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Sim2 Lumis 3 Chip DLP little Test - Page 5

post #121 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty View Post

I like the image of the woman's face as projected by the RS20. I like the color and the detail.

Why are the other images of the rs20 so uneven? The upper left half triangle of the screen is blue, the bottom right half triangle is nice and black.
This is readily apparent in the two Pioneer logo shots and the overexposed shot of the woman's face.

My understanding is that the smaller image of the RS20 with the face is 120 cm wide which is about 4 feet wide and therefore it retains the grip on the image while the Lumis has an ND2 filter in front of it with the lamp on min.

As the images get larger, the Lumis maintains its grip on the image because it has the chassis to sustain the size but the RS20 will eventually find it hard to power up larger screens because it is not built for them.

This doesn't take anything away from either projector. Both are marvellous machines in their own price bracket and category. They provide stiff competition to other competing PJs lower and higher than their price to a certain extent.
post #122 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty View Post

I like the image of the woman's face as projected by the RS20. I like the color and the detail.

Why are the other images of the rs20 so uneven? The upper left half triangle of the screen is blue, the bottom right half triangle is nice and black.
This is readily apparent in the two Pioneer logo shots and the overexposed shot of the woman's face.

TT, don't get caught up looking at small detail and making any judgment. I know thats not what Wolgang intended these photos for. Unless the images are exactly matched for brightness, on will look overexposed and loose detail. There are also possible gamma differences as well as many other things

The Rennaisance photos I posted have been complimented, but you cant believe how much detail is actually missing due to the camera. The illuminated billboard on one actually has writing on it and is partially transparent. None of that survives the camera.
post #123 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

and yes its also strange to me how they do it when my measurment instrument tell me that the rs 20 have the better on off cr. but may some tricks that ti sim2 did and may the mutch better ansi cr.
or whatever is responisble.

The easy way to resolve this is simply to both measure and photograph a 0 IRE screen with each projector.

If the pictures don't reflect what is measured than something is obviously askew.

I have not seen the lumis but I own an RS20 and will go on record as saying that that those pictures with the Pioneer logo do not come close to showing what I typically see in those kinds of scenes.
post #124 of 371
I was also puzzled by the Lumis and RS-20 black field with Pioneer logo comparison and I have a possible explanation. The problem with the RS-20 is that the off state seems to be very non-uniform. Wolfgang, can you confirm this?

If the off state is very non-uniform, you can't just measure the center for sequential CR. You should measure various points and get an average. Maybe the "average" sequential CR of the RS-20 is much lower when you do this.

The off state non-uniformity of LCOS projectors is caused mostly by the panels. In comparison, the off state uniformity of DLP projectors is very good, because it's almost all diffuse light from reflections. You can measure the center only and get a meaningful result.

The above is just a theory and needs to be confirmed by measurement.
post #125 of 371
hello
does the LUMIS fit the SCHNEIDER CINEDIGITAR lens ?
or vignetting ?
the C3X 1080 with ISCO II is slightly vignetting.

ps: stratospheric on off is an academic discussion imho once you're in scope config with black room. + ANSI gives so much more pop in most scenes, the 3D depth. way above CRT which never had good ANSI CR.
if one is in a non scope configuration, on off at high levels is required.

my very very humble opinion.
... and FTL rules !! how could people live with 6-8FTL on so many machines in the past and still now !
post #126 of 371
Wolfgang, thanks for your report I really appreciate. The screen shots do show a difference, and I am sure if I were there in person it would even be more profound.
I saw the Sim2 Lumis at CES 2009 and its just outstanding. Thanks Greg
post #127 of 371
I see two possible explanations for the better black levels in the Lumis vs the RS20.

1. Sim2 is conservative with their numbers, and the actual on/off is much higher, but difficult to measure in the ordinary way, due to the unique way the bulb modulates.

