The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread... - Page 103

That's my point. They don't talk about it, they do it! And as for an "exact date"
what happened to March 30th for the DTS-HD/MA firmware update. I don't see Chris coming on this thread and saying well it will be one more week. Just as I didn't see him doing that in the 05/51 thread.

Ruined, there is a old saying "Don't p--s down my back and tell me it's raining".

How long has the DTS-HD/MA update been promised to the owners of the BDP-05/51 ?

Quantum of Solace played perfectly on my 09.

You hit the nail square on the head ss! Chris' absence and disappearance from the Pioneer threads is a bit disappointing; but not as disappointing as the missed dates and being strung along.

Sad to say but you're probably right again.

Pioneer USA is typically last to post any new product information including updates. I've wondered why & criticized this for over 2 yrs. I obviously don't know if it's the management of their website that's lame or a conscious decision, but it IS annoying.

Thanks again for the reminder that PUSA is last to the party

ss9001

Ah, that would be choir...

I sent a nice letter yesterday regarding the DTS-MA fw update for all 3 Pio models to Christina Ramirez's email address above, after all the time I put into the letter.....it was bounced back. Said the mailbox rejected it as spam.

I may try to send an email to Russ Johnston or Andy Parsons, EVP and SVP for home entertainment. In addition, Andy Parsons is also chairman of the US promotion comittee for the BDA. I figured if either are still with Pio, maybe best to start toward the top and see if it trickles down. If I find the time to compose a decent letter again, I may give it a go. If I do, hopefully it won't get bounced back.

Mike T

Just sent a message to:

Communications Coordinator Diana.Gonzales@pioneer-usa.com
Home Entertainment Christina.Ramirez@pioneer-usa.com
Car Audio/Video Jaed.Arzadon@pioneer-usa.com
Navigation Jaed.Arzadon@pioneer-usa.com
Business Products Christina.Ramirez@pioneer-usa.com
Pro DJ Jaed.Arzadon@pioneer-usa.com


...also included Chris Walker's name to the email in hopes that it will reach him. Hasn't bounced back. All I want is a yes or no or an ETA. If it's a no, I want to stop visiting this thread 3 times a day hoping for something that may not happen.

So basically you'd rather be kept completely in the dark than given an estimate. (even if the estimate is off?)

In that case, your best bet is to continue buying from a company like Panasonic that has zero participation in this forum. That way, you are not disappointed when the estimate is not met. Also, with no expectations, you can't be disappointed. Myself, I can understand the delays due to the complexities of building a Blu-ray engine and also the stunning feat that is DTS-MA decoding (it really is amazing that it actually works at all in any player!)

Or here, how about this. Just pretend this came from Pioneer -
"The date the DTS-MA firmware will come is: "

My email took about 20-30 minutes to bounce back from Ms. Ramirez's mailbox. Hopefully, yours will get through.

Mike T

Listen man, I'd like to give Pioneer some slack here, but seriously, this is not a first gen Blu-ray player. This is a 2009 dedicated $2200 Profile 2.0 Blu-ray player. The PS3 (a gaming console) got the the DTS-HD MA firmware update a loooong time ago for God's sake. And this is a $399 gaming console. There really is no excuse for this delay. Quite frankly, there really is no excuse for not having a full featured player at launch from any company now, let alone a company selling a high end player.

For me, if it comes, it comes. I'm bitstreaming to my SC-07 so I already have DTS-HD MA. The only thing this delay does is keep me from trying out the analog connections. But I'm pretty damn happy as it is. I really love this player.

Glad someone was paying attention

I didn't want to be pissy.... A minor spelling/grammatical error compared to many committed around here!

Ruined, my friend do you take me for a fool.
Of course I would rather not have any factory rep come on AVS if it meant I would already have DTS-HD decoding. Like my Panasonic BD-55, it has DTS-HD decoding from the start.

And when has CW ever been right about a firmware update for the BD-05/51, and now the BDP-09. Or you for that matter?
Maybe you like to get strung along and bs, but not me.

