AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 65

post #1921 of 4075
3/11/11 at 6:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

LFE (the ".1" channel) is directed to the sub regardless of crossover point.

You can have 7 tower speakers that can go flat 20 Hz to 20 kHz, the LFE WILL still be directed to the subwoofer. LFE will ONLY be cancelled if all speakers are set to large and subwoofer to NO.

Yes and no. LFE is not cancelled if all speakers are set to Large and subwofer to NO. In this scenario, all full range bass plus LFE will be sent to the mains.

THX chose the 80hz crossover for a reason, it works for most speakers. The majority of home theater speakers are not designed to handle full range bass. For example, if you send a 20hz bomb blast to a speaker that can only play down to 95hz, the speaker may distort or simply drop the bass as it struggles to play a frequency it wasn't designed to play.
Reply
Reply

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #1922 of 4075
3/11/11 at 7:14am
@bd...

yup, we broke it all down... whys/hows/etc...

if i get a minute later today, i'll try and hunt down where in that thread you should start... but if you go to the first post on that thread, you'll find links to various discussions on the topic...
Reply
Reply
post #1923 of 4075
3/11/11 at 7:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdune View Post

Do you have the option to put your Subwoofer in-line with the LARGE speakers, and turn OFF the LFE setting on the A/V Receiver?

This is what we do, and I am able to set the crossover on the Powered Subwoofer to my liking, since all the LFE info is ported over to the LARGE speakers, and the sub then amplifies what I like, using the subs crossover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

That won't work, LFE isn't ported into the mains, now confirmed by the above poster. This is not a high end feature, I have an entry level denon that can do this and more.

I wonder if it's some sort of patent limitation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurolicious View Post

Yes and no. LFE is not cancelled if all speakers are set to Large and subwofer to NO. In this scenario, all full range bass plus LFE will be sent to the mains.

THX chose the 80hz crossover for a reason, it works for most speakers. The majority of home theater speakers are not designed to handle full range bass. For example, if you send a 20hz bomb blast to a speaker that can only play down to 95hz, the speaker may distort or simply drop the bass as it struggles to play a frequency it wasn't designed to play.

bd2003,

With all due respect, if you choose NO for the LFE channel, the information does get sent any speaker set to LARGE. Is this not correct?

Edit: Here is a quote from MacFan's Post :

"If the sub setting is No/Off, LFE and bass below the crossover from channels set to Small is sent to speakers set to Large. That's the only condition in which LFE is directed to speakers other than the sub."

So if you turn LFE Channel to OFF, the LFE signal DOES go to the LARGE speakers!

One of the reasons we put the Powered Subwoofer in-line with the FRONT LARGE speakers is so that the Subwoofer will actually get some use with source that does not have an LFE channel. If we only connected the Subwoofer to the LFE channel, then it would not turn on for source that lacks the LFE signal.

Think about the benefit there!

I want our beautiful Subs to get used!


Reply
Reply
post #1924 of 4075
3/11/11 at 7:38am
MacFan is correct. Let's say you're running a 5.0 system with no sub. If you set the two front speakers to Large and your center and surrounds as Small, the fronts will play full range bass combined with the crossed over bass from the Small speakers AND the LFE.
Reply
Reply
post #1925 of 4075
3/11/11 at 7:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdune View Post


bd2003,

With all due respect, if you choose NO for the LFE channel, the information does get sent any speaker set to LARGE. Is this not correct?

Edit: Here is a quote from MacFan's Post :

"If the sub setting is No/Off, LFE and bass below the crossover from channels set to Small is sent to speakers set to Large. That's the only condition in which LFE is directed to speakers other than the sub."

So if you turn LFE Channel to OFF, the LFE signal DOES go to the LARGE speakers!

Yeah, I misunderstood. I was under the impression that because LFE info over the cutoff isn't passed through to the mains with the sub, that it wouldn't be passed through at all with the sub off.

Still, that's a dirty hack to wire it that way. The receiver shouldn't force you to work around it's crazy limitations.
Reply
Reply
post #1926 of 4075
3/11/11 at 7:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Yeah, I misunderstood. I was under the impression that because LFE info over the cutoff isn't passed through to the mains with the sub, that it wouldn't be passed through at all with the sub off.

Still, that's a dirty hack to wire it that way. The receiver shouldn't force you to work around it's crazy limitations.

