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"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 113

post #3361 of 5311
Someone had a question about boosting of cutting a particular frequency in MCACC EQ by 1.5 db. To hear a difference a 3 db change is more likely needed. Wether I use all channel adjusted, front align, or symmetery, no big difference is SQ in my room. Having speakers set to small delivers tighter bass in my setup.
post #3362 of 5311
that was me asking about the "1.5 db tweak". Good point about the audibility of small adjustments!

After really wearing myself out with tripods, procedures, makeshift speaker stands, tweaking the EQ, etc.... I have finally put myself out of my own misery.

for me (I know this is heresy to some people who are VERY confident in their viewpoint)... I get more enjoyment from my two channel music in pure direct, no sub. sounds sublime and I can relax and enjoy. the pioneer elite class D amps are lovely - sufficient to replace the A/B integrated I had (which was expensive). And, I would never ever have dreamed of inserting an EQ when I had just an integrated amp, a cd player, and a pair of speakers. Never in a million years. So why would I do it now?

Also I have begun to wonder whether the thing bothering me might be more about phase/standing wave adjustments than about the acoustic EQ itself. It is possible, but I'm not so concerned about it anymore either way.

With my personal experience, biases, limitations, gear, etc... what works super is to use MCACC for mulit-channel purposes (I feel like I get a better presentation of DVD dialog and effects this way) ,,,, and pure direct for my Apple TV iTunes.

I would never presume to recommend this - the guys who say "if EQ is good for 5 channel it is good for 2 channel" are convincing.

But in the real world... MY real world anyway ... it sounds sterile.

One guy in a different thread said it this way: "Pure Direct is a hand job in a back alley, proper MCACC is a weekend with Scarlett Johansson."

I'd say that is probably true, including the fact that you will be certainly wearing a raincoat with Scarlett, and going bareback in the alley, and depending on how organic you like your experience and how hot your alley partner is, not all might prefer the same thing.

And, I'm not so sure that the value equation isn't different for two channel anyway. If you are not integrating 6 to 10 channels, six to ten different points of sound radiating toward some sweet spot (including a downfacing low frequency driver), it could be that the phase adjustments etc bring a diminishing return in exchange for the distortion of the EQ. Further, my head is decidedly NOT perfectly still in the listening position when listening to two channel music (as the mic on the tripod was) ... it is bobbing, shaking, dancing, walking around, maybe laying to one side as I drift off... and so I have come to a perfectly peaceful place using pure direct for two channel and MCACC for multi-channel. I'd rather have my balls rattling the way I want, than have a perfectly flat response for 500 hz at the microphone position along with whatever else is happening to the digital signal with MCACC.

And my hat is off to the experts who know I'm wrong about all of it - that if I had optimal speaker positioning, a tripod, and good taste, I would like MCACC better than pure direct for two channel. they are probably right.

I like no EQ, no phase adjustments, no sub, minimum distortion to the signal - for my two channel music. I feel VERY happy to have MCACC for multi-channel calibration... it is awesome. I like it better now that I have given myself permission to listen to two channel MY way though.
post #3363 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
the fronts have 2 of those drivers in them...
if you "messed around with the eq" and cut the lower frequencies, yes that may make your issue "go away", however, you are then creating another issue...
what you are "hearing" is what would logically be expected, given the specs... you found the "correct" solution earlier, which is to cross them higher...
I would rather stay out of this as I do not want to setup 80hz speakers at 150 to eliminate some sort of distortion which happens two times in a movie maybe!
You know what exactly does trim do in advanced eq settings? As when I put down trim on the surr speakers all came good.
post #3364 of 5311
@dozer... i think i know it was who said that... wink.gif however, "we" grant you permission to enjoy your system the way you like it... biggrin.gif we won't vote you off the island... tongue.gif it's not like you didn't put a lot of effort into trying to make it work for you, and you listened to advice and tried...

