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SE WI Sub shootout.... - Page 11

post #301 of 414
Thread Starter 
Well, heres a fun combination....




Nuance came over last night and helped me move things around (Thanks bro). I was finally able to get all 3 Mal-X's up and running in my great room... quick EQ and tested things out, my vote - really sounds fantastic, tight and clean..... not quite the pressure I get in that small room with the F112, but its finally darn close. Then we brought JJ's passive sub up to the small room to do a little A/B. I'll let him post his thoughts on that... I'm still here evaluating, not os tight as the JL, but pretty close. Obviously its a different design and has some fantastic output. You got a real winner here John.. nice to have a little extra time with it... Running the 2 together is just stupid fun....
post #302 of 414
What kind of power does John's AV15X setup need?
post #303 of 414
Thread Starter 
I'm running that passive box off a QSC 2502, about 1/2 throttle or a little less, its a very efficient motor, and let me tell ya its gets freakin loud, remaining very clean...
I would say a good healthy 1500w... It certainly doesn't need all that power to be sure, just nice to have a bit of reserve IMO.
post #304 of 414
Patrick,

Do you still have that ported Rhythmik there? If you do that'd be a fun comparo with it and the AV15X. Hell man, you've got enough stuff for your own shoot-out without even involving anyone else.

BTW I thought your S4's on the Icepower amplifier sounded pretty darn good. I caught myself listening to those instead of whatever sub was playing a couple of times.
post #305 of 414
patrick, I haven't gotten a chance to really do some massive power testing on these yet. If you get a chance i think you should really plug the AV15X into the wall outlet. 2400W+ at 60hz will be quite loud. Make sure you have a 20A breaker though or you'll trip it quite easily. A power strip with 20A breaker would be the easiest way to turn it on/off instead of plugging it directly in. I give you permission to find the limits.

John
post #306 of 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

patrick, I haven't gotten a chance to really do some massive power testing on these yet. If you get a chance i think you should really plug the AV15X into the wall outlet. 2400W+ at 60hz will be quite loud. Make sure you have a 20A breaker though or you'll trip it quite easily. A power strip with 20A breaker would be the easiest way to turn it on/off instead of plugging it directly in. I give you permission to find the limits.

John

I thought you were kidding when you told us we could do this as you were leaving the GTG!
post #307 of 414
Wow, you've been given the blessing, Patrick. FUN!

Depending on what your results are, Patrick, I'll be buying a couple AV15H woofers. Let me know how loud they go and how much power they can handle. I'll be replacing a TC2000 15" woofer because the AV15H's are easier to drive, so the BP2500 will run both of them. I know you have the "X" woofer, but I'll want the lower tuning of the "H." Your results will at least give me an idea of what to expect.

Enjoy!

As to the sound of the dual passive, I was able to compare it directly to the Fathom last night at Pat's. The Fathom sounded tighter and cleaner at times, but then JJ's sounded cleaner at other times. It depended on the material. The passive sub and the sealed certainly have a different sound, with the passive sounding like a ported sometimes, and others like a sealed. It was actually pretty cool to hear a subwoofer that could do "both" depending on the material. I'd love to hear JJ's woofer in a sealed enclosure before I buy, but oh well. In short, I was VERY impressed with both the JL and the dual passive. At times the dual passive had more output, but the JL remained tighter and cleaner, as it should being sealed. I'd be happy with either in my home.
post #308 of 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

patrick, I haven't gotten a chance to really do some massive power testing on these yet. If you get a chance i think you should really plug the AV15X into the wall outlet. 2400W+ at 60hz will be quite loud. Make sure you have a 20A breaker though or you'll trip it quite easily. A power strip with 20A breaker would be the easiest way to turn it on/off instead of plugging it directly in. I give you permission to find the limits.

John

You are my kinda guy John.
post #309 of 414
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Patrick,

Do you still have that ported Rhythmik there? If you do that'd be a fun comparo with it and the AV15X. Hell man, you've got enough stuff for your own shoot-out without even involving anyone else.

BTW I thought your S4's on the Icepower amplifier sounded pretty darn good. I caught myself listening to those instead of whatever sub was playing a couple of times.

I do, just waiting for Brian to get back to me on the pickup.... I put all my equipment back together and that sub is still in the basement, I'd need help moving it around, but I really would like to A/B/C against the other 2 in that room....

Thanks - I really love those S4's.... Man can they take the power, though the S4 v1's can be a bit bright, they certainly benefit from some room treatment. Anyone that says that the IcePower amps suffer from some sort of upper end rolloff hasn't spend any time with these amps, I have never experienced anything like that. If you are even consdering something like the Sigs, I would say go for the .v2's with the Be tweeter. That is honestly one of the best speakers I have ever heard in my life.