2. Not one of those pictures is with a completely black screen. Not only does ANSI favor a scene with even a logo showing, but the eye, and the camera respond to a brighter point within a dark field, by perceiving the surrounding black area as blacker than the projector with a not so bright logo.
post #128 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

I was also puzzled by the Lumis and RS-20 black field with Pioneer logo comparison and I have a possible explanation. The problem with the RS-20 is that the off state seems to be very non-uniform. Wolfgang, can you confirm this?

There is definitely unit-to-unit variation in black field uniformity but I have never even seen even an RS1 that has the amount of variation as that depicted in that photograph.
post #129 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I have not seen the lumis but I own an RS20 and will go on record as saying that that those pictures with the Pioneer logo do not come close to showing what I typically see in those kinds of scenes.

Nor does the shot truly reflect the Lumis image

That isn't the point of the images at all. With 2 black images, one will always overexpose if the other is darker.

I have tried them back to back, as Wolfgang did. The difference was plain to see.
post #130 of 371
Pteitenen(sp)? noticed an non uniformity effect similar to what we see here in the rs20 pics when he posted his rs20 screenshots in the huge rs20 owner's thread.

He realized that the non-uniformity in his rs20 screenshots was due to using too much horizontal lens shift.

The non-uniformity went away when he centered the rs20 image in the screen.

I wonder if the same thing is going on here?
post #131 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

There is definitely unit-to-unit variation in black field uniformity but I have never even seen even an RS1 that has the amount of variation as that depicted in that photograph.

Its due to the exposure. Because the Lumis in Wolgangs image is far darker its lengthening the exposure, making the light areas on the RS20 look worse than real life.

I have seen, and posted, worse on an RS1, RS2 and the RS20 I bought.

As I said before, we have no one here lying orfabricating test results etc, like we have recently seen elsewhere.

Wolfgang's word is bankable around here. The simple photo proves his observations, and those of others, to be factual.

Time to move on guys, before this heads south.
post #132 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Nor does the shot truly reflect the Lumis image

That isn't the point of the images at all. With 2 black images, one will always overexpose if the other is darker.

I have tried them back to back, as Wolfgang did. The difference was plain to see.

If, in fact, the Lumis is overexposing the RS20 because it is that much blacker, then that fact itself is pretty amazing and I may have to open my checkbook wider and sooner than I had otherwise would have liked.
post #133 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty View Post

Pteitenen(sp)? noticed an non uniformity effect similar to what we see here in the rs20 pics when he posted his rs20 screenshots in the huge rs20 owner's thread.

He realized that the non-uniformity in his rs20 screenshots was due to using too much horizontal lens shift.

The non-uniformity went away when he centered the rs20 image in the screen.

I wonder if the same thing is going on here?

The technology involved is inherenty poor with uniformity. Black levels in corners especially can be way higher that center. This also brings the CR into question.

I tested a unit to have 42k CR, if I tested the black level in a corner it was 4 times higher. Thats a CR of 10k. I'll post shots when I get time.
post #134 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

Oh, please. Pics with cameras prove nothing at all. If you can't provide some arguments and explanations that make scientific sense I'll have to dismiss the claims in this thread as hyperbole.
And by the way, we are on topic. This thread compares the Lumis and the RS20, claims were made, and are now questioned. If people don't want to discuss their claims, why post? This is the AVS forum, not a marketing platform for brand x versus y.

I think the issue is we are comparing a projector with high native on/ off (easy and simple to measure) ,poor ANSI contrast and poor uniformity to one with good native on/ off,excellent uniformity,astronomical ANSI contrast and dynamically obtained on/off. In this case a comparison using numbers is all but useless. In this instance the proof is in the pudding. Short of seeing the projectors with a wide variety a material of our own choosing ,the work Wolfgang has done here is the best comparison we might be able to get.The images with the DB engaged, the full field uniformity and black bar visibility (a good subjective measure of haze) are extremely revealing IMO.

Art
post #135 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

As I said before, we have no one here lying orfabricating test results etc, like we have recently seen elsewhere.

Care for a link to "elsewhere"? A PM is sufficient as this is kind of off-topic.

