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Samsung LNxxA650 Gamer's (Input Lag) Thread - Page 19

post #541 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

Yo DaverJ there has been talks about YCbCr 709 HDMI Color Space being better to use than RGB for the 360.

I've tried it out on YCbCr 709 with Standard Reference Level on both GAME MODE and custom settings and it looks better in Call of Duty 4 and the other games I've tried.

Just letting you know...

Cool, thanks. This is on the 360's dashboard, correct?

I think I have mine set to auto (?), which detects the TV via HDMI and I'm assuming switches to 709 color space for games and 601 for SD material like movies. Is this correct?

Anyway, I'll check that tonight when I get home.
post #542 of 663
Hey guys I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread but, the guy who did the majority of lag testing in this thread gmanvbva, was not using a CRT display for his control, he was using a Dell LCD monitor.

This would at least slightly make his results lower than they should be, I have tried with no success in finding someone that has tested his model LCD for input lag It is a TN panel and should be pretty fast but who knows unless someone tests it.

I just thought i should bring up the validity of the accuracy of the results in this thread due to this issue, the numbers posted for many of the inputs are too fast in comparison to what some other people have found on their samsung displays, and with this guy being the main person most of the results have been based on as far as i can tell, having a PC lcd that is fast but not CRT fast, comprimises these results in my opinion
post #543 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

Hey guys I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread but, the guy who did the majority of lag testing in this thread gmanvbva, was not using a CRT display for his control, he was using a Dell LCD monitor.

This would at least slightly make his results lower than they should be, I have tried with no success in finding someone that has tested his model LCD for input lag It is a TN panel and should be pretty fast but who knows unless someone tests it.

I just thought i should bring up the validity of the accuracy of the results in this thread due to this issue, the numbers posted for many of the inputs are too fast in comparison to what some other people have found on their samsung displays, and with this guy being the main person most of the results have been based on as far as i can tell, having a PC lcd that is fast but not CRT fast, comprimises these results in my opinion

Well your right in the sense that even if his lcd monitor is super fast its not crt <1 ms of input lag fast. The thing is one other guy did a test using a CRT monitor and hes name is Cynn I believe and ended up with about the same numbers.
post #544 of 663
yeah cynn posted his test results im my in my inpu lag thread, his were 1 frame higher than what is stated here, he also used a laptop lcd as his baseline, he did test the laptop vs a crt and found pretty much no lag. also he could not get native 1080 out of the laptop

his results therefore cannot be 100 trusted either

i want to see a crt vs a650 using a pc with a real video card anything else is not accurate enough
post #545 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

yeah cynn posted his test results im my in my inpu lag thread, his were 1 frame higher than what is stated here, he also used a laptop lcd as his baseline, he did test the laptop vs a crt and found pretty much no lag. also he could not get native 1080 out of the laptop

his results therefore cannot be 100 trusted either

i want to see a crt vs a650 using a pc with a real video card anything else is not accurate enough

I never did a followup with 1080p testing because a poster at Shoryuken did it himself and it showed my theory of 8ms VGA native to be true. I do not believe he posted pictures though so hard proof may not be there.

I think you are going to find that no matter what methods are used, you will always be chasing your tail with possible ways tests could be flawed and in reality there are thousands of things that can come up. We've seen a lot of methods and at the end of the day they all come up about the same. That's more than you can ask for when measuring milliseconds in my opinion.