@joe... you are missing the point... spec'd response isn't relevant... however, if you want to stay out of it, you may do whatever you like... fwiw, my speakers have measured in room usable response (not spec'd) down below 40hz... they are crossed at 80hz... i'm not unusual in that...

you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole... let your subwoofer do it's job... don't be so hung up on the spec'd response of your speakers...

yes, it's not surprising when you cut the trim on the speakers that the issue goes away... however, you are unbalancing your setup by doing that...
post #3365 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuzz View Post

I would rather stay out of this as I do not want to setup 80hz speakers at 150 to eliminate some sort of distortion which happens two times in a movie maybe!
You know what exactly does trim do in advanced eq settings? As when I put down trim on the surr speakers all came good.
Can this all be caused by the movie tron? I read in a review of the movie that the dts soundtrack is distorted in some parts. Is this true? I only hear what I am hearing with tron movie and the explosion after the opening credits of ghost protocol. Have loads of movies and no problem with these and i am still using my setup i mean. Can this be real?
post #3366 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerrh View Post

Nope. When you set your speakers to "Small" that's when the crossover is used. If they are set to "Large" your AVR thinks your front speakers can play all frequencies.
Small = Anything below crossover is sent to sub(s). Anything above crossover is sent to mains.
The first sentence is correct but the follow up on small setting, not quite smile.gif. The crossover is a filter setting for sub and mains which has a slope and not a sharp cutoff. Here is a good graph that shows it at 80 Hz with typical slope:

3147d1178161449-amplitude-crossover-frequency-80crossover-sub-plus-main.jpg

So both devices receive signal outside of the set crossover point.
post #3367 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

The first sentence is correct but the follow up on small setting, not quite smile.gif. The crossover is a filter setting for sub and mains which has a slope and not a sharp cutoff. Here is a good graph that shows it at 80 Hz with typical slope:
3147d1178161449-amplitude-crossover-frequency-80crossover-sub-plus-main.jpg
So both devices receive signal outside of the set crossover point.

Yes, of course. The crossover is not a brick wall. I was just trying to simplify what is going on to make a point about the different settings and what they do.

Good graph though, really helps to visualize it.
post #3368 of 5311
Joe, since your rear speakers are not TXH with a limited frequency response, the xo has to be set higher. I have used a xo of 100 with a satellite system with good results since I did not want to set the xo at 120 hz or the sat. low frequency extension. The higher xo will re-direct some of the bass, clear up the midrange, and make dialogue clearer.
post #3369 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Joe, since your rear speakers are not TXH with a limited frequency response, the xo has to be set higher. I have used a xo of 100 with a satellite system with good results since I did not want to set the xo at 120 hz or the sat. low frequency extension. The higher xo will re-direct some of the bass, clear up the midrange, and make dialogue clearer.
I have the complete set of the Jamo D 600, so my surr are THX Ultra2 certified, and this is what is even more confusing to me! Previously I had a pair of Bose am5 at the back and went to purchase the rears to have a complete set because I was having the same issues with the Bose. At first I thought that problem was coming from timber mismatch between Jamo LCR and Bose surr, so that is why I went and got myself a pair of D600 dipoles.
I must admit that this sound is only present on certain parts of very few movies but is really annoying. I do remember that I had the same issue with the Bose, but since reading a lot about how Bose manipulate the frequency range, I decided to get a set of Jamo after having auditioned around 5 sets of other brands of THX speakers which to my ear these sounded great and to my pocket these fit just right.
Anyone had issues with tron soundtrack? Thank you for all the help.
post #3370 of 5311
Joe, I don't know about Tron but, in MIP Ghost protocol, that opening scene LFE is to much for a lot of speakers. Just be careful with these two movies. Those movies reqiuire a really good sub with some seriou below 20 Hz performance.
post #3371 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Joe, I don't know about Tron but, in MIP Ghost protocol, that opening scene LFE is to much for a lot of speakers. Just be careful with these two movies. Those movies reqiuire a really good sub with some seriou below 20 Hz performance.
Thanks for the reply. Actually i had twin D602 subs and swapped for one D600 sub as the performance from one of these subs is in a different league and the sub is fine, very good indeed to say the least. You can feel the room shaking like mad with those two movies without the sub breaking a sweat.
My disappointment comes from the rear surround speakers. I am planning to audition the LCR's at the back used as surrounds (which is against THX i know) and if the distortion is there, then the software is the problem. I am using PCH C200 media player and the rip is direct from the Blue ray movie, i know becasue i ripped it. The movie is not mine so i cannot confirm if on the original disc i have this issue. Apart from this, i was using the Onkyo 5508 preamp together with 5 marantz MA700 monoblock amps, and the Pioneer just blew this setup away. In terms of sheer power and speed I mean the power of the 86 is out of this world, ample power and control from the class D amps on board. Actually i was reading about Wyred 4 sound and their class D ICE power amps and was considering to keep the Onkyo as a preamp (which is very good and has XT32) and connect the MMC-5 to my setup, but since no one here in Malta stocks this brand i will be buying without trying, and this is something which i rarely do. What do you think of these amps?
post #3372 of 5311
Using a good sub or two is the way to go for producing great LFE. I use my SC 35 with two amps hooked to the pre-outs for my front stage . The Pioneer has a great pre-amp and the room integration is exceptional. Good luck!.
post #3373 of 5311
Any Pio folks with Definitive Tech mains with integrated subs that can help me with MCACC?

