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The Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD Owner's Thread... - Page 265

post #7921 of 8564
Let's make sure we stick to the topic. Going off on tangents about other things makes the thread hard to read for those searching for specific information about the player.

some off-topic posts have been removed.
post #7922 of 8564
Time for me to chime on the PQ over HDMI controversy.

And I have the facts because I have the service manual which has the circuit block diagrams & signal flows!


There are people in this thread who have made statements about whether the PQ from any player over HDMI can be different than another.

Jeff Bland & several others, while they have reference theaters, some of the best in the US and are talented & knowledgeble as they come, have made an incorrect assumption that HDMI signals are no more than "unpacked" zip files, sent over an encrypted path. I've read this repeatedly in this thread & others, using the term "unpacked". And they further assume that the receiving device "unpacks" them, like opening a zip file. Their argument is that with HDMI, the player is no more than a transport. Signal is untouched by the player. They add to their incorrect assumption by saying that any player that doesn't do it this way is a wrong design. This is not supported by the circuit design or common sense.

They've got it WRONG! This is NOT the signal path in the BDP-09, 05, 51 and I'm willing to bet most players.

Where they go wrong is that if their argument were true, then no player on the planet could scale/deinterlace BD signals. And we know that isn't true.

I've looked at, studied the service manual. This is the simplified version of the video signal path in the BDP-09:

BD drive > SATA interface & circuitry > VIDEO PROCESSOR (Renesis chip) > MARVELL QDEO processor > HDMI Transmitter.

There is 1 input to the Marvell chip from the video proc board, and 2 distinctly separate outputs from the Marvell chip: 1 goes to the Advanced Digital processor to component video output, 1 goes directly to the HDMI encoder/transmitter.

There is NO direct path from the BD drive to HDMI circuits. None.

Pioneer alluded to this ability to process & tweak both DVD and BD signals by "upsampling" them to 48 bits color internally. They have several standard video processing settings that slightly alter the PQ, add NR, etc and those can be applied to BD as well as DVD. I can chose these settings for BD just as I can with DVD and they make a visible difference to BD as well as DVD.

That is what the Marvell chip does! The Realta chip in Jeff Bland's $2000 player does the same thing.
Also, Pioneer told us they were using a specially sourced chip for video processing....they said this back when the 05/51's were released.

So subjectivists take heart.....the claims that video PQ between players, even over HDMI, can be different is supported by the facts of the circuit design

Jeff & others have innocently made claims because they make the assumption that all HDMI is the same & that is not a true statement. Before any of us can make statements & make decisions on them, we have to know facts.

I'm convinced the Oppo players are designed & work the same way. Otherwise, what's the point of putting in hi-dollar processors like Marvell, Realta, ABT. It's not just for component video, which is eventually going to be restricted anyway for HD video!
post #7923 of 8564
Sorry, Jeff Bland, as much as I respect your opinion, on this one I think you've made a mistake

If people are interested, I can try to post screenshots of the circuit block design, to put this to bed once & for all. Like Obama posting his birth cert
post #7924 of 8564
Hey, great post!
Though neither side of the posters here have discussed the decoders, we know they are present but there is nothing unique about Pioneers (or any one elses).

Yes there are decoders in players but as I have repeatedly said, at the end of the day 1080P24 looks the same. There is nothing the Pioneer does differently - in fact i believe the 09 and 05 have the same decoders! I've never seen a PQ difference in the total of 6 players i have owned or still own. Of course there are physical differences but the subjective impact between them is neglidgible. I don't see it nor do the vast majority of AVS folks.

Your post illustrates more thoroughly that the video path isn't as simple as we have made it (but simply for discussions sake). To me the impact is more theoretical.

On the audio side, I'm sure you would agree differences in bitstreaming aren't even theoretically better in the 09 versus any other player.


Thanks for chiming in!
post #7925 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

So subjectivists take heart.....the claims that video PQ between players, even over HDMI, can be different is supported by the facts of the circuit design

Take the word of an insider... manufacturers tailor the image to their preferences.

The outputs of the video decoder blocks on the SoCs are bit-accurate for H.264 and VC-1, meaning the decoded video quality at that point is exactly the same for all players.

So, the differences in players is in the post-processing of the video, such as scaling, deinterlacing, edge enhancement, noise reduction, color correction, etc. This is where the "art" comes in.