I hope you find something you can believe in when it comes to this and most of all, find a display you can fully enjoy.
post #546 of 663
Oh yeah I know Cynn, In my own testing I found that results will vary by at least 1 frame (16ms) and even the camera and its settings can have an effect on your results. I had mine setup wrong and it made my scores higher (laggier)

I'm not looking for a new tv I'm quite happy with my sony, It lags slightly but it does not bother me, i'm really just trying to gather info on different brand/model's input lag and would like it to be as accurate as possible and after looking though the results in this thread it seems to me that they are flawed in a fixable way and are showing the samsung 650's to be faster than they really are for example

KVW has shown that a sony v4100 is at most only 16ms slower (1 frame behind) a samsung a750 at 1080p in HDMI with PC mode set on the sammy, unfortunately he does not have a CRT to test them with and can only compare the speed diff between them, I may have to let him use my CRT so we could find out what the lag really is on these displays

What is interesting is that sony's commonly test from anywhere 30-45ms behind a CRT and the samsung according to KVW's results should be only 15ms faster PC mode putting at 15-30 ms lag not 0-8 or 0-15

regardless anything under 45ms should be playable in my opinion, and a the very worst anything under 30ms for sensitive people

anyways rambling here
post #547 of 663
A quick question on game mode (XBOX 360) for those more in the know then I.

I replaced a defective Samsung DLP 61' with the LN52A650 and couldn't be happier. Should have got this TV to begin with. Great color 'pop' from the panel is the big drawl, minor flashlighting in a couple corners/edges with no-input signal is the only negative if you're hunting for one.

What I do notice when I go to game mode (running off HDMI2) is that the edges of the screen tend to 'wash-out' a bit, or appear lighter. It's effect is the same as off-angle viewing. It's a livable occurrence, and it's only in dark scenes. There no break in color/light uniformity in bright-regular lit scenes.

Has anyone else run into this? I'm wondering if it's a setting I have it on, or if the game-mode adjust's some setting that allow more light from the back-light to seep in/become more noticeable. When I'm watching TV or have it on movie I don't ever notice the side 'wash-out', but the second I fire up game mode the 10-15% of the screen at the left-right edges definitely 'brightens' a bit (though again, it's only noticeable with dark screens).
post #548 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingTaco View Post

What I do notice when I go to game mode (running off HDMI2) is that the edges of the screen tend to 'wash-out' a bit, or appear lighter.

I haven't noticed that on mine. Does this clear up when you hit E.mode on the remote twice to get out of game mode?

Also, have you tried your 360 in HDMI 1 or 3?
post #549 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingTaco View Post

I replaced a defective Samsung DLP 61' with the LN52A650 and couldn't be happier.

Yes, you could be... if you got the LN55B650.
post #550 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post

I haven't noticed that on mine. Does this clear up when you hit E.mode on the remote twice to get out of game mode?

Also, have you tried your 360 in HDMI 1 or 3?

If I return it to 'standard' (E-mode off) the wash-out/color edges go away. I'm not sure if it's a setting producing the visuals, or if whatever setting the TV uses in game-mode allows for more of the back-light issues (minor/moderate flashlighting on no-input screen) to be more visible.

It's a livable problem, and a great set; it's more of a slight distraction on darker screens because your eye can get drawn to the moderate 'brightness' change. In a way it looks like the 10-15% left-right edges of the screen are getting more light, but at the same time there's no effect in bright/normal lit screens.
post #551 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darvan View Post

Does anyone have any Rock Band 2 Playstation 3 version video lag numbers. using game mode on HDMI 2? I don't know if it should be in the -25 or just 25.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darvan View Post

Okay guys sorry for the late post, TV I'm using is a Samsung Ln52A750 I bought Rock Band 2 for the PS3. So I'm running the game in Game Mode on HDMI 2. Since I also have a 360 I have the label set to PC. I used Auto Calibration using the guitar I ran the test 10 times and here is what I got.

1.) 48
2.) 45
3.) 47
4.) 48
5.) 44
6.) 45
7.) 60
8.) 58
9.) 59
10.) 60

Now what I don't get is why towards the end the amount went up when doing the auto cal as you can see it was pretty much in the 40~ until until test 7. How I did the test I ran auto cal once the number came up I would back out to test again and reran it. I'm also wondering if having the TV label PC and it being in game mode is causing any issues.

