The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread... - Page 263

I did a video comparison in the past with the 09 and 83, and found little difference with BD, but a slight difference on DVD, with the nod to the 09. I never did that with audio, which is what this would be about. And again, it would be for my own curiosity; this "comparison," if it happens, should mean little to anyone else. I may not even bother to post results for that reason.

Besides, if the players are doing the decoding (to 2 channel), now that I think about it, it may not be much different than putting the analog signals through my stereo; it comes down to which player sounds better, or does the superior decoding job. Or is it still in the digital domain if going through HDMI?

If you bitstream via HDMI then it's digital to the pre/pro or receiver where it's then unpacked and decoded. So, you're hearing the quality of your pre/pro or receiver. Generally, using HDMI gives you the best chance at room correction depending on you equipment. This approach more or less makes all BDP's equal for play back quality. Especially, as thebland has pointed out, if you're outputting 1080P24 to a 1080P24 display.

In this case it's straight to the TV or through a Duo to the TV, so I'm still hearing the players' decoding. Which is why all it will tell me is which player sounds better, unless I'm missing something.

By the way, Happy Easter to everyone!

Happy Easter.
Judging a players sound quality through TV speakers? Volume differences, very limited frequencies... but if you prefer one over the other, that's all that matters.

Anyways, it is a moot point as most folks bitstream to their receiver or SSP... so you're hearing the DACs at the receiver/SSP and no auditory signature from the BD player (as b curry mentioned).

Respectfully, really, what's the point if you're dependent on the integrated amplifier and speakers of a TV? At best you have some form of pseudo center channel, synthesized surround or stereo coming through a limited bandwidth, full range speaker in your TV.

It sounds like you bought a 1000 horsepower Formula One car to drive your child to the end of the street for the school bus stop.

Anyway, if you decode in the 09 and send via HDMI then your TV is receiving or probably accepting only the baseline format; stereo (uncompressed) PCM. For digital audio, if an HDMI device supports audio, it is required to support only the baseline format, which is stereo (uncompressed) PCM. Other formats are optional. I have not seen a moderen TV that does more than baseline. In other words you can send the TV LPCM or Bitstream and its only going to see stereo.

If you were using some sort of AV receiver, the receiver would receive digital multi-channel PCM decoded from the 09.

In your case the best audio, in theory, would come from the analog out of the 09. I doubt that you can hear a any real difference either way, HDMI, PCM, Bitstream, or analog over a TV. I also doubt that you would hear a real difference from any BD player with analog out regardless of price or specification feeding a TV direct as you suggest.

Happy Easter!

Hopefully this wasn't directed toward me. I love my 09FD and wouldn't trade it for any other player on the market. It does whatever I need it to do PERFECTLY and there is no other player I can upgrade to that will give me a better movie experience. If there was, I'd buy it. ESPECIALLY if it was much cheaper. That being said, I don't think I could recommend it to someone that was considering buying a BD player now. Actually, for someone that just wants BD playback, the PS3 is still the king of the hill due to its rock solid BD compatibility history, built in wifi, and automatic firmware installations. It is the only BD player that can keep itself updated without any user intervention. And all for $299.

The problem I have with thebland though is that first of all, he doesn't own the player (09FD). And although people are free to comment on whatever thread they'd like, for some reason he chooses only Pioneer players to criticize. He's been doing this since the beginning of this thread, and he continues to just repeat his comments, no matter how inaccurate they are. And if he did this for all other players, I really wouldn't have a problem with him. Again, go take a look at the Ayre DX-5 thread and see how many times he's chimed in there. They make the SAME claims there, "BD performance is better on their player over HDMI" but for some reason thebland doesn't really launch an all out thread derailment argument in that thread. Also take a look on the Denon DVD-A1UDCI thread. It's had it's share of issues, but for some reason, the bland doesn't really comment on those and blow the issue waaaay out of proportion. He only reserves those comments for Pioneer.