I want results not bs.

btw, For the record, I do really like my BDP-09. I just don't want to have a repeat of the BD-05/51.
I want and need the DTS-HD analog decoding. As Pioneer knows the analog outs provide a better audio if you are using a high end analog audio system to go along with this high end BD player.

But, did you not own an 05/51 and experience delays with firmware estimations with that player as well? This player is made by the same company and uses the same SoC for decoding codecs and main functions including BD-J, etc... Same basic software engine, as the 05/51, etc. It is essentially a 51/05 with a different BDROM drive and more expensive A/V addon boards/chips to enhance overall output quality & features. What exactly did you expect, that all of a sudden all deadlines would be met perfectly with what is essentially the same "core" machine as far as firmware is concerned? Note that I warned you of this shortly after you decided you might be interested.

Also, if satisfied with the BD55 then why did you not just keep that player? Obviously there is more to a player than DTS-MA decoding and having DTS-MA decoding out of the box. Regarding past firmware updates, Chris has been relatively on target for virtually all of them. But in not all cases were they able to be publically released on time due to last minute bugs found; unfortunately that is something that the average user would not know about. Also in some cases the Pioneer customer support department or website would not have the firmware ready for delivery to the consumer when it was available. So in terms of Chris being accurate, in most cases he has been. I can only think of one firmware version that was severely delayed and that was due to a major QA problem found by the USA office that could have jeopardized people's players if they released it, thus they skipped that version and moved to the next one.

Also, if you historically look at other companies that have implemented DTS-MA themselves, it has generally taken 10mos-1.5 years depending on the company. For instance, you mention the BD55 - it came 10 months after Panasonic's first in-house player (BD30). For the PS3 the update came in 1.5 years. Other companies like Sony and Denon still haven't released a standalone in-house player yet. Oppo has an in-house player w/ DTS-MA but they still haven't publically released their Blu-ray player at all. The 05/51 was Pioneer's first in-house player, so the timeline for DTS-MA is not out of the ordinary; the only difference is that in Panasonic's case you had to buy a new player if you bought a BD30 to get DTS-MA, while 05/51 owners will get a free fimrware upgrade enabling it instead. Of course, thats only if you want to look at the situation in a positive light, not everyone is a glass-half-full type of person

I realize this player is a $2000 machine but that is why you are getting the firmware before 51/05 users; has nothing to do with hardware, however since you paid top dollar for this machine you get the firmware first. It may not be exactly the date Chris estimated, but historically Pioneer USA has been slow to deliver the firmware to consumers despite it being available - so who knows what the real deal is yet. Pioneer phone CSR surely doesn't, if there is one thing I know it is that in every single case in the past they had no clue WTF was going on until at least 5 days after the firmware was available, sometimes even as long as 1.5 weeks. Too early to say there has been a real delay with the 09FD DTS-MA firmware - it may still be in the limbo that every Pioneer firmware seems to travel through 5-10 days between availability & release.

Ruined my friend. Yes I do own a BD-51, but I am here to tell you its not the same player as the BDP-09 is. So if you insist on comparing these two BD players, I would suggest you buy a BDP-09 and then tell me they are very similar in PQ and AQ. And also the fact that the BDP-09 owners are not having problems playing there source disc as the BD05/51 owners have and still are.

You can make all the excuses you want for the info that CW feeds us, but please link what he said about when a update was to be the release date.

Anyway why are we having this discussion, don't you think CW should have posted that there was going to be a delay. CW is very quick on posting good news but not the bad. We are adults and we understand stuff goes wrong, please let CW defend his position on the delays. I for one would respect that much more than having you defend Pioneer.

Chris Walker knows more about the design of these players than either of us and he already confirmed the 51/05/09/120/320/23 all use the same core SoC a long time ago. Which means same basic software, same BD-J engine, same SoC, same play, same rewind, etc.