I Got RB2 a few weeks ago, and finally decided to run the calibration test. I've only tried Game mode as I'm not even going to consider PC mode with the PS3 as it doesn't scale everything to 1080p.

Anyway, doing the calibration with the drums (which don't have the auto calibration like the stratocaster does) I usually got anywhere between 18-35ms, so I'm settling on 25ms. Using the Stratocaster's auto calibration feature, I got 39ms after doing it twice. I did the audio calibration myself and usually got 50-70ms (I have dolby digital checked, which is known to add more lag) and the auto calibration gave me 74ms! So it seems like the auto calibration senses more lag than my own testing. Personally, I think you should trust your own findings as you're the one playing the game.
post #552 of 663
Thread Starter 
The issue with testing the 650 vs CRT... nobody really has a 1080P CRT.

Even some of the Sony testing I saw (vs CRT) was not at 1080P. So it's accuracy could be a little off as well.

The control here was used as just that. A control, not an absolute measurement of input lag.
post #553 of 663
HDMI2/PC Mode matched up with my 360 has made input lag an issue I rarely think about. Only time it comes to mind is when I have to check if a new PS3 game supports 1080p/1080i before buying. Since my PS3 is for Blu-ray and my 360 is for gaming this doesn't come up much. Probably helps that I came up with PC Mode settings that provide a picture that I'm happy with.
post #554 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by d34dl1n3r View Post

Yes, you could be... if you got the LN55B650.

I returned my 46" A650 on Saturday with the hopes of picking up a 40" B650. Any indication of how it handles input lag over VGA/HDMI2?
post #555 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theirlaw View Post

I returned my 46" A650 on Saturday with the hopes of picking up a 40" B650. Any indication of how it handles input lag over VGA/HDMI2?

From what I have seen reported, it is likely the same (as the A650). The advantage is more picture control while using Game Mode.
post #556 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by theirlaw View Post

I returned my 46" A650 on Saturday with the hopes of picking up a 40" B650. Any indication of how it handles input lag over VGA/HDMI2?

Probably a little faster since you have control over the picture you can turn off the dynamic contrast and edge enhancement where in the a650 those are on for sure in the locked settings.

*EDIT* Wait does the b650 allow you to turn on the dynamic contrast and edge enhancement in Game Mode???
post #557 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by theirlaw View Post

I returned my 46" A650 on Saturday with the hopes of picking up a 40" B650. Any indication of how it handles input lag over VGA/HDMI2?



Question why did you downgrade 6 inches of screen space??? I hope you didn't do it because you wanted the 09 TV.

The differences in between the a and b 650 series is not even worth paying the same as a 46" a650 for a 40" b650.
post #558 of 663
Is there a way to perhaps go into the service menu and change some settings that will eliminate the various corresponding enhancements still present in GAME MODE?

Also, will the input lag be the same as those measured in the OP for the 32" model or will they be more/less?

I've got to make a decision before tomorrow whether to buy the 32" series 6 or not. The guy selling it is moving overseas tomorrow morning and he wants to know if I want it or not...decisions decisions!
post #559 of 663
input lag should be the same or very close, tbh i went from a fast PC LCD monitor to a sony 32xbr6 that in my own tests exhibits 32-45 ms input lag in most cases and have zero problems with it playing FPS games, being a long time FPS player. started at age 13 when Quake came out , now i'm 26 and play TF2 and some old school BF1942 still, This input lag does not bother me at all.

input lag can be blown out of proportion sometimes and though it is there much like internet lag as long as its not much lag you should easily be able to adapt to it fairly quickly with use
post #560 of 663
I own a PS3 and a Wii, and I had been considering the A650 (or A630), but I'm having second thoughts now after having read this thread. I understand that posters are trying to allay people's fears by saying that Game Mode virtually solves the lag problem, and I accept that -- I don't need 0 lag; 25-50ms (or whatever) would probably be bearable -- but I'm fairly concerned about the lack of picture control in Game Mode. Many people have said that turning the Energy Saving/backlight to Low or Medium fixes the overly bright image, others seem to still not care for it.

