's so negligible that I had to do a direct comparison vs. my LCD monitor (which probably also has some input lag but it's so close to zero it's impossible to tell) in order to "see" it. And even then, it's SO close to what my LCD monitor shows, that I can't see it ever making a real-world difference (and it doesn't). And I have an eye for this kind of detail - if I can deem it satisfactory for PC first person "twitch shooters", nobody else should have any problems IMO.

IMO Game Mode has the slightest perceivable lag (to ME), whether HDMI or Component - the lag is the same. I know it's there to a small extent, but it hasn't affected my gameplay on anything so far. Rock Band, GH, etc. may need a little bit of lag offset still - I haven't played RB since I got my a630 so I can't comment on the lag timings on that with Game Mode (perhaps ask DaverJ - seems like he plays RB on his set, and he uses Game Mode).

It probably got lost in the midst of my myriad other questions, all within a few posts, so it's of little wonder nobody caught it the first time.

This was my original question:

Quote:


...between VGA, HDMI2 on PC, or even HDMI/Component on Game Mode. Has anyone noticed a difference in actual usage between any of these 3 settings?

And you did answer it, for the most part. So thanks!

Doug
post #485 of 663
Someone pointed out something in the thread about using 360 with reference level at standard and have the hdmi black level at normal to lighten up the picture where the blacks that are crushed in Game Mode will be uncrushed with the rest of image looking good.

I tried it out with Call of Duty 4 and have to say it really did look well presented with some of the noticeable blacks that were crushed not being crushed anymore.

I know it intentionally washes out the picture but since game mode crushes blacks and whitens whites then doing this process will balance it out enough to look ok.



I compare screen shots of the TV with HDMI Black Level Normal on both the 360 on Standard Reference Level+Game Mode vs. HDMI2/PC with the 360 on Expanded Reference Level.

Guess what looking it over it brought out the shadow details that were missing in Game Mode+360 Expanded as how HDMI2/PC does.

Game Mode+360 Standard image color quality was better without having the image being too blurry.

Just giving out this detail to anyone who would like to use Game Mode but notice the blacks being crushed on their games (ex. Socom and its black issues).

This would be helpful to ps3 users out there who need low input lag but PC Mode don't work (720p Game) and need just the blacks to not be crushed.

So for PS3 have the RGB at Limited but always have the TV's HDMI Black Level at Normal. Other way around will just crush blacks even more.

So just try it out people and decide for yourself...
When going back to movies dvds/blu-rays/360 videos it won't matter since it will be outputting YCbCr and Normal or Low will be greyed out if you have it set for auto on the 360 and YCbCr and superwhite turned on in PS3.




*EDIT*My custom gaming settings (EVIL4BLUE-slightly tweaked) has the blacks being darker than HDMI2/PC but not crushed and doing the TV HDMI Black Level at Normal+360 at Intermediate Reference Level was comparable to my custom settings.

I would like to hear input from the Socom PS3 players on this since they noticed the blacks being crushed heavily for that game...

This could help out users who don't favorably like PC mode's soft image but can't get around blacks being crushed on GAME MODE so they settled for PC mode.

Also for users who have no choice but GAME MODE but hate the blacks being crushed so this will help.

If you notice input lag then obviously use your own custom settings lol...
post #486 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug S79 View Post

...Also, I still haven't been able to get any audio out of the VGA connection...

Disregard.. It would've helped if I'd RTFM. Haha. Apparently the only option for Audio In when using the VGA port is a dedicated Optical Audio input beside the video input. In my own defense, FWIW, my set is wall-mounted, and it appeared, from the extremely limited angle at which I could see the back of the TV, that the corresponding audio input was the analog stereo input right below the VGA port. Haha. Oh well, you know what they say about assuming things... Although, in this case, I guess there's no "u", but just "me." Haha.

Doug
post #487 of 663
Originally Posted by DJBUDDY View Post
So now im all confused, so i should have my ps3 set to rgb limited and hdmi black on tv to normal? or ps3 on full and tv on normal also>? or ps3 full and tv on low?>

Nooo... reread what I wrote only for people wanting to use GAME MODE but 'only' hate the way it crushes blacks.

If your using custom settings or PC MODE (VGA or HDMI) just have it match up correctly with

PS3RGB FULL=TV Normal or PS3 RGB Limited=TV Low
360 Expanded=TV Normal or 360 Standard=TV Low


The method I'm talking about is to balance out the image on GAME MODE... for example matching it improper like what I did will washed it out a bit but since GAME MODE crushes blacks it will balance it out that image will have the blacks not crushed while the image itself still looks good.

Only for GAME MODE users who complain about the crushed blacks try out

360 Standard=TV Normal or *360 Intermediate=TV Normal*
PS3 RGB Limited=TV Normal -Not the other way around-

Everyone else have it matched up properly... just giving out a suggestion and helping out in giving more choices.

This helps out people who hate HDMI2/PC picture but GAME MODE's crushed blacks gets in the way of enjoying GAME MODE.

Compared pics of COD 4 with proper HDMI2/PC and GAME MODE(TV Normal+360 Standard) and the image was better than PC MODE while seeing black details.
post #488 of 663
Hmm...I don't have any issue with Game Mode crushing blacks on my 360 (Set to Expanded/RGB - TV on Normal). I verified this with a test image that shows blacks under 16 and whites over 235 (as well as shades in between). Each shade was visible. I can post the link for the image and you can test it on you're 360 if you think you're getting black crush.
post #489 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

Hmm...I don't have any issue with Game Mode crushing blacks on my 360 (Set to Expanded/RGB - TV on Normal). I verified this with a test image that shows blacks under 16 and whites over 235 (as well as shades in between). Each shade was visible. I can post the link for the image and you can test it on you're 360 if you think you're getting black crush.

I don't notice much and sometimes certain stuff are meant to be seen a little compared to completely seen.

Its like the standard is gamma at 2.22 I believe but you blast the gamma that is not the standard and yes you see more detail but its not correct.

This is a suggestion for people who suffer from blacks being too black like that one dude for Socom on PS3 and don't want to settle on HDMI2/PC.

My understanding is that some games aren't properly made right for example look at half life 2 on the 360 and ps3 the gamma on that game is screwed up. You have to up the brightness up a lot to look right and some games have the blacks black on purpose from the developer.


Personally when it comes to input lag I don't feel much in my custom settings that interferes with my killing. I can hardly believe people noticed and end up with a result with less kills when comparing HDMI2/PC and Game Mode since Game Mode is already low and PC mode is lower than that.

I understand custom and Game Mode for some people but PC mode vs Game Mode wow oh well.
post #490 of 663
HL2 since ep1 should be set to monitor with most TVs. I had to do this on my old CRT as well.
post #491 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomGreen321 View Post

HL2 since ep1 should be set to monitor with most TVs. I had to do this on my old CRT as well.

Like I said Orange Box Half Life 2 games were messed up in the gamma department. I did set it to monitor cause it obviously looked better but the image was way too dark so one of the few games where I had to upped the brightness tab inside the game. Thank god it has in-game brightness tab to mess with it and not touch my TVs settings.
post #492 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by id0l View Post

Hmm...I don't have any issue with Game Mode crushing blacks on my 360 (Set to Expanded/RGB - TV on Normal). I verified this with a test image that shows blacks under 16 and whites over 235 (as well as shades in between). Each shade was visible. I can post the link for the image and you can test it on you're 360 if you think you're getting black crush.