I believe thebland had a Pioneer 05FD once and was burned by it, so it looks like he has a vendetta against Pioneer now and just likes to apply the issues he had with his 05FD to all Pioneer players. Someone will post that they are having a problem with a particular movie on their 09FD and thebland's standard reply will be, "OH MY GOD! PIONEER IS HAVING A PROBLEM WITH ANOTHER MOVIE!" And then go on to make a statement, "Pioneer players are plagued with BD playback issues." COMPLETELY inaccurately statement, but that doesn't stop him from posting it. I've had my 09FD since its release and it has been a rock solid player. It would play every single movie I'd throw at it. The only time I had an issue with it is when my optical drive started to fail. I had Pioneer repair it, and it is now working like new again, playing every single disc perfectly. Coincidentally, shortly after I had my 09FD repaired, the laser on my PS3 went out. However after ordering a $60 part (laser unit), I repaired it and IT is back to normal and in perfect working order. Neither issue would I hold against either player though. Things like this happen. It WOULD be a problem if I received my player and it continued to not play movie. But that's definitely not the case.

Again, it is obvious thebland has a bone to pick with Pioneer. Why, I really don't know. But it is irritating how he continues to chime in on threads FOR OWNER with the same crap he's been spewing since the beginning of this thread. Like I said before, I don't own an Oppo, but I'm sure it would be irritating as hell if I CONTINUALLY posted in an Oppo 83 thread about how crappy it was because it couldn't stream Netflix movies and how awesome my PS3 was because it NEVER had an issue with a BD movie. Just saying....

Lao Che,

I've owned an 09 since it first came out and I agree with you 100% that it's a top-notch player. I've never had any trouble with it and it has played every disc I've ever loaded. It replaced a Denon 3800 and I have no reason to replace it with anyrhing newer that I have seen. (I also qgree with you 100% about thebland).

IF you're using analogs, the player is good.

But for HDMI packed lossless (bitstream) and 1080P24 video, the 09 is no better than any other $400 player. Native 1080P24 resolution is pretty much identical amongst all HDMI players (no scaling involved and no proprietary filtering on the player's end). Moreover, bitstreaming a packed soundtrack is simply like passing a zip file to the player where it is opened, decoded, and converted to analog. The 09 or any other HDMI player has no impact.

So when you owners of this old player say it is better, I never see any objective answers or even theory. No one or any reviewer I have ever read speaks of differences in audio or video between players when comparing lossless bitstreams and 1080P24 over HDMI. There's a lot of ignorance here.

(no I have never owned an 05). Even Joerod, the 09's biggest proponet (and thread starter here) has long had the 09 out of his rack - replacing it with the far better, far more reliable, far more feature laden Oppo. It took Joerod a while, but he came around to what I've known for quite a long while. He's smart. THe rest is unsubstantiated, unsupported lunacy.

Again, for some reason you only make this statement (REPEATEDLY) in the 09FD thread. Why no "correcting" the Ayre DX-5 owners thread? Or Denon DVD-A1UDCI thread? Weird.


Most of the ignorance comes from you with your inaccurate statements regarding this player. I've corrected you before, but you ignore my comments and continue on with your agenda.


Joerod replacing his player with another unit has nothing to do with the quality and performance of this player. If you want 3D, this player is not for you. If you want Netflix streaming, this player is not equipped to do it. If you want outstanding, RELIABLE 2D BD playback, this is a fantastic player and really has no "upgrade" path if you already own one. However, if you want feature laden, you may want to look into replacing your Oppo with a PS3. MUCH more feature laden AND reliable when it comes to BD playback.

LaoChe,

My comment was not directed at you and if it came across that way please accept my sincere apology. It was just a generalization that has a little truth to it. I don't own a 09FD, but I do follow this thread in the event that I can pick up a little tidbit that could improve my video watching experience. Personally I would never comment about a product that I do not have hands on experience with.

My basic comment is that some would never concede that a $300 component may offer a comparable level of performance versus as a component from 2 or 3 years ago that cost 6 to 10 times it cost. The only question left is how each individual defines performance.