Regardless, since my PS3 will be the centerpiece of my entertainment setup (gaming, Blu-Ray/DVD movies, and even Netflix and Hulu content via PlayOn/DLNA software), it's important to me that I'll be able to have a good picture on the TV without having to change too many settings on an ongoing basis. For example, switching between Game Mode and Movie Mode might be bearable (I understand it's a relatively straightforward remote control button?), but then would I also have to re-adjust the Energy Savings/backlight settings every time too? It seems like it would get annoying to have to dig through multiple settings every time I switch between games and movies. Is this the case, or has someone found that a single batch of settings works well for all media?

Not to hijack the thread, but since the Samsung A650 Game Mode may be less-than-awesome for PS3 owners, does anyone have a recommendation for a better-performing Game Mode on an LCD TV? After reading poonage's "New Definitive HDTV Lag FAQ" over on Shoryuken, it's become apparent that there simply is no holy grail to achieve no lag on LCD TVs. I'm OK with that, so my current quest -- as a PS3 owner -- is to find a TV with a Game Mode (with bearable lag) that looks great for BOTH games and movies. Is this a pipe dream?
post #561 of 663
PS3 with it's lack of internal scaler for games makes it hard to like when played on the new TVs with their fixed rez. Only some games are 1080p capable and really Sony dropped the ball on that while Microsoft did something right with the 360 in terms of scaling anything to 1080p and also no HDMI issues like what the PS3 does sometimes with different kinds of TVs.

Second thing here is what I do I always have energy saver set to medium. So with this on standard setting (gaming setting) has backlight at 5 which is perfect. Movie mode is at backlight 3. If I ever want to run Game Mode it looks good with energy saver mode set to medium for me. I'm one of the few that loves how game mode looks (Call of Duty 4 looks awesome on it).

If I didn't use energy saver I would had backlight on standard mode at 3 with movie mode at 2 or 1 maybe. At least with energy saver I can get an in between setting from just using backlight.

Just up the backlight on other things basically and leave it at a energy saver that works well with Game Mode and there solves your problem.
post #562 of 663
Game mode is fine for me except the Contrast is fixed at 80 and the brightness at 45. With the PS3 set to "Full" in the display options this results in a slight amount of black crush. If I could alter those brightness and contrast settings to 90 and 50 respectively, I could get the full 0-255 brightness with no black crush.

There HAS TO BE A WAY to hack the firmware to un-grey out those settings when in game mode. It should literally be as easy as changing a "0" to a "1", or changing the "80" to a "90".
post #563 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus7 View Post

Game mode is fine for me except the Contrast is fixed at 80 and the brightness at 45. With the PS3 set to "Full" in the display options this results in a slight amount of black crush. If I could alter those brightness and contrast settings to 90 and 50 respectively, I could get the full 0-255 brightness with no black crush.

There HAS TO BE A WAY to hack the firmware to un-grey out those settings when in game mode. It should literally be as easy as changing a "0" to a "1", or changing the "80" to a "90".

yeah and if i could find someone to hack my sonys firmware to disable the auto dim for good i would be in heaven, oh well
post #564 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus7 View Post

Game mode is fine for me except the Contrast is fixed at 80 and the brightness at 45. With the PS3 set to "Full" in the display options this results in a slight amount of black crush. If I could alter those brightness and contrast settings to 90 and 50 respectively, I could get the full 0-255 brightness with no black crush.

There HAS TO BE A WAY to hack the firmware to un-grey out those settings when in game mode. It should literally be as easy as changing a "0" to a "1", or changing the "80" to a "90".