For the hell of it sure let me have it...
post #493 of 663
It has been questioned up a few times I believe, but I actually happened upon a monitor thread that may have input lag measurements for the control (Dell 2208) that Gman used. Didn't spend a lot of time going through it, but found the values for the successor(?) model (Dell 2209) which supposedly averages around 20ms.
post #494 of 663
good find Orta. that would put the newer 120hz sets about the same as last year. its not bad imo - 1 or 2 frames of lag.
post #495 of 663
guys i have the older xbox 360 and am connecting it via component. this is coupled to game mode and its fine. The game mode is somewhat bright but i think it's perfect as i'm not really looking for the best picture brightness/contrast given that i'm focusing on seing everything on the screen and playing well...

also, there is barely no lag at all, and i mean, i used to play halo 2 semi-professionally and i play halo 3 occasionally, and any sort of lag would be quite apparent to me. i think i might venture into trying a vga connection, but i don't really believe it would make much of a difference, as the component is perfectly fine.

my 2 cents
post #496 of 663
Going along with that monitor thread, OneDeadlyBum has found a 650 CRT Clone test. The user's conjecture seems to conflict with Gman's non-native VGA findings though, which (IMO) would make it safe to assume ~16-20ms should probably be added to all this threads values.
post #497 of 663
I'm thinking of buying a 750 to replace my 52w4100 that had terrible clouding. I had two of them and the second one was even worse than the first. On game mode the Sony had pretty close to Zero lag on my 360. I was wondering if anybody knows if the 750 suffers from lag as does the 650. If I'm not mistaken the 750 does use a 16 bit processor instead of the 12 bit. Anybody used both to compare? Its hard to find info on the 750 about this.
post #498 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

Going along with that monitor thread, OneDeadlyBum has found a 650 CRT Clone test. His conjecture seems to conflict with Gman's non-native VGA findings though, which (IMO) would make it safe to assume ~16-20ms should be added to all this threads values.

Couple of things in there that to point out it seems more and more people are finding out the *630 to have something different which causes it to have different results when it comes to input lag.*

Second until I officially see crt run in 1080p and sammy 650 in its native resolution 1080p in clone mode then i would go by those numbers. Doing it the test in non-native resolutions then using guesses on adding numbers to see where would it really be at is not good thing IMO there's too many variables to start guessing stuff.

Non-native vga findings that's interesting...

This got me curious I'll run a test on the same resolution he did since my crt monitor should do it and see if my numbers come up the same as him.

*EDIT* He has stated that the laptop was about 0ms of input lag where sometimes it would cough up 16ms but it was irrelevant and it could be caused by what popped up in his computer.

So by going by that his tests stated in vga in 1024x786 which is non-native resolution for the a650 gave out about 16ms of input lag so obviously if it was in native resolution it would be way lower.

It does conflict with Gman's non-native vga findings but i don't remember him doing specifically 1024x768 rez and second how much lag his laptop has also could be a factor.

So stating to add 20ms to all of his findings is also not a very good idea either...
post #499 of 663
Heres OneDeadlyBum observations on the difference on a630 vs a650 TVs.

"There is a fundamental difference between the A630 TV and A650 TV. It has been reported that with the correct cabling and settings, the A650 can have anywhere from no lag to 2 frames of lag, which would only be detectable by the most sensitive of people. However, my own testing indicates that for some reason, despite the fact that they should have the same hardware (just different finishes on the screen) the A630 lags a LOT more than the A650 and other Samsung LCDs, and there is currently no way to defeat it, regardless of cables or configuration."
post #500 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

Heres OneDeadlyBum observations on the difference on a630 vs a650 TVs.

"There is a fundamental difference between the A630 TV and A650 TV. It has been reported that with the correct cabling and settings, the A650 can have anywhere from no lag to 2 frames of lag, which would only be detectable by the most sensitive of people. However, my own testing indicates that for some reason, despite the fact that they should have the same hardware (just different finishes on the screen) the A630 lags a LOT more than the A650 and other Samsung LCDs, and there is currently no way to defeat it, regardless of cables or configuration."

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but the CRT test was actually done by a different user with the 650. My post was indeed poorly worded and suggested it was One's tests, but I was just giving him credit for finding it. It is interesting the 630 differs. I would be more apt to side with it being firmware bug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

So stating to add 20ms to all of his findings is also not a very good idea either...

Assuming that a fairly standard and typical LCD monitor (Gman's control) has 0ms lag would be a worse idea IMO.
post #501 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but the CRT test was actually done by a different user with the 650. My post was indeed poorly worded and suggested it was One's tests, but I was just giving him credit for finding it. It is interesting the 630 differs. I would be more apt to side with it being firmware bug.

I was talking about the 630 vs 650 differences not anything to do with your post. Who knows if the 630 is really the same as the 650 except for screen.



Assuming that a fairly standard and typical LCD monitor (Gman's control) has 0ms lag would be a worse idea IMO.

True since nothing outside of a CRT monitor has 0ms of input lag to be honest but we all know that... but there are some who don't realize that even CRT HDTVs have some input lag also compared to a PC CRT monitor.
post #502 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton View Post

In order to get the benefit of no input lag on HDMI2, you have to keep the PC label set and the source can't be outputting 720p.

Crap, does this mean with my PS3 and Street Fighter 4 (which only supports up to 720p) I'll get input lag no matter what?

That makes me sad
post #503 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by keflex View Post

Crap, does this mean with my PS3 and Street Fighter 4 (which only supports up to 720p) I'll get input lag no matter what?

That makes me sad

Game Mode still works for 720p and for input lag matters its better than using nothing.
post #504 of 663
Good news, the 2009 models have pq settings available in Game Mode! I'm sure glad I returned my A650 before it was too late.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1128186
post #505 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

Good news, the 2009 models have pq settings available in Game Mode! I'm sure glad I returned my A650 before it was too late.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1128186

That's a 530 model I really doubt the picture quality is comparable to an 08 a650. Plus isn't it a 60hz TV; 120hz TVs tend to have higher input lag because of their extra processing compared to a 60hz TV.

Better question would be did the 08 530-550 had their Game Mode with adjustable settings?
post #506 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

That's a 530 model I really doubt the picture quality is comparable to an 08 a650. Plus isn't it a 60hz TV; 120hz TVs tend to have higher input lag because of their extra processing compared to a 60hz TV.

Better question would be did the 08 530-550 had their Game Mode with adjustable settings?

None of the 08 models had adjustable settings in Game Mode. I guess I would have to assume that the B650 also has the new mode.

I'm personally not concerned about lag & my post wasn't about lag, but game mode worked perfectly fine for me on the A650 with the exception that I couldn't stand the picture. Much too sharp for my tastes & the blacks from my PS3 were 100% definitely being crushed. To each their own and it's a pretty big step forward for gamers.
post #507 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

None of the 08 models had adjustable settings in Game Mode. I guess I would have to assume that the B650 also has the new mode.

I'm personally not concerned about lag & my post wasn't about lag, but game mode worked perfectly fine for me on the A650 with the exception that I couldn't stand the picture. Much too sharp for my tastes & the blacks from my PS3 were 100% definitely being crushed. To each their own and it's a pretty big step forward for gamers.

Oh that's great to hear that Samsung didn't lock Game Mode settings. It's always better to give the consumer options then locking settings on Game Mode on the 08 models wasn't a good idea since some may hate it.

Well this sucks but 09 models are about to hit many stores and now my TV is not the latest one *sigh*.
post #508 of 663
In that thread the owner also states that E.Mode has been removed from the new models & that the Game Mode is simply either off or on.

Now I'm wondering... how would one be able to tell if HDMI2 in PC Mode was still active when playing a 720p PS3 title? You could tell before by pressing the E.Mode button - but it's no longer there.

Any ideas?
post #509 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

Good news, the 2009 models have pq settings available in Game Mode! I'm sure glad I returned my A650 before it was too late.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1128186

If only we could get them to release A-series firmwares that unlock such an obvious feature.
post #510 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

If only we could get them to release A-series firmwares that unlock such an obvious feature.

Not going to happen. They have to give you a reason to buy the new model

Since it was lightly discussed in this thread, I just want you guys to know - the results I originally got while testing my A630 model TV were the result of a bug. It turns out that there is no perceivable difference in input lag between the A630 and A650 series.

You can read more about it in my new post here
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: LCD Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays › Samsung LNxxA650 Gamer's (Input Lag) Thread