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"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 120

post #3571 of 5325
Looking into this more deeply, I'm finding that apparently Pioneer has combined (a) the bass-management crossover function and (b) the low-pass filter on the LFE channel -- separate settings on many processors -- into one global setting. Thus, clearly, you use lower frequency settings at the risk of losing LFE info above that frequency (although I can't find a spec for the slope of that filter).

I find this somewhat disturbing, although with the typical 80Hz crossover it's unlikely to matter.
post #3572 of 5325
^^

I think early implementations & cheaper models did this but this has not been the case for quite some time. at least that's what I remember from previous discussions. I do think this has been changed so that the sub output is (redirected bass) + all LFE (not crossovered). the global Xover doesn't filter the freq's sent to the sub, it filters the low freqs sent to Large speakers (low pass). that's why you wouldn't also use a sub's internal Xover or you would end up with a gap.

if you have info to the contrary, please post a link, your source or the info itself. I recall discussions where informed people confirmed that all LFE is sent to the sub & the crossover does not apply to the LFE ch but only to the speakers set to small and has been that way for a number of years. at least this is what I recall but do not have documentation just my feeble memory from many posts in this thread over the years and others wink.gif

a confusing topic, to be sure.
post #3573 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by info_dan View Post

Regarding crossover & LFE signal: I had done some tests in the pasts on the SC-07 with a LFE frequency sweep signal (from the Avia DVD if I recall properly) and yes, if you lower the crossover, the LFE frequencies above crossover do get filtered and NOT sent to the mains, just discarded.

Dan.

interesting...this would refute what I recall from discussions several years ago.
post #3574 of 5325
The following comes from the manual (p85) for the SC-1222K, a current midrange Pioneer AVR:

3 Select 'X. OVER' and set the crossover frequency
Frequencies below this point will be sent to the subwoofer (or LARGE speakers).
--This setting decided the cutoff between bass sounds playing back from the speakers selected as LARGE, or the subwoofer, and bass sounds playing back from those selected as SMALL. It also decides where the cutoff will be for bass sounds in the LFE channel. [Emphasis mine.]

This phrasing appears in every recent Pioneer manual I've spot-checked, in the "System Setup and Other Setup Menus" section, under "Speaker Settings." It seems unambiguous to me. The "cutoff for bass sounds in the LFE channel" can only be the low-pass filter. They're saying it's set by setting the crossover.
post #3575 of 5325
My SC-25 manual has the same verbiage on page 125.
post #3576 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

The following comes from the manual (p85) for the SC-1222K, a current midrange Pioneer AVR:

3 Select 'X. OVER' and set the crossover frequency
Frequencies below this point will be sent to the subwoofer (or LARGE speakers).
--This setting decided the cutoff between bass sounds playing back from the speakers selected as LARGE, or the subwoofer, and bass sounds playing back from those selected as SMALL. It also decides where the cutoff will be for bass sounds in the LFE channel. [Emphasis mine.]

This phrasing appears in every recent Pioneer manual I've spot-checked, in the "System Setup and Other Setup Menus" section, under "Speaker Settings." It seems unambiguous to me. The "cutoff for bass sounds in the LFE channel" can only be the low-pass filter. They're saying it's set by setting the crossover.

I thought the speakers set to large would send full range to the mains, regardless of crossover setting. In that instance, wouldn't the crossover setting only low-pass the sub, and only high-pass the mains if they are set to small?
post #3577 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

. It also decides where the cutoff will be for bass sounds in the LFE channel.
I suspect we are dealing with a complexity of terminology. As it pertains to a source, "LFE" is the ".1" in "5.1" -- that is an input to the receiver. But as it pertains to receiver outputs, it means "what is sent to the sub", which is, of course, not just the ".1" channel, but all the bass that would be sent to the "small" speakers (if they were "large" instead of "small"). So here, it means that the crossover setting is the frequency below which bass intended for the "small" speakers (had they been "large") will be sent to the sub.
post #3578 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post

I thought the speakers set to large would send full range to the mains, regardless of crossover setting. In that instance, wouldn't the crossover setting only low-pass the sub, and only high-pass the mains if they are set to small?