However, I will say as an owner of an Oppo player the question about whether or not the Oppo is better than player XYZ for blu-ray PQ comes up daily and the vast majority of the answers are NO followed by if your only criteria is blu-ray PQ, then you can spend less and achieve the same performance. It is only on the threads where the cost of the transport is 6 to 10 times the cost of another transport where most owners would not concede that this is possible. Again, this sentiment is not exclusive to the BDP-09FD thread. As previously stated I also own a Sony BDP-S5000ES and briefly owned a Denon DVD-3800BDCI, which I returned because it didn't offer any improvement in my setup for blu-ray or DVD playback. I've owned enough quality transports to feel comfortable about what my eyes are conveying to me. Different eyes see different things with no right or wrong answers.


Willie

That's alot of words. But tell us how bitstreaming, for example, is better in this player than any other???

Hint: you have no answer..... Again. Recall this is the AVScience forum. Let's have some science on your claims. You ask why I beat up Pioneer rather other manufacturers? Simple. Many (not all) of the 09 owners are the only ones that make ridiculous claims.

That's your answer.... Now tell me how bitstreaming is better on the 09???

Jeff has severe OPD (Obsessive Posting Disorder).....unfortunately, you're totally wasting your time with this....

I believe it is time that the Moderator of this forum point out to a certain individual that this is an 09 owners forum where those of us who own the 09 come to share information and learn more about the player's good and bad points -- not a forum for non-owners to bash the product.

bloody hell a 3800 ? that was a first generation denon, it only cost $2000 because of that, doesnt mean long surpassed. I wouldnt take one now if gave it to me.

I've owned a new BD player every year since the first generation sony bdp s1 and having owned those players can most definitely say every player have owned has be successfully a better player than one before. the sony 5000es visibly better than the pio I owned before it. and the denon 4010 a better player in both audio and video. selling my denon 4010 and going back to the sony was audibly and visibly a step back for me.

got a oppo 95 on order, i'll be interested to see what comes of it and how it stacks up. I'm no nostradamus to predict how it will go. but even if it is on par with the sony, likely serve its purpose as the sony is required back in the bedroom system.

I have a question for you. if all these players a much of a much ness these days, why 3 players in the system ?

Gary,

Answer the question. Laoche is afraid to.

Tell me how bitstreaming could be better from this player relative to any other player of your choosing. This is a science forum. If the 09 bitstreams better than any other BD player, tell me how it accomplishes such? If you can convince me, I'll buy one.

No owners seems to have an answer to this other than a defensive 'because it does'!!

The answer for me is that I don't bitstream -- never have. I send LPCM via HDMI to a Levinson 502 processor. I have also used the analog outputs of the 09 to the 502. Both methods sound superb.

Gary,

If you've read my posts, I've conceded analogs are good in this player. Digital (LPCM) is not something the 09 can impact. Did you know this or if you've read my posts know what bitstreaming is?


Sending LPCM Is little different than bitstreaming except that you get more jitter as the digital steam is 'unpacked' in the player and transferred to the player. However, the LPCM signal is decoded, post processed and converted to analog in the receiver or SSP.

Of course it sound superb... But you dodged the question. How is sending LPCM advantageous in this player relative to any other? I'll help you, there is no advantage. Being a Levinson guy, I was figuring on a better response. Who's to say any other player wouldn't sound superb? But more importantly, LPCM is still an unprocessed digital stream coming from the player - so still no proof on it's superiority relative to any other player on the planet.

I expected a better response from you.

I see where thebland is coming from he just wants to know why the 09 bitstreams better than all other players? I'm curious myself actually.

Quite honestly, you don't deserve a response at all. You are here to derail a thread, THAT IS IT! Your question has been discussed in this thread ad nauseam and you know it. Notice, NO ONE brought up bitstreaming. YOU are the one that brought it up.


Apparently you were pissed that someone claimed "this player is still the best player overall made to date" and then responded in almost a child like response, "nuh-uh." You just CAN'T STAND that people love this player and make every attempt to take a shot at it.