I did not say they are similar in PQ/AQ, in fact, if you read my last post I specifically stated that PQ/AQ is the primary thing that seperates them through additional/different A/V chips/boards. But that does not make them at the core different players. The Pioneer 09FD is to the 05/51 what the Toshiba HD-XA2 was to the Toshiba HD-A20; same core player, different A/V chips to seperate them. Also, a BD-R was used on the 09FD instead of the BDROM found in the 51FD since BD-R drives have more strict tolerances in the hardware and hence might do a better job with dirty/damaged BDs; some of the drives with so-so lasers that got a lot of read errors on the 51/05 wouldn't pass muster as a BD-R drive. Again, direct feedback we gave on the 51FD/05FD that Chris was able to get implemented in the 09FD. I know for a fact Chris watches that #7 post. Again, what other manufs participate in this public forum like that?

Also, recently there have been no 05/51 issues aside from a comparatively small batch of recent players made in Malaysia that appear to have set off something in the BD+ security engine; probably a hardware revision that Pio did not write specific FW for or possibly a defective run - either way, it is not something affecting users like myself or any who bought in 2008 or early 2009 with made in Japan units and is probably something that can be addressed in the next FW revision. It is a big problem though since most Fox/MGM releases use BD+, so Pioneer better get a handle on what they want to do with those Malaysian players. Basically most of those Malaysian players can't play any BD+ titles at all. Thankfully, they are in the minority of players people receive.


??

I'm not sure what that means, but Chris Walker is not master of the universe, or even master of Pioneer. He is a contact at AVSFORUM that gives direct feedback to the people writing the firmware, he also holds a relatively high position at Pio. Most bugs found on the 05/51 SoC - which is the same as the 09 SoC - were stamped out by 05/51 users, so now people buying the 09FD which uses the same SoC get a stable player. 09FD owners can now enjoy their player without the mess that was v1.0 on the 05/51 despite the SoC being the same chip. I would give you an example to try that causes problems on the 05/51 and the 09, but since there are really no easy glitches left on the 05/51, thats not so easy to do - not to mention it looks like they've advanced the BD-J/core engine to x.34 on the 09 while the 51 is still on x.25a. The 09FD is definitely the priority now due to its pricetag and the expectations that carries.

Also, while Chris does give feedback to those firmware programmers he cannot jump in and write code himself. It also is a complex process due to land and language barriers, if you catch my drift. I'm sure he wants it to happen as much as us, he is very passionate about the players.


So, you think Chris should come on and say, "hey we found a bug, it was delayed a week." Then a week goes by and another bug is found. Now what? "Well guys, another delay." Oops, fixing that bug caused a DIFFERENT bug. Next week: "We fixed the first two bugs, but created a third." Yeah, that would get old fast, he would be crucified as would Pioneer, and the phone CSRs would get endless phone calls every week with people looking for firmware.

Chris now either has the option of operating the way he does, or simply not saying anything at all like most companies. After the issue with 1.07 release being pulled on the 05/51 and resulting calamity, his participation was forced to move towards the latter. He used to participate more than he does, but by giving users dates you set expectations. If you can't meet those expectations, they get pissed. If you set another date a short time ahead and can't meet that either, they get more pissed. So then the only other option if things are behind is to give no dates & only return when he has the finished product in his hand, and things will go there if people continue to give him a hard time (if they haven't already).

No other company gives dates, lets give some slack to the one that doesn't keep us entirely in the dark. If you don't, he is just going to leave entirely and then we will be in the Panasonic/Sony/etc boat. And you will have the phone CSRs (who dont know WTF is going on, seriously) telling you "in the summer" so you don't call them back the next day/week.

This is pointless. I have owned my BD-51 for over 6mos and my BDP-09 for 3mos, and still nothing. All I want to see happen is the updated firmware, and not having to wait weeks or months more for this to happen. I am sorry but CW information does very little to help us, but we do a lot to help him and Pioneer.

Believe me I want to see it to, if only so the masterpiece can be completed It does need to happen and it is overdue, but why not look at the good side of things when the negative thinking isn't going to get you the firmware any faster. There are ups and downs to having expectations. This is one of the downs - they aren't met sometimes and you get disappointed . One of the ups is that you have a clue of what goes on behind the scene, you do get an estimate of where the team thinks they are going, and you know someone is reading the forum and working on issues because they have virtually all gotten fixed and addressed in time.

But, aside from all the firmware business you have to also enjoy what you have. Bottom line is that a mountain of bitching isn't going to write the firmware any faster, they know we want it bad and they want to deliver it ASAP.

I mean, you've spent over $3k now on various BD players... Enjoy your movies on them! Heck this particular upgrade is sonically miniscule anyway (seriously); one would get more sonic benefit from optimizing speaker positioning than getting DTS-MA decoding. To me its more of just the star missing on the christmas tree, and granted the star is important... But I can wait.

A note to Chris Walker.

First let me say Its always nice to hear from you.
And please understand that knowing all the problems, financial and other wise Pioneer is having makes me nervous and wounder if we will ever get the firmware update. The delays over the last 6 or 7mos and now the latest delay is why I feel like i do. And maybe this will help you when you talk to the big cheese at Pioneer. And please let me know if there is anything I can do to help you, help us get what we all want. The perfect BD player.


ss

And I've spent $4K
And I have & do enjoy them. And much to my surprise, I'm not too terribly upset (yet)

Both you & Sillysally raise legitimate points. I'll repeat, they've already committed to having DTS-MA in the new players at launch, so they HAVE to get the FW completed.

But let's not delude ourselves that keeping 05/51 & even 09 owners happy is the top & primary objective...they have to have it for new player sales, period...they've already got our money. Let's be honest, when we see CW post, it typically just *happens* to coincide with new products or info to get fence sitters off the fence & buy, reduce negativity so that people will pull the trigger...he's promoting, man! Sure, he's passionate, sure he's an enthusiast, but his main goal as head of marketing is to market, and that's why he's here.

I think it's nice the plan is to update the 09 players first, since we've paid the bigger bucks, but make no mistake, marketing & sales is pushing the dev team so they can sell products not so much for our sake. We can hurt their sales efforts by our bitching, but our numbers & possible influence has to be less than the number of world-wide dealers asking for new, lower cost players to sell to THEIR customers.

ss9001

Does anyone have any proof that CW actually survived the turmoil at Pioneer.

Someone in the 05/51 thread got this reply from Pioneer Support:
---------------------------------
Quote:
Thank you for your inquiry, and your patience.

This update is in the final stages of development and should be available in early summer. As is common with these sorts of updates, the development process has been extended to ensure the integrity of the update and accommodate the participation of another company (DTS).

Thank You,

Pioneer Support Group
--------------------------------

Also, I sent my own (nicely worded) PM to Walkamo.
I wonder how many calls & emails they're getting on this. To be a fly on the wall.....

ss9001

I think that's an excellent question.

His last post here at AVS was on March 4th. His posting drops off after the introduction of the BDP 05 and 51 and the problems I feel Best Buy created by selling their demonstration machines with the not ready for the public firmware.

I would imagine he's just the messenger and the delays are 100% out of his control. However it would be nice to have some explanation for the continued delays.

With the delay being pushed to an ambiguous "summer" date we are coming up on a one year anniversary for the 05's and 51's. Considering "Moore's Law", I expect new, better, and lower cost machines to be announced or available from the competition by "summer".

Of course, but firmware is free while new & better players will cost you $$$.

Yep... Free firmware, that doesn't exist, is always a bargain!

Blasphemer!

It will come, and it will be good. As long as Pioneer stays afloat!

IMO you have already paid for the firmware, unless you bought the 09 happy with the fact it does not decode DTS MA, and would only think of the firmware as an added bonus.

A couple days ago Pioneer Canada CSR's stated the, "prepaid", firmware for the 51/05/09 is pushed forward again until May-June. These threads are slowly morphing from Pioneer owners threads into Owned by Pioneer threads.

Samsung of all companies and they have been pretty accurate. Check this link http://pages.samsung.com/us/bluraysupport/support.html they usually put the date when the next firmware will be released. Of curse those of us that have own a Samsung Blu-ray player know that it was painful ride to where they are they are now.

The DTS MA firmware seems to be going the same way as the Long Beach demo that was supposed to show how much faster the 05/51 was going to be than what was available last year at this time.

Seems some of us actually went out and purchased units based on this disinformation.