I've owned the Pio Elite VSX84TXSi for a number of years, bought it when it first came out, but have always struggled with the MCACC. I believe mainly because I'm using them with Definitive Technology BP2002 mains which have of course the powered integrated side-firing subwoofers. I've tried setting them up with a single pair of speaker wires (using the gold plated jumpers) as well as jumpers between only the mids/highs and then coax y-split from sub-out on AVR to the mains subwoofer RCA input.

I've never truly been happy with either setup and MCAAC calibration. I came from a simple but nice Marantz 5.1 receiver, but upgraded to the 84 after a move back in 06. I think I may be doing something wrong in setting up and calibrating with MCAAC, but suffice it to say, I've tried many, many times.

When I use the jumpers between all three binding posts (this method utilizes internal speaker crossover to send bass and LFE to subwoofer) it just doesn't sound right. I also have no bass control from the AVR because it does not "detect" a subwoofer. When I use the AVR's subwoofer out and split it to the two RCA inputs on the back of the mains, MCAAC constantly tells me to turn down my sufwoofers even when they're turned all the way down.

My room is open and ceilings are vaulted, this could also be lending to my frustration.

I've made it to page 7 of this thread, and will keep reading ,but was hoping someone out there has already been down this path and can lend some guidance.

thanks in advance-

/edit I should add that I did have the firwmare on this model upgraded for the LFE bug back in 07.
post #3374 of 5311
^^^

pm member sdrucker... he may have some insight for you...
post #3375 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
pm member sdrucker... he may have some insight for you...

Thanks for the tip. PM sent.

I did find some advice in the SC05 thread, but they were settings I've already tried. I could be missing something, I suppose, but hopefully sdrucker can provide some guidance.
post #3376 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by billymac View Post

Thanks for the tip. PM sent.
I did find some advice in the SC05 thread, but they were settings I've already tried. I could be missing something, I suppose, but hopefully sdrucker can provide some guidance.

Just when I thought I was OUT....you pull me back in, ccotenj:).

Billymac has an older Elite, so I don't know how useful my advice would be compared to my experience with Mythos ST and the SC-27/57 before I joined the Dark Side, but I PM'd him with the settings and approach I used in the days before I had my HSU subs in the HT.

Stuart
post #3377 of 5311
^^^

heheheheh... biggrin.gif you don't think you are getting out THAT easily, do you?

thanks stuart... i knew you'd help... smile.gif

guidance should be ok, what's true on the 25/27 should hold true for the 84...
post #3378 of 5311
^^
Of course not---you sent me to the independent measurement rabbit hole, remember:)?

I'm still living there...when I have the time to do another measurement after downloading Audyssey Pro 3.6, I may PM you about the bass decay and waterfall you were hinting were the next step....

NB: it's probably at least as worth it to jump in after MCACC, but for some reason MCACC folks don't seem as eager to go that route as Audysseyphiles.