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

yeah and if i could find someone to hack my sonys firmware to disable the auto dim for good i would be in heaven, oh well

Yes. YES. This is exactly the issue. I keep flipping back and forth between the Samsung A650 and the Sony W4100 for precisely these reasons. It seems like they're both solid sets, but with Samsung you get crappy picture control for games, and with Sony you get crappy autodim/backlight fluctuations. A person can't win.
post #565 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtf1979 View Post

Yes. YES. This is exactly the issue. I keep flipping back and forth between the Samsung A650 and the Sony W4100 for precisely these reasons. It seems like they're both solid sets, but with Samsung you get crappy picture control for games, and with Sony you get crappy autodim/backlight fluctuations. A person can't win.

the auto dim is less of an issue in most cases IMHO

though you may want to look at the new B650's they allow most all picture controls in game mode and dont look like crap, but they are just as slow as a a650 in game mode (not HDMI2/PC mode speed ever) course no sony TV has ever been tested to be as fast as a a650 in HDMI2/PC mode either
post #566 of 663
The PS3 looks great to me in Game Mode, not dark or any black crush.

Almost every game I've played looks great at the default setting, and the few that looked dark had brightness adjustments in-game, so to me this has been a non-issue. I know some people have complained about SOCOM (I've never played it), so if that game is a priority then there might be a problem. But its rare to run across a game these days that doesn't have in-game brightness adjustments.

With that said, I do most of my gaming on the 360 and only occasionally on the PS3.
post #567 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus7 View Post

Game mode is fine for me except the Contrast is fixed at 80 and the brightness at 45. With the PS3 set to "Full" in the display options this results in a slight amount of black crush. If I could alter those brightness and contrast settings to 90 and 50 respectively, I could get the full 0-255 brightness with no black crush.

There HAS TO BE A WAY to hack the firmware to un-grey out those settings when in game mode. It should literally be as easy as changing a "0" to a "1", or changing the "80" to a "90".



You have it backwards it is set at 80 for contrast because it has dynamic contrast set on and with anything higher than 80 it will clip white details. I ran a couple of contrast tests when not in game mode and with dynamic contrast off you can set it to 100 and no problems. With it on low dynamic contrast at about 82 contrast where it was no problem. Samsung set it up to look good well IMO on my set.

Brightness is another issue didn't really get to test that but I have no problem with it and most games have in-game brightness anyways when they have issues with brightness in general.

Here's something people were talking about put the PS3 RGB at Limited instead of FULL and put the TV HDMI Black Level at LOW. Supposely the consoles don't map the 0-15 and 236-255 in the 0-255 full levels levels correctly so it crushes the details.
post #568 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

Here's something people were talking about put the PS3 RGB at Limited instead of FULL and put the TV HDMI Black Level at LOW. Supposely the consoles don't map the 0-15 and 236-255 in the 0-255 full levels levels correctly so it crushes the details.

I'll have to try that and get back to you. Thanks for the tip!
post #569 of 663
Just in case anyone else is following this thread and would like my updated $0.02:

I physically took my PS3 into Best Buy yesterday and hooked it up to the A650. In short: The non-adjustable "Game Mode" picture quality is completely unacceptable to me. It saddens me to say it (I really wanted to buy the A650), but the only possible description is "atrocious."

I don't even consider myself much of a picture stickler! (Although all of us here on avsforum are slightly crazy/anal, or why else would we be here?) I basically feel like I have relatively low high standards; I just want a decent picture. Smooth, clean high-def. If the colors don't punch or pop as much as they could, or if there's a slight off-color tint, I might be annoyed, but I can deal.

The thing about the A650 in "Game Mode" is that the contrast is beyond contrasted. It's like contrast x 1000%. Here is a simple test: Take the game Mirror's Edge - which has a fairly vibrant white and red color scheme - and simply look at any part of the game; title screen, loading screen, first level... Virtually the entire game. The contrast between the red and white is almost vomit-inducing. Very jagged, bad coloring with lots of artifacts. And there is no way to change it.