We"re just talking about the LFE channel -- the ".1" channel -- and how it gets low-pass filtered. Many processors have a separate setting for this; its purpose is to prevent the higher frequencies that sometimes find their way into the LFE channel mix from being sent to the sub. You would typically set it at 100 or 120Hz, even if you're using a lower crossover frequency (or no crossover frequency if you're running all full-range speakers and the sub is only used for LFE).
post #3579 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

I suspect we are dealing with a complexity of terminology. As it pertains to a source, "LFE" is the ".1" in "5.1" -- that is an input to the receiver. But as it pertains to receiver outputs, it means "what is sent to the sub", which is, of course, not just the ".1" channel, but all the bass that would be sent to the "small" speakers (if they were "large" instead of "small"). So here, it means that the crossover setting is the frequency below which bass intended for the "small" speakers (had they been "large") will be sent to the sub.

Read the passage from the manual again. It's clear that whoever wrote it understands this distinction. It doesn't say "LFE output," it says "LFE channel," and it discusses re-directed bass separately in the previous sentence. The word "also" makes it unambiguous. Redirected bass -- and ALSO the LFE channel.
post #3580 of 5325
That actually jives with my memory,and is one reason I set up my system the way it is (not the only, or even primary, reason). My L/R speakers are "large" to the AVR and I have no sub. In fact, I have two subs, in stereo, in parallel with the L/R speakers (after an active crossover before the amps).

AVR -> crossover -> L/R mains and subs
post #3581 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Read the passage from the manual again. It's clear that whoever wrote it understands this distinction. It doesn't say "LFE output," it says "LFE channel," and it discusses re-directed bass separately in the previous sentence. The word "also" makes it unambiguous. Redirected bass -- and ALSO the LFE channel.

rd

I found several white papers, one co-authored by Pioneer engineers, about the whole issue of bass mgmt. They are technical, one by Dolby, and one by the Pioneer engineers, and I want to browse them before drawing final conclusions, which I can't do now. But if what I read in the Pioneer paper is stated correctly, then I believe your concerns will be alleviated - that Pioneer is in fact doing proper LFE/LPF and not losing any frequencies.

what makes it confusing is that I think Pioneer's global Xover - bass mgmt does doesn't clip any freq's but does pass the whole 120 hz bandwidth for LFE but its not apparent to the user (unlike Denon, Onkyo, which has a separate setting for it). the user only sees "half" the equation.

give me a day or so to make sure I'm right and get in a position to post the papers with relevant quotes. also a thread that discusses this.

the phrasing in the manual has been around forever (exact same wording as in 59TXi manual) and does not exactly explain it very well.
post #3582 of 5325
The tests I had done way back, as I recall, were to play the LFE sweep from the Avia disc and mesuring the sound pressure with a meter. Changing the crossover frequency had a definite effect on the SPL of the frequencies above the crossover setting. This was on an SC-07. I haven`t tried it on my SC-27. Anyone with the Avia disk, an SPL meter and a Pioneer amp could replicate the test.

Dan.
post #3583 of 5325
This is certainly one of those things that may be more theoretical than real, even if it's true. You can't know something's missing unless you first know it's supposed to be there. But the region between 80 and 120Hz, while not "deep bass," is bass nonetheless, and attenuating it could contribute to a thinning of the sound if there's supposed to be energy there that isn't. Since we're not talking about music here, but rather (almost always) sound effects that probably consist of both LFE and normal content so that you still hear most of the sound from your mains, the (potentially) missing part of the effect could be very difficult to detect.

Still, worth knowing either way. More so for people with larger speakers who use lower crossovers.
post #3584 of 5325
Im tempted to change my xover to 120 and see what happens (Pioneer Elite 52).
post #3585 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by dborgill View Post

Peeps,

I have a Pioneer SC-1222-K that is amazing. That being said, my L/R are being set to -1db and my center is being set to -2db. Everything sounds great overall but sometimes dialogue is lost in the shuffle.

Should I increase my center or use the dialogue enhancement feature?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackangst View Post

Yes. Just bump up your center manually 1 or 2db. I have to do that as well.

Yes, I agree... On my SC-1222-k I have the center set at +2, fronts are -1, side surrounds are +3, rear surrounds +4, sub +5.

So much depends on your room acoustics, furniture layout, speaker height, speaker brand etc. You just have to tweak to taste!biggrin.gif (BTW, I've had my 1222 for about a month now and I love it!!!! A great choice!)