Maybe we can get ss9001 to pick up an OmniMic and do some tests with his SC-68 LOL.... biggrin.gif

I hope I helped out billymac a little, though.
post #3379 of 5311
Someplace there are pix of my measurements pre-MCACC, post-MCACC, and after I tweaked a bit more to further flatten the response. I found a little tweaking after auto cal was helpful; the biggest issue I had was that MCACC dedicated all three PEQ's trying to fix a room mode. I moved a couple of the filters around to gain a little better overall response, tweaked the PEQ on my sub, and played with treatment and listening position to tame a peak and get out of a null.
post #3380 of 5311
@stuart...

yea, i suppose your residence in the rabbit hole can be blamed on me... redface.gif looking forward to your pm, let's see how much farther we can drag you in... tongue.gif i need to get back to that, i've been rearranging things a little bit searching for better mains positioning... gonna be a bit of time before i do that though, there's new video cal software to play with... biggrin.gif

agreed, i'd like to see some more measurements from people in this thread, especially from those who have done tweaking, specifically in the modal area... if anyone is listening and of a mind, post some up... let's see what can be accomplished with the peq filters that are available... smile.gif i know don (as he posted) did some, but i don't think i've seen any from anyone else...

@don...

yea, i remember you posted some, but darned if i remember which thread, and unfortunately, the search function on the new site is beyond worthless...
post #3381 of 5311
Post 3247, this thread. I have tweaked since but am too lazy to dredge up the results and post them. Not a whole lot of change, bit flatter in the bass region.

Page 109 -- http://www.avsforum.com/t/1112470/official-pioneer-mcacc-thread/3240 --scroll down to #3247 (I tried changing the link but it stubbornly refused to budge from 3240).
post #3382 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Just when I thought I was OUT....you pull me back in, ccotenj:)

lol
he does have that effect wink.gif
post #3383 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

^^
Maybe we can get ss9001 to pick up an OmniMic and do some tests with his SC-68 LOL.... biggrin.gif

working on it wink.gif
actually, I do intend to get one before end of yr so I'll be chasing rabbits too tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
post #3384 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Joe, I don't know about Tron but, in MIP Ghost protocol, that opening scene LFE is to much for a lot of speakers. Just be careful with these two movies. Those movies reqiuire a really good sub with some seriou below 20 Hz performance.
Since I am sick about this hobby, i could not swallow the fact that i have clipping on the rear surround speakers, and yesterday i went to the Jamo agent in Malta, who happens to be a very good friend of mine and asked him if i can take a set of LCR speakers to be used instead of the dipoles i currently have, as i know for a fact that the LCR of the D600 set handles more power and as described by ccotenj the LCR have two drivers instead of one. To my surprise, i still have clipping at the surround on certain movie bits. Must be either the software i am using or the PCH C200 as i am only using the media player right now. This evening i will be trying some original movies and not ripped through the PS3. Anyone had issues with software please?
Edited by joebuzz - 9/20/12 at 7:28am
post #3385 of 5311
^^^

your solution has been provided... you are searching for something else that does not exist... the problem is that you are forcing the speakers into power compression...

you may not like this... that's life... the laws of physics are not going to change just for you...
post #3386 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

^^
Maybe we can get ss9001 to pick up an OmniMic and do some tests with his SC-68 LOL.... biggrin.gif

working on it wink.gif
actually, I do intend to get one before end of yr so I'll be chasing rabbits too tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

and if you go...

chasing rabbits...

biggrin.gif

i can't wait for this... smile.gif
post #3387 of 5311
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
your solution has been provided... you are searching for something else that does not exist... the problem is that you are forcing the speakers into power compression...
you may not like this... that's life... the laws of physics are not going to change just for you...
I do understand that the laws of physics won't change just for me, but what I do not understand is why the compression is only happening on the rear speakers when I am close to reference level on all the speakers, and to make things more confusing now I have 5 identical speakers that is 5 LCR,s. you still think that compression is happening only on the rears because I am overdriving them? Strange as the information to the speakers is much lower on the rears, and I can hear the centre channel under much more load during the movies, but there is no compression on either of the other speakers. Strange very confusing. Last thing I will be trying is the source, I shall hook my ps3 and check if this still persists.
post #3388 of 5311
The rears may be set at slightly higher levels so are getting more power. If they are a little further away than the sides they may be driven harder (distance is a big factor in how much power is needed to match SPL at the listening position). Remember a 3 dB increase is not much to hear but requires twice the power. It also depends upon program content, of course; some movies may send more sound to the rears than others.
post #3389 of 5311
Rear and surround speakers get roughly 1/3 less current than the main and center speakers. For example, a THX select 2 avr will deliver 12 amps to the main speakers and 6-9 amps to the surrounds. Therefore, during dynamic passages in a movies the surrounds may not respond as well.
post #3390 of 5311
^^^


ummmmm.....
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