To put this in perspective, a brief story: I dragged my fiancée along to look at these TVs with me. She was completely bored, and - in general - she barely has an opinion about HD. On my 28" monitor at home, she can't really tell the difference between Blu-Ray and standard def unless she's right up close to the screen. It's pretty ridiculous :-) In short, she is NOT a high-def snob... Well, after showing her a Blu-Ray on the A650 and forcing a blasé and monotone, "Yeah yeah, it looks fine, totally great, let's get it already" out of her, I popped in Mirror's Edge, and she immediately asked "Wow, what is wrong with that? It looks terrible." This is a bad sign, folks.

I found that the horrible contrast was less obvious, but still very apparent in Metal Gear Solid 4. My current theory is that the A650 might be bearable if you play a lot of dull/gray games, but if you like vibrant/colorful games like Mirror's Edge, LittleBigPlanet, Super Stardust HD, Flower, etc etc, you are going to be sorely disappointed by the picture quality in Game Mode on the A650. I guarantee it.

And let me add that I am also not a crazy gamer who's overly concerned about lag. I thought, "Eh, I probably won't even be able to notice the lag in Movie mode." But I just wanted to check to make sure, and, man, I'm glad I did. In movie/cinema/regular mode, the lag is awful. (This is a universal rule for all sets. You just have to accept it.) "Game Mode" is your only hope, and the hardcore gamers will tell you that even Game Mode sucks. Personally, I think it's fine. In regular/cinema mode, I would press a button to jump, and it literally felt like a 1/2 second for the character to move. Conversely, the lag in "Game Mode" is barely apparent. Unless you're a hardcore online gamer, I don't think you're going to care. If the possibility of lag is making you sweaty and nauseous and you fear losing your online ranking, you are a hardcore gamer. You will need to look at VGA or HDMI2/PC (if you're not a PS3 owner, you're in luck!). Or an even crazier solution like the industrial-grade monitors mentioned on Shoryuken (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=174085). For the rest of us, Game Mode is fine. I swear.

To wrap this up: I plugged my PS3 into a different set, and Mirror's Edge and MGS4 both looked amazing. Smooth, vivid colors. Every ounce of quality you would expect. Same goes for the movies that I tried. (You can PM me if you want details, but I don't want to start a brand war in this thread. I've said my piece.)

FINALLY: I don't want to get into the general picture quality on the A650; I think that's been handled adequately elsewhere. Blu-Ray movies, standard defintion DVDs, and TV all look fantastic on it. If that's your primary use, I can completely recommend the set.
post #570 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtf1979 View Post

Just in case anyone else is following this thread and would like my updated $0.02:

I physically took my PS3 into Best Buy yesterday and hooked it up to the A650. In short: The non-adjustable "Game Mode" picture quality is completely unacceptable to me. It saddens me to say it (I really wanted to buy the A650), but the only possible description is "atrocious."

I don't even consider myself much of a picture stickler! (Although all of us here on avsforum are slightly crazy/anal, or why else would we be here?) I basically feel like I have relatively low high standards; I just want a decent picture. Smooth, clean high-def. If the colors don't punch or pop as much as they could, or if there's a slight off-color tint, I might be annoyed, but I can deal.

The thing about the A650 in "Game Mode" is that the contrast is beyond contrasted. It's like contrast x 1000%. Here is a simple test: Take the game Mirror's Edge - which has a fairly vibrant white and red color scheme - and simply look at any part of the game; title screen, loading screen, first level... Virtually the entire game. The contrast between the red and white is almost vomit-inducing. Very jagged, bad coloring with lots of artifacts. And there is no way to change it.

To put this in perspective, a brief story: I dragged my fiancée along to look at these TVs with me. She was completely bored, and - in general - she barely has an opinion about HD. On my 28" monitor at home, she can't really tell the difference between Blu-Ray and standard def unless she's right up close to the screen. It's pretty ridiculous :-) In short, she is NOT a high-def snob... Well, after showing her a Blu-Ray on the A650 and forcing a blasé and monotone, "Yeah yeah, it looks fine, totally great, let's get it already" out of her, I popped in Mirror's Edge, and she immediately asked "Wow, what is wrong with that? It looks terrible." This is a bad sign, folks.