Bill.....
post #3586 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by dborgill View Post

Peeps,

I have a Pioneer SC-1222-K that is amazing. That being said, my L/R are being set to -1db and my center is being set to -2db. Everything sounds great overall but sometimes dialogue is lost in the shuffle.

Should I increase my center or use the dialogue enhancement feature?

In the April 2013 issue of Home Theater magazine, in the Letters section, an individual described how he improved his center channel dialogue when turning up the volume on his Pioneer receiver didn't help. Not saying this will work but I thought it was interesting, and he claimed it made a definite improvement... at least in his sutuation. Basically the process helped him find a "significant hump between 200 and 250 hertz" that MCACC failed to correct adequetly.

Said his problem was "tubby-sounding male voices" despite having premium speakers. He recorded some mono white noise on a CD to play via Dolby ProLogic engaged to steer it to the center channel, then recorded the output with a mic on his computer as a wave file. He used the spectral analysis tool in Cool Edit to examine the wave file which made him aware of that hump. The issue was too much bass boost and not the lack of highs, which he attributed to the room, and made the changes manually in MCACC. I would imagine this process could find other issues as well but I'm not familiar enough with MCACC to know if there is an easier and/or better way to handle this.
post #3587 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

In the April 2013 issue of Home Theater magazine, in the Letters section, an individual described how he improved his center channel dialogue when turning up the volume on his Pioneer receiver didn't help. Not saying this will work but I thought it was interesting, and he claimed it made a definite improvement... at least in his sutuation. Basically the process helped him find a "significant hump between 200 and 250 hertz" that MCACC failed to correct adequetly.

Said his problem was "tubby-sounding male voices" despite having premium speakers. He recorded some mono white noise on a CD to play via Dolby ProLogic engaged to steer it to the center channel, then recorded the output with a mic on his computer as a wave file. He used the spectral analysis tool in Cool Edit to examine the wave file which made him aware of that hump. The issue was too much bass boost and not the lack of highs, which he attributed to the room, and made the changes manually in MCACC. I would imagine this process could find other issues as well but I'm not familiar enough with MCACC to know if there is an easier and/or better way to handle this.

Google "Room EQ Wizard".

Piece of s/w you can install to a PC or laptop, along with a USB soundcard and decent microphone it will map out your room response, showing peaks and valleys in the freq response which you can then use to tweak MCACC values to correct.

It will also calculate the correct parametric filters for a sub if you have something like the Feedback Destroyer inline with your sub.

Note this is one huge advantage MCACC has over Audssey: you can go and tweak individual settings without undoing all of the work MCACC does for you.
post #3588 of 5325
I ran MCACC, and it sets all my speakers to LARGE. I'm currently using a 5.1 system. Front L/R Monitor 70's, Center 25C, Back Left / Right Jamo S426 towers, Sub Klipsch RW-12D. Before, I started using it, I went back to the setting and changed them all to SMALL and 80hz. I've never tried watching a movies / music setting all of them to Large. I'm going to test it right now see the difference in sound.

Does anyone have a similar set up to mine? Would you mind sharing your AVR's setting?
post #3589 of 5325
My SC-27 sets my mains to large; I set them back to small to engage bass management (then wired them totally differently,but that's another story). Very few speakers will perform well driven by large LF signals; even those rated to 30 - Hz often exhibit very high distortion down there.
post #3590 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisexv6 View Post

Google "Room EQ Wizard".

Piece of s/w you can install to a PC or laptop, along with a USB soundcard and decent microphone it will map out your room response, showing peaks and valleys in the freq response which you can then use to tweak MCACC values to correct.

It will also calculate the correct parametric filters for a sub if you have something like the Feedback Destroyer inline with your sub.

Note this is one huge advantage MCACC has over Audssey: you can go and tweak individual settings without undoing all of the work MCACC does for you.

Although my response was primarily meant to help dborgill, using Room EQ Wizard would be a better alternative for anyone who needs to address this sort of issue. I may give it a try myself to see if there is any way I can improve my setup... doesn't hurt to try. Thanks for the info.
post #3591 of 5325
Note MCACC does not EQ the sub, one of the main reasons to get REW and perhaps a miniDSP, Antimode, or other sub EQ unit.
post #3592 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Note MCACC does not EQ the sub, one of the main reasons to get REW and perhaps a miniDSP, Antimode, or other sub EQ unit.