Actually, some 15 years ago, it was common practice. Here is some info on it from the Cambridge SoundWorks Powered/Slave Subwoofer Manual:

"A Note About Dolby Digital (AC-3), Large Front Speakers And Powered Subwoofers

While it is logical to connect the Powered Subwoofer to the “Subwoofer Output” or LFE (Low Frequency Effects) output of a Dolby Digital (AC-3) equipped system, there are some instances when bypassing this output can result in better sound.

Most Dolby Digital (AC-3) decoders automatically remove the low bass content from all the Main speakers if the “Subwoofer Output” switch is set to “On”. The Main speaker “Large/Small” switches still appear to function, but they are actually locked in the “Small” mode.

This automatic bass limiting is unnecessary with large Main speakers. You can effectively send all low-bass and Low Frequency Effects signals to both your Main Left and Right speakers and to your subwoofer by turning the subwoofer output “Off” and setting the Main Left and Right speakers to “Large”. This blends all the output of the Low Frequency Effects channel with the Main Left and Right speakers. The Powered Subwoofer needs to be connected with speaker wire to the Main Left and Right speaker outputs in this case."

That said, not all Subwoofers have line level inputs. Some only have one for the LFE channel.
Reply
Reply
post #1927 of 4075
3/11/11 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdune View Post


Actually, some 15 years ago, it was common practice. Here is some info on it from the Cambridge SoundWorks Powered/Slave Subwoofer Manual:

"A Note About Dolby Digital (AC-3), Large Front Speakers And Powered Subwoofers

While it is logical to connect the Powered Subwoofer to the "Subwoofer Output" or LFE (Low Frequency Effects) output of a Dolby Digital (AC-3) equipped system, there are some instances when bypassing this output can result in better sound.

Most Dolby Digital (AC-3) decoders automatically remove the low bass content from all the Main speakers if the "Subwoofer Output" switch is set to "On". The Main speaker "Large/Small" switches still appear to function, but they are actually locked in the "Small" mode.

This automatic bass limiting is unnecessary with large Main speakers. You can effectively send all low-bass and Low Frequency Effects signals to both your Main Left and Right speakers and to your subwoofer by turning the subwoofer output "Off" and setting the Main Left and Right speakers to "Large". This blends all the output of the Low Frequency Effects channel with the Main Left and Right speakers. The Powered Subwoofer needs to be connected with speaker wire to the Main Left and Right speaker outputs in this case."

That said, not all Subwoofers have line level inputs. Some only have one for the LFE channel.

Wouldn't that effectively turn off bass management for the center, surround, and all other channels though?
Reply
Reply
post #1928 of 4075
3/11/11 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Wouldn't that effectively turn off bass management for the center, surround, and all other channels though?

No.

Anything set to SMALL, will have the signal below the crossover sent to the LARGE speakers. In our case, only the Fronts are LARGE, and the Sub is in-line with the Fronts.

I suppose if all your speakers are LARGE, then yes...the sub would only amplify what is on the Fronts, but since you set the other speakers to LARGE, they should be able to handle the full range sound.

This setup only ensures the Subwoofer is active with source that doesn't have an LFE channel. That's why we do it.
Reply
Reply
post #1929 of 4075
3/11/11 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkdune View Post


No.

Anything set to SMALL, will have the signal below the crossover sent to the LARGE speakers. In our case, only the Fronts are LARGE, and the Sub is in-line with the Fronts.

I suppose if all your speakers are LARGE, then yes...the sub would only amplify what is on the Fronts, but since you set the other speakers to LARGE, they should be able to handle the full range sound.

This setup only ensures the Subwoofer is active with source that doesn't have an LFE channel. That's why we do it.

I guess that technically would work then, but it still seems like a crazy workaround requiring lots of extra work and wiring for what the receiver itself should be capable of handling on it's own. It certainly isn't user friendly, that's for sure.
Reply
Reply
post #1930 of 4075
3/11/11 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post
What's not correct? He wanted to set up his sub in a strange way due to a misunderstanding about the inputs. He should be using the bass management in the receiver, not bypassing it for no good reason. He also shouldn't need to set the gain by ear when mcacc can do the job more precisely.
You still have it wrong. The OP would be more than happy to set up his sub in the traditional manner; however his sub (powered) does not have an RCA jack "in". All it has is L/R, Front/Rear and center speaker connections. His sub has internal x-over (adjustable) and gain (adjustable). B/c of this, he is not able to use the avr's bass management (how would he?).
Reply
Reply
post #1931 of 4075
3/11/11 at 11:13am
If that's the case I've def got it wrong, but I've never heard of a sub like that. Must be some sort of HTIB sub?
Reply
Reply
post #1932 of 4075
3/11/11 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmurray716 View Post
You still have it wrong. The OP would be more than happy to set up his sub in the traditional manner; however his sub (powered) does not have an RCA jack "in". All it has is L/R, Front/Rear and center speaker connections. His sub has internal x-over (adjustable) and gain (adjustable). B/c of this, he is not able to use the avr's bass management (how would he?).
I set up a Bose system for a friend and the bose sub sub was the same way. Every speakers ran though the sub without any RCA sub input jack.