Some player manufacturers (and consumers) may also tweak various settings (such as brightness, contrast, hue, saturation, sharpness, edge enhancement, 2D/3D noise reduction, gamma, color conversion, etc.) to achieve the specific "look" to the video that they want. The most accurate picture, although possibly not the most personally visually pleasing picture, is when all those type of controls are bypassed or zero'd out.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-dis...ml#post1069174
post #7926 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Take the word of an insider... manufacturers tailor the image to their preferences.

The outputs of the video decoder blocks on the SoCs are bit-accurate for H.264 and VC-1, meaning the decoded video quality at that point is exactly the same for all players.

So, the differences in players is in the post-processing of the video, such as scaling, deinterlacing, edge enhancement, noise reduction, color correction, etc. This is where the "art" comes in.

Some player manufacturers (and consumers) may also tweak various settings (such as brightness, contrast, hue, saturation, sharpness, edge enhancement, 2D/3D noise reduction, gamma, color conversion, etc.) to achieve the specific "look" to the video that they want. The most accurate picture, although possibly not the most personally visually pleasing picture, is when all those type of controls are bypassed or zero'd out.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/insider-dis...ml#post1069174

Great thread! Everyone here should read it.
post #7927 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Hey, great post!
Though neither side of the posters here have discussed the decoders, we know they are present but there is nothing unique about Pioneers (or any one elses).

Yes there are decoders in players but as I have repeatedly said, at the end of the day 1080P24 looks the same. There is nothing the Pioneer does differently - in fact i believe the 09 and 05 have the same decoders! I've never seen a PQ difference in the total of 6 players i have owned or still own. Of course there are physical differences but the subjective impact between them is neglidgible. I don't see it nor do the vast majority of AVS folks.

Your post illustrates more thoroughly that the video path isn't as simple as we have made it (but simply for discussions sake). To me the impact is more theoretical.

On the audio side, I'm sure you would agree differences in bitstreaming aren't even theoretically better in the 09 versus any other player.


Thanks for chiming in!

What about algorithms, firmware in the BD-09 or any other source players that controls how the possessor/scalier out puts the video via bitstream?

In your case you are using your projectors possessor/scalier, so I would think you are simply using source direct from a BD player. But there are many of us that do not use a projector because of the fan noise of a projector, no matter how good your room acoustics are there will always be that distraction.
The fan noise from your projector must be a down side for your audio enjoyment. Unless you have found some way to isolate your projector from your viewing room, have you found a way ?

And lets face it the real reason to use the BD-09 besides there PQ is because of the BD-09's analog audio broad.

ss
post #7928 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

What about algorithms, firmware in the BD-09 or any other source players that controls how the possessor/scalier out puts the video via bitstream?

In your case you are using your projectors possessor/scalier, so I would think you are simply using source direct from a BD player. But there are many of us that do not use a projector because of the fan noise of a projector, no matter how good your room acoustics are there will always be that distraction.
The fan noise from your projector must be a down side for your audio enjoyment. Unless you have found some way to isolate your projector from your viewing room, have you found a way ?

And lets face it the real reason to use the BD-09 besides there PQ is because of the BD-09's analog audio broad.

ss

I agree 100%. The analog facets of the 09 are a fantastic design. And you're right, I use a front projector but no player tweaks as I do all of the picture modification in the projector's menu system - so the 1080P24 picture I get from my players is modded in the projector - I imagine everyone here modifies their 1080P24 signal as well - so how how could one player's 1080P24 PQ it be better if we're all modifying it at some point!!??.

I am fortunate enough to have a projection room, so my room's noise floor is minimally affected by the fan noise. That said, the SIM2 is very, very quiet for a front projector - even so I couldn't live with it sitting over my head.
post #7929 of 8564
excuse my ignorance but can someone please explain the benefit of analog multi channel outs on this player given that 99% of home theatre receivers use digital volume control
post #7930 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I agree 100%. The analog facets of the 09 are a fantastic design. And you're right, I use a front projector but no player tweaks as I do all of the picture modification in the projector's menu system - so the 1080P24 picture I get from my players is modded in the projector - I imagine everyone here modifies their 1080P24 signal as well - so how how could one player's 1080P24 PQ it be better if we're all modifying it at some point!!??.

I am fortunate enough to have a projection room, so my room's noise floor is minimally affected by the fan noise. That said, the SIM2 is very, very quiet for a front projector - even so I couldn't live with it sitting over my head.