I found that the horrible contrast was less obvious, but still very apparent in Metal Gear Solid 4. My current theory is that the A650 might be bearable if you play a lot of dull/gray games, but if you like vibrant/colorful games like Mirror's Edge, LittleBigPlanet, Super Stardust HD, Flower, etc etc, you are going to be sorely disappointed by the picture quality in Game Mode on the A650. I guarantee it.

And let me add that I am also not a crazy gamer who's overly concerned about lag. I thought, "Eh, I probably won't even be able to notice the lag in Movie mode." But I just wanted to check to make sure, and, man, I'm glad I did. In movie/cinema/regular mode, the lag is awful. (This is a universal rule for all sets. You just have to accept it.) "Game Mode" is your only hope, and the hardcore gamers will tell you that even Game Mode sucks. Personally, I think it's fine. In regular/cinema mode, I would press a button to jump, and it literally felt like a 1/2 second for the character to move. Conversely, the lag in "Game Mode" is barely apparent. Unless you're a hardcore online gamer, I don't think you're going to care. If the possibility of lag is making you sweaty and nauseous and you fear losing your online ranking, you are a hardcore gamer. You will need to look at VGA or HDMI2/PC (if you're not a PS3 owner, you're in luck!). Or an even crazier solution like the industrial-grade monitors mentioned on Shoryuken (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=174085). For the rest of us, Game Mode is fine. I swear.

To wrap this up: I plugged my PS3 into a different set, and Mirror's Edge and MGS4 both looked amazing. Smooth, vivid colors. Every ounce of quality you would expect. Same goes for the movies that I tried. (You can PM me if you want details, but I don't want to start a brand war in this thread. I've said my piece.)

FINALLY: I don't want to get into the general picture quality on the A650; I think that's been handled adequately elsewhere. Blu-Ray movies, standard defintion DVDs, and TV all look fantastic on it. If that's your primary use, I can completely recommend the set.

Did you by any chance even used the Energy Saving Mode to reduce the big CONTRAST X1000 picture quality???

I'm surprised you even looked into that considering that the contrast is set at 80 even though dynamic contrast is on. All the other TVs are set in Dynamic Mode where the contrast is at 100 with Dynamic Contrast full blast and sharpness is set way higher than Game Mode. Hell even the backlight is higher than Game Mode.

In a home with Game Mode on Energy Saving on Medium or High is good. Maybe not the preference of some people for sharpness or color tone reasons. When one complains about the super bright image its usually because of not turning Energy Saving feature to turn down the BIG BRIGHT picture. Usually when they do that they disregarded their comment and either liked it ok or didn't like it for sharpness reasons.

Just pointing out stuff...

Also Mirror's edge whites look super bright on my custom settings which has dynamic contrast off and backlight very low and it still bothersome. Even on my PC CRT 17" Monitor connected with VGA on the 360 it looked horribly bright on the whites so just saying.

But I agree its wrong of them to lock Game Mode settings for no apparent reason but to go with the stupid style of "ENTERTAINMENT MODES" that is a preset depending on the source on all 08 TVs.

It could of been improved if it had dynamic contrast off and upped the contrast at 100 and sharpness like at 30 for a happy medium if going by locked settings but oh well.

*EDIT* Personally who the hell plays with Game Mode when not playing an online game??? Really the lag is not stupid bad when in Movie Mode or Standard Mode for offline games where you will be able to play against cpu characters like in Devil May Cry 4 or something.

Games that are online luckily look pretty good on Game Mode like Call of Duty 4, Street Fighter IMO. The only offline game I can think of for lag to interfere is Rock Band or Guitar Hero and those games don't need nice quality settings and Game Mode suffice for it plus it has a lag calibrator too.

Just throwing my .02
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