Yes, I feel dirty from having setup the system, and I tried to tell him not to buy it, but he didn't listen.
Reply
Reply
post #1933 of 4075
3/11/11 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
I set up a Bose system for a friend and the bose sub sub was the same way. Every speakers ran though the sub without any RCA sub input jack.

Yes, I feel dirty from having setup the system, and I tried to tell him not to buy it, but he didn't listen.
Did you take a shower after?
Reply
Reply
post #1934 of 4075
3/11/11 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post
Did you take a shower after?
I tried but it's like skunk stunk. It just won't come off.
Reply
Reply
post #1935 of 4075
3/11/11 at 12:56pm
LoL
Reply
Reply
post #1936 of 4075
3/11/11 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post
If that's the case I've def got it wrong, but I've never heard of a sub like that. Must be some sort of HTIB sub?
yes, htib. But for a lot of us $ is tight and he just bought the receiver and a new bd player. So he's saving up for speakers.
Reply
Reply
post #1937 of 4075
3/11/11 at 7:05pm
Not being happy with what I learned here about Pioneer receivers and the crossover setting in which a crossover below 120 results in LFE between the crossover and 120 being discarded on the LFE channel to the subwoofer, I decided to see if I could test this information.

I have a Pioneer Elite SC-37 with a speaker setup in which all speakers are set to small and the crossover is at 80 Hz. Using the Avia DVD and selecting the Advanced Menu and then the Reference/Evaluation section, I found a LF Sweep, LFE that starts at 100 Hz and decreases. Much to my surprise the 100 Hz tone emanated from my subwoofer (no where else)! I expected to hear silence at the 100 Hz tone.

Are we sure the crossover settings below 120 result in LFE above the crossover to 120 Hz being discarded?
Reply
Reply
post #1938 of 4075
3/12/11 at 6:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraMR View Post

Not being happy with what I learned here about Pioneer receivers and the crossover setting in which a crossover below 120 results in LFE between the crossover and 120 being discarded on the LFE channel to the subwoofer, I decided to see if I could test this information.

I have a Pioneer Elite SC-37 with a speaker setup in which all speakers are set to small and the crossover is at 80 Hz. Using the Avia DVD and selecting the Advanced Menu and then the Reference/Evaluation section, I found a LF Sweep, LFE that starts at 100 Hz and decreases. Much to my surprise the 100 Hz tone emanated from my subwoofer (no where else)! I expected to hear silence at the 100 Hz tone.

Are we sure the crossover settings below 120 result in LFE above the crossover to 120 Hz being discarded?

You wouldnt hear silence, but it would start to measurably roll off at the crossover.
Reply
Reply
post #1939 of 4075
3/12/11 at 7:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

You wouldnt hear silence, but it would start to measurably roll off at the crossover.

Cobra, as bd2003 indicated, the crossover is not a brick wall. the setting is where the amplitude slope starts decreasing. In my test, to which I referred earlier, I used a SPL meter to compare the signal amplitude of the Avia LFE sweep between using the lowest and highest crossover values in the AVR.

I think that if you do the same test, between the minimum and maximum crossover values, you will be able to hear that the 100Hz volume will be significantly different between the two.

Dan.
Reply
Reply
post #1940 of 4075
3/12/11 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by britbill View Post

Hey all,

I picked up both the Pioneer 920 and the Onkyo 508 today. I'm still trying to decide which one I should open. They both cost exactly the same but the Pioneer seems to be a better value. One question I have for you...In all honesty, Is it better to have the basic MCACC that comes with the 920 or the Audyssey 2EQ that comes with the Onkyo?...I do have a Sub so I am leaning towards the 920..just need a nudge...Going to the 1020 or a receiver with Multi EQ is not an option....Thanks

I think sound wise, both are pretty much the same,,,,,however, I have had 3 onkyo products and have had quality issues with all......pioneers are better built.
Reply
Reply
post #1941 of 4075
3/12/11 at 6:48pm
Hi Everyone...

