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"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 124

post #3691 of 5331
^^ Well, audio mixers clearly do put content in the LFE channel for both theatrical and home releases. Lots of it, in fact, with some movies. And, LFE content is not necessarily discarded in systems configured without a sub. Some processors will redirect LFE to L/R when there's no sub.

I have a somewhat different view of these issues. Far from being theoretical, I think it's helpful for people to know how their equipment works so that they can configure it based on actual engineering rather than guessing what a processor will do.
post #3692 of 5331
Gusgus, thanks for that PDF, gives me something to do today.

Your setup looks nice, though if it were me I would scoot the towers farther apart. Seems like that would help build the front stage in movies, and at least wouldn't hurt in music.
post #3693 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by horseflesh View Post

Gusgus, thanks for that PDF, gives me something to do today.

Your setup looks nice, though if it were me I would scoot the towers farther apart. Seems like that would help build the front stage in movies, and at least wouldn't hurt in music.

I'm still working on speaker positioning. I'm thinking of moving the sub from the corner to the side. Near my front right surround. That way I can move the front towers apart.
post #3694 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

I think it's an engineering decision, not a screw up. From the reading I've done, that approach is not uncommon on processors with single crossovers. I own a Denon, not a Pioneer, with a single crossover and this issue came up in a thread at Blu-ray.com. It's easy enough to test. I ran subwoofer sweeps on both Avia and AIX calibration discs and determined that the bass management crossover does not affect LFE on my receiver.

Perhaps it is an engineering decision but if so, I'd call it a poor decision. That said, I do not believe Elite receiver crossovers eliminate those frequencies. Or at least I sure hope they don't.
I am having my TV and audio system professionally calibrated in June and will have that checked out.
post #3695 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by GusGus748s View Post

I follow the following PDF file instruction, and I love the base I get from my tower + RW-12D combo.

here's a link to the file:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wcvouknssbseg0m/MCACC_SUB_EQ_1_3.pdf

Wow, that helped a ton. Watched Prometheus in 3d and it was fantastic!
post #3696 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeclough24 View Post

Wow, that helped a ton. Watched Prometheus in 3d and it was fantastic!

That's great. May be the OP can add this to the 1st post for anyone who wants to use it.
post #3697 of 5331
I went through the PDF and on my 1522 (aka sc-65) the 63Hz slider was disabled. Why would that be?

Also, I found on my setup the advice in the PDF did not help--but it did guide me through the settings, and the end result is what matters.

I found that I got the best sound from Small speakers all the way around, Thx sub on (even though I don't have one) BGC off, and bass set to Sub, not Both. YMMV.

BTW I have HTD Level 3 speakers, and the fronts are towers specced to 30 Hz.
post #3698 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by horseflesh View Post

I went through the PDF and on my 1522 (aka sc-65) the 63Hz slider was disabled. Why would that be?

Also, I found on my setup the advice in the PDF did not help--but it did guide me through the settings, and the end result is what matters.

I found that I got the best sound from Small speakers all the way around, Thx sub on (even though I don't have one) BGC off, and bass set to Sub, not Both. YMMV.

BTW I have HTD Level 3 speakers, and the fronts are towers specced to 30 Hz.

You have to set your fronts to LARGE in order for the 63 Hz to be enable. That's only if your fronts speaker can handle it, which the L3 HTD tower can. I like having the fron left/right tower + sub with base. I will be trying to sell my speaker set up to buy the Level 3 HTD's.
post #3699 of 5331
In my system I am not using the sub output. The full range L/R preamp output goes to an external active crossover that divides the signal for the main and sub power amps. To the AVR it looks like a single full-range speaker. Thus, LFE is sent to the L/R speakers as normal, and nothing is lost.

If I was using the sub output and set the crossover to 50 Hz then LFE information above 50 Hz would be lost. This inability to separately set the subwoofer and LFE crossover is a design decision; I find it annoying. Ditto the decision to use a single crossover for all speakers, so that you cannot independently set the crossover for full-range mains (L/R) and small surrounds. Another compromise, every AVR has some...

My test DVD does put out a separate LFE signal...
post #3700 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Another compromise, every AVR has some...
..

I think it's fair to caution potential buyers that Pioneer receivers are optimal only for setups where all speakers have roughtly the same bass extension and all will work best with a crossover frequency of 80Hz or higher. That this describes a great many packaged HT speaker systems, including some excellent ones, doesn't change the fact that it's also common to sell systems with mains and/or centers that have considerably more bass extension than the surrounds.

It's a shame to hear about somebody buying excellent tower speakers that should be crossed over at 40 or 50 Hz having to use 80 or 100 because they bought small surrounds.

I don't consider this a compromise. I consider this a design limitation. I happen to have a speaker array that is perfect for Pioneer's scheme, so my VSX-1021 remains the bargain it was when I bought it, but it's really IMO something that should be widely known, especially by the people who sell Pioneer AVRs to unsuspecting buyers.
Edited by rdclark - 3/31/13 at 2:43am
post #3701 of 5331
I consider it to be a poor design decision or cop out.
Do it right, or do it the easy/ cheap way.
2k for a top line receiver with a major compromise.
Anyone follow the comic strip Doonesbury? That type so reasoning.
Would have looked for a different receiver had I known

That said, my L, C & R are all rated for 40Hz.
Surrounds at 60.
5.1 set up.
What's the best crossover / large/small combination?
post #3702 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by TracerJohn View Post

What's the best crossover / large/small combination?
IMO, best for the sound is: crossover=80 / no large / all small speakers. That is the conventional answer, but also the best. You may regret that your fronts have a larger bass capability than is exercised when the crossover is as put as high as 80Hz, but this has nothing to do with optimizing the performance of your equipment. There is just no logical connection.

There is also an argument that since crossovers are not "brick walls", but slope off gradually, it is best to provide an octave of frequency space for the gradual attenuation the crossover provides. Then with a crossover at 80Hz, since an octave down is 40Hz, fronts with response down to 40Hz are ideal. So, you see, you won't really be "wasting" the 40-80Hz response of your fronts at all.
post #3703 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

I think it's fair to caution potential buyers that Pioneer receivers are optimal only for setups where all speakers have roughtly the same bass extension and all will work best with a crossover frequency of 80Hz or higher. That this describes a great any packaged HT speaker systems, including some excellent ones, doesn't change the fact that it's also common to sell systems with mains and/or centers that have considerably more bass extension than the surrounds.

It's a shame to hear about somebody buying excellent tower speakers that should be crossed over at 40 or 50 Hz having to use 80 or 100 because they bought small surrounds.

I don't consider this a compromise. I consider this a design limitation. I happen to have a speaker array that is perfect for Pioneer's scheme, so my VSX-1021 remains the bargain it was when I bought it, but it's really IMO something that should be widely known, especally by the people who sell Pioneer AVRs to unsuspecting buyers.

Very interesting point of view. I do agree with much of what you say, and also believe that much of the market is tailored and sold to folks like me who try to accomplish quality 2 channel AND home theater with one setup. Typically, unless you're made of money, this means that you have two big ol' towers up front, smaller, often mountable surrounds, and whichever center channel speaker will both voice well with your mains AND physically fit within your mounting system.

Now here's where it gets tricky. I'm not an audio noob and have spent plenty of time in pro recording studios as a musician, and considerable time in my own semi-pro (about $30k) studio mixing on nearfields.

I honeslly believe MCACC does as much harm as good in my HT room with my speakers. I currently run 2.1 setup consisting of a SC-65 and 2 Bowers & Wilkins 683's getting 200wpc via an Emotiva amp. Oh yeah, and then there's the cheeseball Polk sub which I hope to blow up soon so the wife gets on-board for a new one. MCACC, regardless of the time position and regardless of if I run one or three seating positions absolutely KILLS everything below 100hz while simultaniously boosting everything above 2k until it beams straight at my skull. I for one think the 683's right out of the box are VERY bright and open up top, so to hype them by 6db at 8k is just asking for pain. Graphs of my room confirm what my ears already tell me. It stands at 90hz, which is a problem (although one that doesnt require a machine to try to make me believe 90hz content has never existed), but really, why the excessive boost up top? The speakers are in the middle of the room and pointing right at the mic....it can't hear that? uugh.
post #3704 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by GusGus748s View Post

You have to set your fronts to LARGE in order for the 63 Hz to be enable. That's only if your fronts speaker can handle it, which the L3 HTD tower can. I like having the fron left/right tower + sub with base. I will be trying to sell my speaker set up to buy the Level 3 HTD's.

Ah, the Large setting ... makes perfect sense.

Though, unless I missed some combination of settings, I did try Large for the fronts and that absolutely gutted the bass. Maybe I missed trying the Large and Plus setting together, which should dupe bass being sent to Large speakers and the sub.
post #3705 of 5331
I have my fronts set to large and the sub to plus.
post #3706 of 5331
There seems to be two camps on speaker setup, those that want their tower as Large and the all Small camp. Multiple sources of bass, ie Large speaker setting introduces phase and cancellation issues. Also multiple sources of bass introduce bass resonance issues at the sweet spot/s. The more frequencies a speaker is forced to produce, the more distortion. Few of us have full range speakers, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, anything less is not a full range speaker by definition. Full range speakers are not an excuse not to use bass management. Improper bass loading of the room from multiple speakers for the bass in the room leads to uneven bass. Bass management allows for a system to produce the loudest, cleanest bass possible for that system. Most standing wave problem occur under 125 Hz. Multiple large bass sources enhance the peaks and nulls in the room up to a 30 db difference. Lastly, if the mains produce better bass than the subwoofer/s, then a better sub is needed for that system. IMHO Pioneer is way ahead of the other avr's using a universal xo and MCACC bass management with standing wave correction. Audio science points to using bass management !
'
Edited by derrickdj1 - 3/31/13 at 7:15pm
post #3707 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by GusGus748s View Post

I have my fronts set to large and the sub to plus.

I have mine the same now and love it. Sub to plus and fronts to large.
post #3708 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post

Very interesting point of view. I do agree with much of what you say, and also believe that much of the market is tailored and sold to folks like me who try to accomplish quality 2 channel AND home theater with one setup. Typically, unless you're made of money, this means that you have two big ol' towers up front, smaller, often mountable surrounds, and whichever center channel speaker will both voice well with your mains AND physically fit within your mounting system.

Now here's where it gets tricky. I'm not an audio noob and have spent plenty of time in pro recording studios as a musician, and considerable time in my own semi-pro (about $30k) studio mixing on nearfields.

I honeslly believe MCACC does as much harm as good in my HT room with my speakers. I currently run 2.1 setup consisting of a SC-65 and 2 Bowers & Wilkins 683's getting 200wpc via an Emotiva amp. Oh yeah, and then there's the cheeseball Polk sub which I hope to blow up soon so the wife gets on-board for a new one. MCACC, regardless of the time position and regardless of if I run one or three seating positions absolutely KILLS everything below 100hz while simultaniously boosting everything above 2k until it beams straight at my skull. I for one think the 683's right out of the box are VERY bright and open up top, so to hype them by 6db at 8k is just asking for pain. Graphs of my room confirm what my ears already tell me. It stands at 90hz, which is a problem (although one that doesnt require a machine to try to make me believe 90hz content has never existed), but really, why the excessive boost up top? The speakers are in the middle of the room and pointing right at the mic....it can't hear that? uugh.

it could be your room? comibnation of speaker? and the color of your speaker to begin with? i don't know. but in my case, even ALL Channel ADjust barely touches 2khz. if one had to guess, i would venture to guess that your set is colored on the brighter side or that there's some room accoustic that's making MCACC thinking it needs to boost the 2khz.
post #3709 of 5331
guys, is there any down side to doing multi point MCACC calibration? for example, will it make the sweet spot less sweet? i am just wondering if i should do a multi point calibration.
Edited by howzz1854 - 4/1/13 at 9:54am
post #3710 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

i don't know. but in my case, even ALL Channel ADjust barely touches 2khz. if one had to guess, i would venture to guess that your set is colored on the brighter side or that there's some room accoustic that's making MCACC thinking it needs to boost the 2khz.

I reviewed the EQ graphs after All Channel Adjust and was surprised to find very little correction for my speakers. About the only one who got any real attention was the center. It reduced the low end (such as when set to Small) by a fair degree. Everything else was minor at best and I'm pretty sure I couldn't pick the native versus EQ sound out via a A/B test.
post #3711 of 5331
Conveniently enough, someone who left work at Pioneer Corporate just ended up as a new hire at my place of work. I spoke with him briefly and he says he still has connections to get some quality (and hopefully definitive) answers on a lot of the cause and effect, and the facts vs myths/assumptions on exactly how these settings impact or don't impact for things like x-over / LFE / big-small, etc, and what is truly at play in the background that isn't adequately disclosed in the GUI or in the manual.
Once he's settled here I'll try and get some good quality intel and report back.
post #3712 of 5331
you guys, don't mean to add any fuel onto any fire that's currently burning. but i think there's some kind of double bass going on with all the THX filter as well.

i listen to all my movies music in THX Cinema / THX Select 2. and it seems with any THX filters engaged, i get bass sent to the speakers, AND Sub as well. all my speakers are set to Large, and Xover at 80. but despite the cross over setting, the Bass still comes out of the speakers, AND the sub. only time when bass actually gets cut off is when you set the speaker to small, which makes sense. but i thought setting speaker to Large will still cross over to the sub when it reaches 80hz or below, but that's not the case. when signal is 80 or below, i get bass coming from both the speaker and the sub.

anyone care to explain the science behind this? i am not complaining, in fact, i like the sound it produces in all the THX filters, but i am just curious to learn the science behind it. for example, does THX settings automatically engage PLUS setting for the sub?
post #3713 of 5331
I did more experimentation, including setting my towers to Large and setting the bass to Plus. (Must have screwed that up before.) Compared to Small + Sub, this setting did produce more activity in the low end, including deeper sounds, but it also sounded muddier or boomier. By turning THX Sub to On, the mud thinned a bit. Turning on THX movie or music modes helped even more.

Overall I think I got a slightly more pleasant sound by setting the towers to Small and the bass to Sub. However I would like to find a way to increase the reach of the system on the low end--I know it can reproduce lower frequencies than it is choosing to with Small + Sub.
post #3714 of 5331
^^^ with my setup, all speakers to Large, and Sub setting to "yes", Xover at 80 my whole house shakes in THX Cinema. i can't imagine what sub setting is "plus" woud be like. i am not kidding, in dark knight rises, when "the bat" flies out from the alley way, the whole house shakes like it's earth quake.
post #3715 of 5331
I would not generally use the "plus" setting as the potential for additional FR irregularities increases as you add additional sources, especially when you can't optimize the location of said sources. That is, your mains are usually placed where they will fit and tweaked to optimize the sound at the listening position, and the subs placed where they maximize bass output while maintaining (relatively) flat FR. Once you do that, setting to "plus" to add bass to the mains may actually reduce the bass, or peak it above where it should be, and can certainly cause ripples in the FR due to wave interference (constructuve and destructive, creating peaks and valleys). It is a preference and room- and speaker-dependent, of course.

I side with those on the side of using bass management, which is what the "small" setting really does. That lets the sub do what it does best and the mains deal with the upper frequencies; most speakers even when rated to say 30 - 40 Hz distort like crazy when driven hard at those frequencies. Not all, of course, but I suspect the vast majority of speakers most of use fall into the category. I do not like Pioneer's crossover scheme but in the real world I really doubt we notice the missing HF LFE. In my very limited experience the HF content in the LFE channel is present in the mains as well so little if anything is lost. Of course that depends on the mix...

@horseflesh: I am not sure what you mean by "reach". If you have room modes, try moving the sub around. If you want more volume, turn up the trim on the sub after cal. If you want lower FR, you may need to reposition the sub and/or buy one that goes lower.

All IMO - Don
post #3716 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

you guys, don't mean to add any fuel onto any fire that's currently burning. but i think there's some kind of double bass going on with all the THX filter as well.

i listen to all my movies music in THX Cinema / THX Select 2. and it seems with any THX filters engaged, i get bass sent to the speakers, AND Sub as well. all my speakers are set to Large, and Xover at 80. but despite the cross over setting, the Bass still comes out of the speakers, AND the sub. only time when bass actually gets cut off is when you set the speaker to small, which makes sense. but i thought setting speaker to Large will still cross over to the sub when it reaches 80hz or below, but that's not the case. when signal is 80 or below, i get bass coming from both the speaker and the sub.

anyone care to explain the science behind this? i am not complaining, in fact, i like the sound it produces in all the THX filters, but i am just curious to learn the science behind it. for example, does THX settings automatically engage PLUS setting for the sub?

If this is while receiving a multi-channel signal, then your speakers are playing bass because of the Large setting (they each receive their full channel) and the subwoofer will play the content of the LFE channel. Crossover only affects small speakers. Otherwise, what do you expect would be the difference between "large" and "small"?

Dan.
post #3717 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

you guys, don't mean to add any fuel onto any fire that's currently burning. but i think there's some kind of double bass going on with all the THX filter as well.

i listen to all my movies music in THX Cinema / THX Select 2. and it seems with any THX filters engaged, i get bass sent to the speakers, AND Sub as well. all my speakers are set to Large, and Xover at 80. but despite the cross over setting, the Bass still comes out of the speakers, AND the sub. only time when bass actually gets cut off is when you set the speaker to small, which makes sense. but i thought setting speaker to Large will still cross over to the sub when it reaches 80hz or below, but that's not the case. when signal is 80 or below, i get bass coming from both the speaker and the sub.

anyone care to explain the science behind this? i am not complaining, in fact, i like the sound it produces in all the THX filters, but i am just curious to learn the science behind it. for example, does THX settings automatically engage PLUS setting for the sub?


What info_dan said is correct. But to say it in a different way:


With your speakers set to large and a crossover at 80hz your receiver is saying: "Hey speakers since you are set to large, you try and play ALL hz frequencies this audio input has to offer. Hey subwoofer, since this is a 80hz crossover, you go ahead and play any hz frequencies that are 80hz and below, but do not bother with anything over 80hz."

With your speakers set to small and a crossover at 80hz your receiver is saying: "Hey speakers since you are set to small, with an 80hz crossover, you focus on playing any frequencies from 80hz on up. But also, if you can, play some frequencies from 40hz-80hz to help blend with the sub. Hey subwoofer, since this is an 80hz crossover, you go ahead and play any hz frequencies that are 80hz and below, but do not bother with anything over 80hz"
post #3718 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goride View Post

What info_dan said is correct. But to say it in a different way:


With your speakers set to large and a crossover at 80hz your receiver is saying: "Hey speakers since you are set to large, you try and play ALL hz frequencies this audio input has to offer. Hey subwoofer, since this is a 80hz crossover, you go ahead and play any hz frequencies that are 80hz and below, but do not bother with anything over 80hz."

With your speakers set to small and a crossover at 80hz your receiver is saying: "Hey speakers since you are set to small, with an 80hz crossover, you focus on playing any frequencies from 80hz on up. But also, if you can, play some frequencies from 40hz-80hz to help blend with the sub. Hey subwoofer, since this is an 80hz crossover, you go ahead and play any hz frequencies that are 80hz and below, but do not bother with anything over 80hz"

so in a way, having the speakers set to Large, and Sub set to YES, it is in a way doubling the bass then. since full range bass is being played through speaker, AND through the LFE Sub; as oppose to speaker at small setting, only the Sub is playing bass. this confirms my theory of the double bass.
post #3719 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

so in a way, having the speakers set to Large, and Sub set to YES, it is in a way doubling the bass then. since full range bass is being played through speaker, AND through the LFE Sub; as oppose to speaker at small setting, only the Sub is playing bass. this confirms my theory of the double bass.


In fact, I think Onkyo actually calls this setting "double bass," and you can turn it on and off, rather than setting your speakers to small/large.

But like others have said before, this can create cancelation issues.
post #3720 of 5331
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

so in a way, having the speakers set to Large, and Sub set to YES, it is in a way doubling the bass then.
No, to double the bass, set Sub to Plus, not Yes.
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