Jeff,so if the projectors doing all the picture modification,what's the point of you running the Lumagen,you know the box with Full CMS,11 point gray scale,no ring edge enhancement etc etc.Or do you have the new beta model which is transparent and doesn't alter the video signals?
post #7931 of 8564
I sold my Lumagen 3 years ago for exactly that reason. No need for scaling (but kept the anamorphic lens - the best addition to any front projection theater). The SIM2 pq controls are very, very good. My BD and HD DVD players are run into the SIM2 HOST (pj head unit) at their default settings (w/ Monoprice HDMI cables).
post #7932 of 8564
Guys: Please take the discussion (other than the Pioneer) to the appropriate forum or to PM.

Thanks
post #7933 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I agree 100%. The analog facets of the 09 are a fantastic design. And you're right, I use a front projector but no player tweaks as I do all of the picture modification in the projector's menu system - so the 1080P24 picture I get from my players is modded in the projector - I imagine everyone here modifies their 1080P24 signal as well - so how how could one player's 1080P24 PQ it be better if we're all modifying it at some point!!??.

I am fortunate enough to have a projection room, so my room's noise floor is minimally affected by the fan noise. That said, the SIM2 is very, very quiet for a front projector - even so I couldn't live with it sitting over my head.

I don't recall talking about a 1080P@23.976Hz. I was talking about how there could be differences in how the algorithms, firmware are written and implemented from player to player. Most displays don't have the kind of possessing and scaling going on that you have.
Plus the fact that the BD-09 is still one of the best up-scaling BD players for DVD's.
Anyway it would be interesting if you would try a BD-09 because of its 48bit color setting, I think your display can handle 48bit color.

I don't know how you split your audio and video but lets face it the BD-09 has a nice feature having two HDMI ports, imo you are better off using one HDMI port for your video and the other HDMI port for your audio.

In my case I use both of the HDMI ports and also the 7.1 RCA analog outs.

I still own my BD-09 but it is now my back-up BD player.

My point in all of this is yes the BD-09 is outdated now but it still performs well, if you have a need for its pluses.

Below is off topic so if you want you can PM me.
So I don't understand why you keep posting in this thread having never owned a BD-09 and a chance to really understand it, whats your point ?
post #7934 of 8564
Just got the Green Hornet and my 09 says "Disk Unrecognizable". Anyone else have problems with this

Dave
post #7935 of 8564
I've scoured the last few pages and found no reference to what somebody posted earlier regarding loud pops on the Bridge over River kwai blu-ray... Has
anybody heard of a fix?

I found the same problem, but on another disc: "How Do You Know" Loud pops
everywhere... I was running 2.65, updated to 2.71, but no improvement.

Any info will be much appreciated!
post #7936 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TIme Audio View Post

Just got the Green Hornet and my 09 says "Disk Unrecognizable". Anyone else have problems with this

Dave

I just tested Green Hornet on BD and it works fine on my 09 (firmware 2.71). Now there is a 3D combo of the Green Hornet which comes with a 3D BD, BD, and DVD. Just make sure you are not trying to use the 3D BD disc, because that definitely won't work.
post #7937 of 8564
Hey guys,

Is the PQ from the BDP-09FD the same or better than the PQ from a PS3?

Thanks,
Cole
post #7938 of 8564
Are there any of these for sale still?
post #7939 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by emz View Post

I've scoured the last few pages and found no reference to what somebody posted earlier regarding loud pops on the Bridge over River kwai blu-ray... Has anybody heard of a fix?

Not yet

Chris Walker from Pio US said he would look into it, but that was more on the receiver side. And no word on that either.

I'm not sure Pioneer even recognizes they have an issue with the players. There's been no acknowledgment from them in any player thread, AFAIK. But I could be mistaken since I don't read through these threads as often as I used to.
post #7940 of 8564
My reciever makes the pop noise, mostly on DTS MASTER. I called PIONEER CANADA and they never heard of any issues or the DTS BOMB. They told me to send an email and for some reason it goes to pioneer US, and its been 4 days and still never heard anything.

It happens on alot of bd movies. If I change the oudio to PCM on the BDP-09 it doesnt make the noise.

The Disney movie TANGLED makes the pop noise on the very end credits, when the song starts playing u I always get the pop noise. It even makes the pop noise on the PS3 SLIM but again when change to PCM it doesnt make the noise.