Thanks,
Gregor
post #136 of 371
Wolfgang has said that the camera was in manual mode, so exposure should have nothing to do with it. Even if it was in an auto mode, the Lumis image is not absolute black and the relative luminance will still hold.

This is all definitely on topic and there should be no comments like time to move on. If there is a problem with measurement vs visual there needs to be an explanation. There is no black magic with the Lumis DB. Its performance can be measured, including its limitations.
post #137 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

Wolfgang has said that the camera was in manual mode, so exposure should have nothing to do with it. Even if it was in an auto mode, the Lumis image is not absolute black and the relative luminance will still hold.

This is all definitely on topic and there should be no comments like time to move on. If there is a problem with measurement vs visual there needs to be an explanation. There is no black magic with the Lumis DB. Its performance can be measured, including its limitations.

Yes ,measured but then using those measurements to extrapolate to real world perfomance (using DB numbers to native) and then throwing in ANSI contrast differences of this magnitude muddies the waters unfortunately. The months long AVS contrast thread proved that and they had no where near the differences we are seeing here to deal with in that thread.

This doesn't even take into account the uniformity issues of the LCoS unit.

Art
post #138 of 371
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

The easy way to resolve this is simply to both measure and photograph a 0 IRE screen with each projector.

If the pictures don't reflect what is measured than something is obviously askew.

I have not seen the lumis but I own an RS20 and will go on record as saying that that those pictures with the Pioneer logo do not come close to showing what I typically see in those kinds of scenes.

as i post already its overexposed to show the differneces.
post #139 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

This is all definitely on topic and there should be no comments like time to move on.

The comment wasn't, and isn't aimed at people like yourself.

We have seen this develop many times, and its already happened in a Lumis thread....The same people, with a common interest, start sniffing around a ruin a thread.

Thats why certain people, who provide exceptional information, end up driven away.
post #140 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Yes ,measured but then using those measurements to extrapolate to real world perfomance (using DB numbers to native) and then throwing in ANSI contrast differences of this magnitude muddies the waters unfortunately.

This is completely true.

That is why I suggested just doing the same thing with a 0 IRE pattern on both screens. There is no room for interpreting what is seen with that. The numbers should correspond witrh the pictures. If they don't something is wrong. I don't think that throwing that small Pioneer logo on the image should change much, but this approach just takes it off the table.
post #141 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Yes ,measured but then using those measurements to extrapolate to real world perfomance (using DB numbers to native) and then throwing in ANSI contrast differences of this magnitude muddies the waters unfortunately. The months long AVS contrast thread proved that and they had no where near the differences we are seeing here to deal with in that thread.

This doesn't even take into account the uniformity issues of the LCoS unit.

Art

I was talking about only the black field with Pioneer logo image. That one is easy to uderstand in terms of the different measurements of contrast. The non-uniformity of the RS-20 is probably the explanation for what we are seeing.
post #142 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post

If there is a problem with measurement vs visual there needs to be an explanation. There is no black magic with the Lumis DB. Its performance can be measured, including its limitations.

No disagreement here. No one suggested otherwise. Theres no black magic, and there certainly are issues and limitations with this machine.

All PJs are a compromise. I happen to think that, outside of some basic numbers to ensure overall fundamental suitability of a machine, its the eyes that matter.

I compared the Lumis to a number of units, from less expensive units like the RS20 ,to DCI units costing far more than the Lumis.

I trust my eyes. My findings and observations are not unique.

On a more general point...I really don't see the big issue here at all. The Lumis will get its ass handed to it soon enough anyway, as have other great PJs. Thats just how it is.
post #143 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post


That is why I suggested just doing the same thing with a 0 IRE pattern on both screens. There is no room for interpreting what is seen with that. The numbers should correspond witrh the pictures.


I disagree with that. The pioneer logo on a black background would be very very indicative of things like planets ,space ships, stars etc which is one place we have needed work with digital projection systems. This demonstrates how the DB and high ANSI interact visually IMO.

Art
post #144 of 371
Wolfgang:

You performed a wonderfully in depth review of the Lumis, it is greatly appreciated

Lon
post #145 of 371
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I disagree with that. The pioneer logo on a black background would be very very indicative of things like planets ,space ship, stars etc which one place we have needed work. This demonstrates how the DB and high ANSI interact visually IMO.

Art


the background from the pioneer logo is 0 ire
i did use a full frame test patern with 0 ire and the result is the same
but as you not can see anything with this picture at the left side
i think it was better to use "this picture".

i did this to prove that the lumis is on.
post #146 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I disagree with that. The pioneer logo on a black background would be very very indicative of things like planets ,space ship, stars etc which one place we have needed work. This demonstrates how the DB and high ANSI interact visually IMO.

Art

This is true. People were questioning whether the pictures made sense compared with what the numbers indicated the results might be. If Wolfgang did the same thing with a 0 IRE screen we could at least rule out some other kind of factor.

Personally, I am very surprised at those pictures but if that is what is seen then that is what is seen.
post #147 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer View Post

the background from the pioneer logo is 0 ire
i did use a full frame test patern with 0 ire and the result is the same
but as you not can see anything with this picture at the left side
i think it was better to use "this picture".

i did this to prove that the lumis is on.

Wow !!

Art
post #148 of 371
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Wolfgang:

You performed a wonderfully in depth review of the Lumis, it is greatly appreciated

Lon


thank you lon and all the others that like my work
and told me already.

i will soon see the unit you have and if i not report about it here
i pm you what i think found and measured.

i press my fingers that this unit can do black almost as good as
the lumis because i am sure that some other things the hd6km
can do better than the lumis.
i just say optic ils lens system and may also the filtered details.

oh i forgeth the light output

lets see.....
post #149 of 371
Definitely some interesting photos on the previous page, one thing that sticks most is the poor uniformity of the RS20 captured in the photos and because of this thought it may be beneficial to switch the photos around placing the RS20 on the left and the Lumis on the right. Though this new representation does not eliminate the poor uniformithy of the RS20 I think it slightly changes the perceived black level differences noted between the two projectors portrayed in the original photo.

Not doing this to stir the pot, just thought this added perspective may add additional perspective.
LL
post #150 of 371
Thanks for taking the time to do these tests Wolfgang, it really is some really nice information to have.

As CM has stated ad-nauseam on/off contrast is just a single metric that by itself can't be used to determine the capabilities of a system. So many people here on AVS use on/off contrast as the "holy grail" of the advancement of projector technology, but as a metric by itself means very little.

Case in point is the RS line from JVC. Huge on/off contrast numbers but those numbers break down very quickly after getting actual images onto the screen. What we really need is a contrast graph of how the contrast changes through each APL percentage.

Somebody did a graph on an RS1 and it showed the 15,000:1 on/off was only good up to a 2% APL after that it got progressively worse than a DLP projector it was compared against. This is clearly visible in the photos from Wofgang that shows the much brighter black bars on the JVC vs the Sim2, and thus are hardly a surprise to me. The deep black floor of the RS line quickly goes away as the APL rises.

Such a contrast graph would also serve to dispel any myths of outrageous contrast claims of future LED based projectors that could turn off the LEDs on a 0 IRE image. I think contrast graphs will give people a lot better idea of what the actual contrast capabilities of a projector are rather than just a quick glimpse at certain points that manufacturers can tweak to pacify the crowds.

It does baffle me, however, how a full 0 IRE image on the Lumis can be visibly darker than that of the RS20, when the 100 IRE image has been normalized between the two, when the JVC has a 2:1 on/off contrast advantage. However, this could be explained by CM's measurements that the corners of the RS20 on a 0 IRE image are 4x the brightness of the center, which means the RS20 can vary from 40k:1 at the center to 10k:1 at the edges, while the Lumis is 18k:1 over the entire image. The overexposure on the camera would tend to exacerbate the corners and overshadow the possibly darker center.
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