The Be tweeter is to me the best tweeter I have ever heard to date... It is light and delicate - airy if you will, but not overwhelming or bright even in a bright room, it just floated about the room. It is easily the same as the best ribbon tweeter I have heard, but doesn't possess the restrictiveness or beaming nature of a ribbon. The midrange is truly brilliant - bringing an extremely wide soundstage, and is somewhat prevalent not recessed, strong and powerful mids are extremely important to me, the Sigs just do all of it right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

patrick, I haven't gotten a chance to really do some massive power testing on these yet. If you get a chance i think you should really plug the AV15X into the wall outlet. 2400W+ at 60hz will be quite loud. Make sure you have a 20A breaker though or you'll trip it quite easily. A power strip with 20A breaker would be the easiest way to turn it on/off instead of plugging it directly in. I give you permission to find the limits.

John

Good lord John.... I don't have a 20 amp circuit in that room, as all my equipment is down in the basement hidden out of sight...

I'll see if I can make this happen, but I'm running out of time this afternoon here...
FYI, talking on the phone with John last night, he was pretty insistant that I try to figure out a way to blow up this driver - and wanting me to tell him how I did it... Tell ya what John, I'll be happy to take it to work and throw it on a couple legs of 3 phase if you like... I promise I can melt this bastard for you if you really want... Or I can toss the arc welder on it as well... Honestly I just don't have the heart....

Well, yesterday I finally got my 3rd Mal-X, ran home after work and dropped er in that box we were running the LMS in.... Fired it up and it sounded fantastic !!!! Today I hooked up my TC2000 behind the couch, EQ's the lot of em and OH MY F^*king GOD. I now have equal to or more bass in Here then in my small room with both Johns and my F112 running... So balanced and smooth... Totally lovin it !!!!!!
post #310 of 414
John,

"I haven't gotten a chance to really do some massive power testing on these yet. If you get a chance i think you should really plug the AV15X into the wall outlet."

You're really serious about this?

How long do you think it could take 2400 W before frying the VC?
post #311 of 414
John,

Looking at the PRs on the web site I noticed the Qms is higher on the 2100 gram model. Is this just the extra wieght of the PR or is there something different about them?
post #312 of 414
At 60 hz, the impedance is about 6 ohms. 120v^2 into 6 ohms is about 2400 watts, the driver should take that for a few minutes, I am guessing 3-4 minutes full out before the coil gets REALLY hot.
post #313 of 414
Great thread! Been following silently and trying to learn as much as I can.
How do you guys think the sealed Rythmik did against the f112 and the "big boys" SQ wise? I know it can't compete in output...
post #314 of 414
I'm with Mike here. I'm thinking right around the 2.5 minute mark the magic smoke comes out.
post #315 of 414
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbeveraggi View Post

Great thread! Been following silently and trying to learn as much as I can.
How do you guys think the sealed Rythmik did against the f112 and the "big boys" SQ wise? I know it can't compete in output...


I think everyone felt that the SQ of the Rythmik makes for a viable alternative to spending the money on a F112.... its really offers a great value for a small to medium size room. Even in Brandons large room it had decent tactile response. I really like that sub in terms of SQ.
post #316 of 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

At 60 hz, the impedance is about 6 ohms. 120v^2 into 6 ohms is about 2400 watts, the driver should take that for a few minutes, I am guessing 3-4 minutes full out before the coil gets REALLY hot.

What happens is that as the coil gets hot, the DCR will go up and power will drop significantly. If all goes well it should last quite awhile. Eventually though the entire pole and top plate along with air inside the enclosure will get quite hot as well and it won't be as easy to get heat away from the coil. Most likely you'll get tired of ridiculously loud 60hz tones before that point. This is the kind of abuse some of the crazy car guys buying the woofers will put them through though.

John
post #317 of 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Yep. Everyone has said this from the beginning. Though with everything DIY being in either a 6ft (all of the 18's) or 3.5ft sealed box (all of the 15's) except for the AV15 and the ported Rhythmik, it is mostly the placement in room that is the main big variable and not the enclosures.

Sounds like you guys had a great GTG! I'd have loved to come down from Eau Claire to check out all those fine drivers, but didn't stumble across this thread until Friday night. Personally I've got a DIY sealed sub with dual 12" TC2K drivers. Would've been interesting to hear what some of these other drivers sound like.