Pretty sad that my $8000.00 reciever has a bug in it and no one at PIONEER seems to know what it is. I bet there is alot more people out there that doesnt even know they have this problem, just us few on the fourms and PIONEER DOESNT SEEM TO GIVE A **** ABOUT IT
post #7941 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-713 View Post
My reciever makes the pop noise, mostly on DTS MASTER. I called PIONEER CANADA and they never heard of any issues or the DTS BOMB. They told me to send an email and for some reason it goes to pioneer US, and its been 4 days and still never heard anything.

It happens on alot of bd movies. If I change the oudio to PCM on the BDP-09 it doesnt make the noise.

The Disney movie TANGLED makes the pop noise on the very end credits, when the song starts playing u I always get the pop noise. It even makes the pop noise on the PS3 SLIM but again when change to PCM it doesnt make the noise.

Pretty sad that my $8000.00 reciever has a bug in it and no one at PIONEER seems to know what it is. I bet there is alot more people out there that doesnt even know they have this problem, just us few on the fourms and PIONEER DOESNT SEEM TO GIVE A **** ABOUT IT
What receiver do you have? SC-09TX? Have you tried the analog outs on the 09FD player to see if you still get the pops? If you are still getting the pops with another BD player, it obviously isn't the 09FD that's causing the problem. For what its worth, my 09FD is connected to my Pioneer Elite SC-07 receiver via HDMI and I've never experienced the pops you are describing.
post #7942 of 8564
I have the SC-09tx. Its my reciever causing the issue. I have changed out every component and even speakers and wires and still does it. I have just been able to replicate the problem with the disney movie TANGLED. Every other movie I would have to watch for awhile and then once it pops u never hear it again.

Really sucks because now I cant enjoy a movie cause iam waiting for the pop noise to happen.

Not sure whats happening with PIONEER but Iam really pissed expecially cause they dont even respond to emails. I think its about time to jump ship and start buying a different product.
post #7943 of 8564
In my meager understanding, I don't see how it could be the receiver... I am using the analog out from the 09 into the analog external in of the receiver (Denon 3805) and the only two discs that exhibit the pops are River Kwai and "How do you Know." Since the decoding is done on the 09, and I have had no problems ever before... how could it be anything other than the 09's audio decoding on these discs?
post #7944 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Are there any of these for sale still?

r u wanting a NIB unit ?
post #7945 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by emz View Post

In my meager understanding, I don't see how it could be the receiver... I am using the analog out from the 09 into the analog external in of the receiver (Denon 3805) and the only two discs that exhibit the pops are River Kwai and "How do you Know." Since the decoding is done on the 09, and I have had no problems ever before... how could it be anything other than the 09's audio decoding on these discs?

In your case, it looks like it is an issue with the 09FD. TK-713's issue is a little different. He's experiencing the pops with two different players.
post #7946 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanl715 View Post

r u wanting a NIB unit ?

preferably but open
post #7947 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TIme Audio View Post

Just got the Green Hornet and my 09 says "Disk Unrecognizable". Anyone else have problems with this

Dave

Green Hornet in my BDP09FD on Blu-ray disc works great,did you use the 3D Blu-ray disc or the 2D Blu-ray disc.TRIG
post #7948 of 8564
My SC-09TX pop some time, and i think it come from loose speakers wires , my speaker wires get loss all the time if it from the speakers or the SC-09TX.TRIG.I should say my speakers pop (not my SX-09TX) if it the left or the right or center or rear L/R but not all at the same time, than I will tighten my speakers wires and it does fix it until another speaker wire become loose,I think the vibration loosen my speaker wire,some time they become loose at the receiver right at the terminal lock and sometime the banana clip at the receiver get loose and or the banana clip at speakers get loose.I have ever had the same movies pop,I made all my speakers wire,I'am looking for some really good pre-made speakers wire for my SC-09TX and my BDP-09FD any ideal. TRIG
post #7949 of 8564
Had to take my 09 in for service today. Kept on getting "Can't Play" and "Disk Unrecognizable" errors. Can anyone take a guess on what is wrong and how much?

Thanks,

Dave
post #7950 of 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old TIme Audio View Post

Had to take my 09 in for service today. Kept on getting "Can't Play" and "Disk Unrecognizable" errors. Can anyone take a guess on what is wrong and how much?

Thanks,

Dave

If your firmware is up to date, it's most likely your disc drive going out. They'll replace it and it will be back to normal after the repair. I'm not sure how much it will cost though. My repair was done under warranty.
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