What version of MCACC? AFAIR Advanced MCACC have at least three standing wave filters for sub... and I don't remember about parametric filters, but probably it also have some...
post #3593 of 5325
Hello,

I have a Sony 55HX850 LED. I posted the following question on the Sony HX850 forum:

me - "Regarding the auto scene select feature, this would automatically switch the HX850 to game mode when starting to play a game on my PS3. Now that I have the PS3 running through an A/V receiver (Pioneer SC-61) this feature no longer works. Is there any setting or anything I can do to fix this or do I have to change this manually for now on?"

I got the following reply:

"There should be a setting in your pioneer. Check HDMI Control function setting Standby source, control etc...check your source select settings also input assign. I have a Denon so don't know for sure of exact settings of Pioneer. Just giving suggestions"


Does anyone else here have this TV and understand this situation that can chime in? I'm not sure if other tv's have this same feature or not.

thanks.
post #3594 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Note MCACC does not EQ the sub, one of the main reasons to get REW and perhaps a miniDSP, Antimode, or other sub EQ unit.

What version of MCACC? AFAIR Advanced MCACC have at least three standing wave filters for sub... and I don't remember about parametric filters, but probably it also have some...

Yes, there are three PEQ bands (SWF's), but they only go down to about 60 Hz IIRC. It has long been an issue for some of us that Pioneer does not feel sub EQ is worth it... I understand their stance, just don't agree with it.
post #3595 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by PickleJuice View Post

Hello,

I have a Sony 55HX850 LED. I posted the following question on the Sony HX850 forum:

me - "Regarding the auto scene select feature, this would automatically switch the HX850 to game mode when starting to play a game on my PS3. Now that I have the PS3 running through an A/V receiver (Pioneer SC-61) this feature no longer works. Is there any setting or anything I can do to fix this or do I have to change this manually for now on?"

I got the following reply:

"There should be a setting in your pioneer. Check HDMI Control function setting Standby source, control etc...check your source select settings also input assign. I have a Denon so don't know for sure of exact settings of Pioneer. Just giving suggestions"


Does anyone else here have this TV and understand this situation that can chime in? I'm not sure if other tv's have this same feature or not.

thanks.

I don't recall anything that would allow you to control the TV like that; how does the TV know when you've switched to the PS3?

A universal remote would allow you to program the setting; you may be able to do something similar with the Pio remote. You might try downloading the manual and searching to see if something turns up.
post #3596 of 5325
The tv detects the signal so if I'm playing a game it will go into game mode shutting off all the processing that causes lag and if I start a bluray it will change the tv to cinema mode and there are settings for sports etc.

Once I got the AV receiver, my tv no longer recognizes when I'm starting a game. However it still does acknowledge the bluray signal and changes to cinema.

Anyways I just realized that I posted this in the MCACC forum and I mean to put it in the Pioneer SC-61 forum.

thanks.
post #3597 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Note MCACC does not EQ the sub, one of the main reasons to get REW and perhaps a miniDSP, Antimode, or other sub EQ unit.

I've been using an SMS-1 for the sub for a while now. Hightly recommend it for anyone who wants to manually tweak.
post #3598 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Cobra427SC View Post

I've been using an SMS-1 for the sub for a while now. Hightly recommend it for anyone who wants to manually tweak.

SMS-1 is like $500 dollars. No thanks.
post #3599 of 5325
And the Antimodes much more, but the miniDSP kits start around $100 and are integrated with the free REW SW.
post #3600 of 5325
Quote:
Originally Posted by PickleJuice View Post

The tv detects the signal so if I'm playing a game it will go into game mode shutting off all the processing that causes lag and if I start a bluray it will change the tv to cinema mode and there are settings for sports etc.

Once I got the AV receiver, my tv no longer recognizes when I'm starting a game. However it still does acknowledge the bluray signal and changes to cinema.

Anyways I just realized that I posted this in the MCACC forum and I mean to put it in the Pioneer SC-61 forum.

thanks.


does is detect the signal or just remember the setting based on which input you would be using?  with all your inputs going through the AVR it would only use one HDMI then.

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