Responding to what Ricci wrote above, from what I've read, it sounds like most of the subs were sealed, with only a couple of resonant enclosures. One thing to keep in mind is that the AV15X with the PR enclosure will have a significant advantage in that resonant enclosures don't suffer from rolloff until past the tuning point, even if not EQ'd. So given that the sealed subs in this GTG weren't EQ'd flat on the low end, it's not surprising that the PR sub was one of the better subjective performers. It'd be interesting to see how things would stack up if the sealed subs were EQ'd flat instead of being allowed to have their natural 2nd order rolloff down low. Still, it sounds like John J has got himself a winner with these new drivers.
post #318 of 414
Thread Starter 
Just a point to make, even though the passive was tuned low (only 20hz), it may have offered an advantage if we the content that was being listened to was all about the low stuff.

Most if not almost all of the content was music that stressed the upper bass areas, or rapid attack and decay content... So even if the sealed subs weren't eq'd on the low end which they could have been, which would have been a huge effort to get that all up and running for each sub. It wasn't a gtg based on "How low can ya go"
post #319 of 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

I think everyone felt that the SQ of the Rythmik makes for a viable alternative to spending the money on a F112.... its really offers a great value for a small to medium size room. Even in Brandons large room it had decent tactile response. I really like that sub in terms of SQ.

Similar SQ as the f112 for a lot less $. Exactly what I'm looking for!
Should I need more output, I can always add a second one later .
post #320 of 414
Ah, in that case it sounds like more of an apples to apples comparison.

It was interesting to see all the good reviews of these drivers. I thought the TC Sounds drivers I've got were quite excellent but it sounds like they're not great in the upper bass area. That's a bit surprising to me, considering a while back I had an upper bass epiphany of sorts courtesy of my dual TC2K sub. At the time I was running my sub with the EP2500's 30hz high pass filter engaged. Star Wars TPM was in the DVD player, queued to the pod race scene. I had paused the movie while my attention was diverted. Somehow, during the pause, the volume got cranked nastily high without my knowing it. The scene was sitting right at the point where the power coupling on one of the pods gave out and the pod blew apart. Needless to say, when I resumed play, the chest thump I got from the pod explosion was like nothing I've ever felt before. Incredibly cool! I would never have considered cranking my system that high on purpose, but it sure was an eye-opener, I can tell you! I have no idea how many dBs my sub hit in that moment, but it was very high. Thank God I had the HP filter on or my sub probably would've been wrecked.

I like to crank things up loud from time to time, and I regularly shake the frame of my house, but I've never felt a hit like that before. Not even close. I'm guessing most of the sonic energy was around 40-70hz. Ever since then, I've been planning a sub for my eventual home theater which has silly amounts of headroom in the upper bass (and lower too, for that matter!). I'm not sure what design I'll use to achieve it, but I want to feel that thump again. Knowing there are better upper bass drivers than my TC2Ks gets my juices flowing...
post #321 of 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

I do, just waiting for Brian to get back to me on the pickup.....

I will arrange that after I hear back from Dave. Next stop for that ported sub is CA. I know the packaging box can only survive one more shipping. Thanks for handling that sub for me.
post #322 of 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

I think everyone felt that the SQ of the Rythmik makes for a viable alternative to spending the money on a F112.... its really offers a great value for a small to medium size room. Even in Brandons large room it had decent tactile response. I really like that sub in terms of SQ.

Of course, I've been a fan of the Rythmik subs for a long time, so I'll state my bias up front. But if you're comparing to the F112, I don't think it's necessarily fair to include a room size caveat on the Rythmik. When comparing dollar for dollar, you can have multiple Rythmiks for the cost of a single JL, which would then tip the output advantage to the Rythmiks. That also brings the possibility to do multiple placements to smooth out room response, and you also have to consider that dividing the output between multiple subs reduces distortion. The cost advantage is even greater when you consider that Rythmik as a DIY option (and much easier that most DIY, considering how forgiving a sealed servo design is of variances in box size, and how much support Brian provides). I did a quad-Rythmik build (my build page is way out of date) for a lot less than what a single F112 would have cost.

Obviously, multiple subs will consume more space... the F112 produces a lot of output in a small package. But if you have the room, I'd easily take multiple subs of less output over a single sub of more output, assuming similar sound quality.
post #323 of 414
Great thread Warp. I wish I could attend an event like this, I'm sure fun was had by all.
It's fun for me to see all the pictures and get everyone's impressions of these great subs.
I like to see people setting up their home theatres in their living room as you have. That's where I have mine and no matter where I move that's where I think I always will have mine. I prefer it to a dedicated theatre all the way down in the bassment. I just enjoy it more when I can look at it every day just walking thru.

I have a question for anyone with a subwoofer in a room with windows. What do you do about the rattling made by your windows? Whenever I am playing low bass they make loud rattling noises, I think it is from the springs inside the frame that assist with keeping the window up when it has gravity working against it.

Also, when are we going to get links for the videos?
post #324 of 414
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelinas View Post

Great thread Warp. I wish I could attend an event like this, I'm sure fun was had by all.
It's fun for me to see all the pictures and get everyone's impressions of these great subs.
I like to see people setting up their home theatres in their living room as you have. That's where I have mine and no matter where I move that's where I think I always will have mine. I prefer it to a dedicated theatre all the way down in the bassment. I just enjoy it more when I can look at it every day just walking thru.

I have a question for anyone with a subwoofer in a room with windows. What do you do about the rattling made by your windows? Whenever I am playing low bass they make loud rattling noises, I think it is from the springs inside the frame that assist with keeping the window up when it has gravity working against it.

Also, when are we going to get links for the videos?

I will have to agree with you on the living room for my HT, I don't like doing stairs, which is one of the reasons I fell for this house so hard, its beautiful inside, but mainly everything for me is on the 1st floor, so when Jr. is gone, I will likely never have to use the upstairs except for company, and nobody likes me anyways, so that is a rarity

I don't have any window issues in that house, so I can't really comment on that, but I'll have to start working more on securing some of the glass and bottles around the first floor with the newly increased bass output I have now.
post #325 of 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Just a point to make, even though the passive was tuned low (only 20hz), it may have offered an advantage if we the content that was being listened to was all about the low stuff.

Most if not almost all of the content was music that stressed the upper bass areas, or rapid attack and decay content... So even if the sealed subs weren't eq'd on the low end which they could have been, which would have been a huge effort to get that all up and running for each sub. It wasn't a gtg based on "How low can ya go"

+1.

We mostly listened to music and tracks that were 32hz and up material, if even that low, so any natural extension advantage offered by the 2 resonant systems was largely acedemic. There was the occasional foray into retarded bass test tracks like Jurrassic Lunch or other material with super low content. Most of the subs never saw that material though. Mainly just mine now that I think about it (HEY! Wait a minute here) and I didn't even have control of the volume or track selection for the most part .
post #326 of 414
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

+1.

We mostly listened to music and tracks that were 32hz and up material, if even that low, so any natural extension advantage offered by the 2 resonant systems was largely acedemic. There was the occasional foray into retarded bass test tracks like Jurrassic Lunch or other material with super low content. Most of the subs never saw that material though. Mainly just mine now that I think about it (HEY! Wait a minute here) and I didn't even have control of the volume or track selection for the most part .


Haha..... seemed to me, it didn't take you long when I started that foray for you to get your @$$ downstairs and see what all the rumbling was about....

Sorry bro.... I couldn't help myself, I needed to see how the LMS sounded and how much it could handle, let me say this... the amp wanted to give it up before the LMS did... and the SQ blasting at FULL onslaught was spot on perfect....

Kyle when do the pre-orders with a small price break start as a celebration for TC-Sounds to ramp things up again... I think our small collective has been very patient and deserve a little love.... what do you think.....
post #327 of 414
I agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Haha..... seemed to me, it didn't take you long when I started that foray for you to get your @$$ downstairs and see what all the rumbling was about....

Sorry bro.... I couldn't help myself, I needed to see how the LMS sounded and how much it could handle, let me say this... the amp wanted to give it up before the LMS did... and the SQ blasting at FULL onslaught was spot on perfect....

Kyle when do the pre-orders with a small price break start as a celebration for TC-Sounds to ramp things up again... I think our small collective has been very patient and deserve a little love.... what do you think.....
post #328 of 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

patrick, I haven't gotten a chance to really do some massive power testing on these yet. If you get a chance i think you should really plug the AV15X into the wall outlet. 2400W+ at 60hz will be quite loud. Make sure you have a 20A breaker though or you'll trip it quite easily. A power strip with 20A breaker would be the easiest way to turn it on/off instead of plugging it directly in. I give you permission to find the limits.

John

And this is the final proof that subwoofer performance and driver design have reached insanely stupid fun levels
post #329 of 414
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

patrick, I haven't gotten a chance to really do some massive power testing on these yet.

lol,

as of last check, you haven't done power testing on anything you make yet (or rather haven't posted any results anywhere).



i'm so optimistic with repect to your drivers, but without measurements...how can we know?
post #330 of 414
I tried to get some data with REW before I left Patrick's but we ran through things really quickly and didn't do as much as accurately as I would've liked. Here is what I have that is semi worth posting. Everything has a 100hz 24db octave x-over engaged. In a good measurement these would look a lot smoother than they do. Oh well. Next time.


TC3K close




TC2K close


MAL X close



Rythmik 15 ported close



AV15X close





F112 close ( ARO is engaged cutting at 42hz looks like)

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