Again, if you are on a crusade to correct people claiming bitstreaming is better on certain players, I suggest you drop by the Denon DVD-A1UDCI and even more so the Ayre DX-5 thread and try to derail their thread. But for some reason, since the thread is not titled "Pioneer xxxx owners" I doubt you'll drop by. The MOST you will do is make a little comment and then never return.


And for some reason the mods are turning a blind eye to you. You are a troll in every sense of the word, but apparently, they really don't care. People click on this thread to discuss their player or issues they may have with it, hoping someone can help. Instead they have to weed through your garage posts to find an answer. It sucks, but I guess nothing will be done about it.

It's really very simple: don't feed the trolls.
Trolls will always go away if you stop feeding them....

No he doesn't. However if you were to ask me, I'm sure it is as good as any other player bitstreaming. The analog section and the build quality is what makes this player great. I also love the pure audio modes. The thing is a fantastic player, and has been extremely reliable for me. Again, there is no other player I can upgrade to that will give me a better 2D BD movie experience.

Good advice.

No need to apologize Willie.

Well at the end of the day LaoChe as long as your happy with it that's the main thing.
I'm curious why thebland mentioned bitstreaming if that wasn't discussed previously?
Anyway enjoy your player folks, it's definitely a nice player.

LaoChe,

If the player brings you joy for the reasons that you stated, then that is all that is important. I feel the same way about my transports for different reasons.

I would just ignore the comments since they don't devalue you your enjoyment of the player.


Willie

I trust you and everyone had a blessed Easter!

The 09/83 idea is really nothing more than idle curiosity and not a necessity to perform. I've all but talked myself out of doing it. My Kuro 111FD has exceptional sound for a flat panel and I initially thought it might be fun to compare players. Multichannel signals would usually be decoded to 2-channel; but with some 5.1 discs, that's what gets fed to the stereo, so that's what would get fed to the TV in those cases.

But as I say, I've pretty much talked myself out of the whole exercise. The Oppo has reached CA on its way to be repaired, so I have some time to talk myself back into it if I want.

[quote=thebland;Lossless bitstream over HDMI and 1080P24 video over HDMI, the best way to have audio and video today, is not 'enhanced' by this player (or any other for that matter). [/QUOTE]

Hi Jeff

Let me start off by saying that with the amount of money ,time and effort you have invested in your system,I find it quite irritating that you rant on so much about the other members of the forum not being able to provide a scientific explanation as to why player A sounds different to player B,as you keep reminding us how a $400 player sounds identical to a $3000 player.

The only reason I can give is choice of components by manufacturer and most likely the quality of the power supply.

You of all should know that it doesn't matter how good your gear is,if the source is poor,no amount of improvements down the chain will improve anything.

I would suggest if you can't hear the differences between players(using HDMI only),then something is wrong in your system.

Although a little off topic,what I'm trying to understand is your rationale for such statements.For a guy with $10k into his system,I could understand the reason for getting the best value and balance for his budget.But you sir,are clearly in the league of happily spending 90% more on a product to gain a 5-10% improvement.

I admit,I'm in the same boat as you,or even suffer from the same disease.

A couple of other similar cases in point,and no doubt you'll agree with me.

Stewart microperf versus woven screens,sure you can see moire with test patterns on the microperf(on a screen under 120"),but it doesn't seem to appear when viewing program content,I know I run a microperf and the picture is way way sharper on said screen.I also find the microperfs less objectionable than the weave on the woven screens especially on bright scenes.

Why does brand A amplifier rated at 200 watts sound better or different than brand b amplifier rated at 200 watts?Some people say they don't.

Why does some HDMI cable look and sound better than others?Some people say there is no difference.

Same with speaker cable.Some people say bell wire is the same as everything else.

You get the idea.Are you one of those people who just believe the majority or are you a person who strives to improve all aspects of his or her hobby by trying different gear personally in your system to improve it?

In my system the LX91/09 is clearly the better sounding player when compared to the oppo93 and others I have tried and by a country mile I might add.If you can't hear any differences between players in your system,then as I said you may have something in your system hindering the ability to hear the differences.Have you tried an 09 in your system?

Lastly,here are some of the things that made a profround improvement to the sound and picture in MY system.

Bridging the amplifier channels on the meridiann 558s to give 600 watts on each of the 3 front channels.
Swapping out Monster speaker cable to Kimber 4tc.
Upgrading to Kimber HD29 HDMI cable all round.
One of the most profound improvements to sound especially in the bass department was changing the audio research power cable to the Shunyata hydra6 with a Shunyata Black Mamba HC.

I must admit also that I was a little skeptical myself about doing the upgrades,you know SCIENTIFICALLY being able to justify it,but those things above really improved my system more so than a new component.

Sorry about the long winded post,but what I'm getting at,is if you haven't personally tried something,then you have no right to post your opinions.

Jeff,while I haven't personally listened to your system,and have no idea what cables you are running,2 things I would suggest is giving to the wife to tie rubbish bags up with all cables in your system that have Monster labling on them and if you are not already doing so run your power amplifiers directly into the wall avoiding power conditioners.

Talking about SCIENTIFIC proof to back up claims,both Shunyata and Kimber offer up pages of technical literature,Stewart has a white paper on the superiority of perf vs woven etc etc.But it's what it looks and sounds like at the end of the day,whether or not it makes a difference and a worthy addition to your system.Personally from MY experience the 09/91 is one of those additions.

Cheer's Steve.

I've posted this link before in this thread: http://toysandgadget.com/audio-tv/in...erence-player/. If you read the review, it will no longer be the case that you have never read a reviewer who speaks of differences between players when comparing 1080p24 over HDMI. This reviewer wrote that video on the Pioneer was noticeably superior to that of two Sony players.

Bravo!

Fun stuff!!

1. HDMI cables are all alike. I use Monoprice.
2. Stewart Microperfs do not show moire if ordered directly. They ship out a protractor of sorts and ask for your projector and throw. With the use of the protractor, you are able to calculate the angle at which the perfs wil run when the y manufacture the screen.... eliminating moire in your theater... For $20K, the screen has to be perfect (I have a 14' wide Vistascope) and they have a technique for such.
3. Shunyata and the likes are Voo Doo... as are HDMI cables differences. But the Shunyata is a simple fix relative to the route I took. Recall, we are not listening to a reference, single track recording of a cello or the likes. We are talking about multi channel, multi-track, heavily mixed Blu Ray, movie soundtracks. The cable is not the issue. I use EQUITECH balanced power isolation transformers as it has objective evidence of cleaning up the AC.


4. I am like Laoche with regards to audio (see below):


We agree!!



5. Video at 1080P24 over HDMI is pretty much identical across the board.

I've owned many $10K plus SSPs, speakers, etc. I have a reference, Alpha certified room (more stringent criteria than THX) and a reference projector with 4 HD players in the rack ranging from $500 to $2000. THey all look alike @ 1080P24 on my ISF calibrated SIM2 LUMIS/HOST. Granted few have the facilities to make such a comparison... but I do.

Improvements I made to my system, like you, are in amplifiers.
I run 2500W into my center, 700W into my L and Rs. 450W into my surrounds QSC Studio Reference Amps. I run 2500W into each sub.

Again, the 09 is a good BD player is you are anything but 1080P24 and using lossless bitstreaming.

Philosophically, I have made my reference system by trying and buying many components. I have changed the power, use reference equipment (including the new ADA Cinema Rhapsody Mach IV for surround processing), and have had the room Alpha certified, HAA certified and picture ISF certified. My room was built form the ground up by reputable company on the main floor of my home. It is an idyllic place to watch films. Acoustical work and took about 10 days to install and then calibrated. I also use DSPs in all channels and am converting from QSC to the new Trinnov Room Correction System. I'm not as concerned about wires as you do and simply use bi-wired 12' copper throughout. Never heard an audiophile wire that did anything different than 12 gauge.

I've stopped at little to have the best system possible. There is little I won't spend to get the best experience... that includes a $8K anamorphic lens . Simply put, if the 09 was that good, or if I felt 1080P24 varied significantly, I'd own it.