I'm trying to make heads or tails from my MCACC calibration on my new Pioneer Elite SC-35...To me the three different presets just don't sound very good compared to using a blank preset with no info on it, other than the distance and levels. I just would love to make this system sound the best

I was wondering if someone might be willing to take a look at my output from MCACC. I would try to look at it myself, but don't own a PC based computer only a mac, which can't read the file... I have it saved from the receiver onto my usb where the file now sits on my desktop. So if you've got some time to have a look please let me know and I'll email it over to you.

I've actually included the file in this post as a .zip file...

The speakers I'm using are all JBL's.
Fronts:ES80's X 2
Center: ES25C X1
Surrounds: ES20's X2
Polk Audio Sub: PSW10


Thanks to any one who can help...

Greg

 

SC-35_UXJCB.mcacc.zip 5.041015625k . file
Reply
Reply
post #1942 of 4075
3/13/11 at 5:16am
When I first ran mcacc on my new 1120 I did not like the sound either. Coming from an un-eq'd Yamaha 2095 I preferred the sound of my speakers(NHT SuperTwo's-mains, Ones-center and surround, and Zeros-height) without mcacc.

I then did a little research on speaker positioning. I adjusted my speaker setup a little using tips from some home theater magazines and articles. Nothing radical, I toed the mains in a touch more, moved my center 4 or 5 inches to the left so that it wasn't directly in the exact middle of the room.

I also shortened the measurement time on mcacc to 30-50ms so that it was measuring more direct sound and not so much reverb. I then ran it again and was much more impressed with the results.

I also went through and measured the levels with a spl meter and corrected any differences. MCACC had set my center 1db low and the surrounds 1db high. All those little tweaks made a huge difference in the sound. I figured that everybody was raving about the difference that mcacc could make in room correction and I just had to tweak it a little and give it a chance. It sounds pretty amazing with a well recorded lossless blu-ray soundtrack now.
Reply
Reply
post #1943 of 4075
3/13/11 at 10:59am
What setting did u like most? The symmetry, all ch adj or the front align? The mcacc has done really well with the levels and distance, but it was the eq that made them sound different. It seemed like to me like it had totally taken out the bottom end. Like it had removed all the base almost from the sound. I would say it didn't nearly sound as full.
Reply
Reply
post #1944 of 4075
3/13/11 at 6:52pm
That was my impression also, sounded very flat before my tweaking. I am using symmetry right now and have no complaints with it. I would play with some of the settings like the measurement time and x-curve. I would also double check the levels with a spl meter mine were off. You might try playing with your speaker placement also, several inches of movement can change the sound at the listening position.
Reply
Reply
post #1945 of 4075
3/13/11 at 8:21pm
Could you explain the use of the x-curve to me? What is it's purpose? Right now I'm also now getting used to using symmetry and have to tweak the levels a little bit. Is it normal when adjusting the levels to 75dB, to have my mains at -8 and my center I believe at -11 and my surrounds at -6. They are now all ever close to 75 or a couple of points above...I'm all very new to this receiver and it's settings.

Greg
Reply
Reply
post #1946 of 4075
3/14/11 at 12:41pm
If you look at the x-curve graphy in the setup menu, it's sef explanatory.
Reply
Reply
post #1947 of 4075
3/14/11 at 8:01pm
I ran the following for the first time.

1) Set Reciever to MCAAC preset 1 (M1).

2) Go into Manual Sp Setup and change the SP settings

3) Now re-run Auto MCAAC but select custom, and then select Keep SP settings.

Question: For M3:Front Align, when I review the MCACC settings...I see that the F L and R EQ settings are flat...but Center, Surrounds have been set. Should the Fronts be flat like that? (When I say flat, I mean the EQs are all set in the middle)
Reply
Reply
post #1948 of 4075
3/15/11 at 1:30am
Front align sets the EQ of the centre and surounds to the fronts which are left 'flat'.
Yes. This is correct.
Reply
Reply
post #1949 of 4075
3/15/11 at 8:14am
Last night, after owning an Elite VSX-01TXH for about two years and seeing this thread (?), I finally did what Gamelover360 suggested... Wow! I've been missing out! Thanks!!!
Reply
Reply
post #1950 of 4075
3/15/11 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRAW View Post

Last night, after owning an Elite VSX-01TXH for about two years and seeing this thread (?), I finally did what Gamelover360 suggested... Wow! I've been missing out! Thanks!!!

What did Gamelover360 suggest? Please reference the post or include all of his suggestions for all of us to review as well. Thanks.
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Gear mentioned in this thread:

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread