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"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 125

post #3721 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goride View Post

In fact, I think Onkyo actually calls this setting "double bass," and you can turn it on and off, rather than setting your speakers to small/large.

But like others have said before, this can create cancelation issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

No, to double the bass, set Sub to Plus, not Yes.

if what you two say is true. our AVR, if setting speaker to large, and Sub to yes, you're getting "some" bass from speakers, and "some" bass from the sub. equals 1

and setting speaker to small, you're getting "full" bass from the sub and none from the speaker. equals 1

and setting speaker to large, and Sub to Plus, you're getting "some" bass in speaker, and "full" bass in Sub equalling 1.5 amount of bass?

i am just trying to understand the math in quantity.
post #3722 of 5340
If you set the speaker to large, it should be getting everything, not just some.


(whether or not it actually has the ability to play it all is another story)
post #3723 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

guys, is there any down side to doing multi point MCACC calibration? for example, will it make the sweet spot less sweet? i am just wondering if i should do a multi point calibration.

what about muti point calibration, can someone shed some light. please smile.gif
post #3724 of 5340
Comb filter effects can be very location-sensitive (inches) so a multi-point calibration would be my advice for the smoothest overall response. Unfortunately, my older unit does not do multi-point...
post #3725 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Comb filter effects can be very location-sensitive (inches) so a multi-point calibration would be my advice for the smoothest overall response. Unfortunately, my older unit does not do multi-point...

thanks for the response. but i just checked my VSX-1120k manual. and it seems the multi point EQ only applies to standing wave, is this true? can anyone confirm? this means it doesn't take different sitting position relative to speaker distance into account right?

if all it does is standing wave, i think i might as well skip that.
post #3726 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post


if what you two say is true. our AVR, if setting speaker to large, and Sub to yes, you're getting "some" bass from speakers, and "some" bass from the sub. equals 1

and setting speaker to small, you're getting "full" bass from the sub and none from the speaker. equals 1

and setting speaker to large, and Sub to Plus, you're getting "some" bass in speaker, and "full" bass in Sub equalling 1.5 amount of bass?

i am just trying to understand the math in quantity.
Here is my understanding, expressed in your terms. Let "1" represent the frequencies below the crossover in the right front channel. With setting the right front and sub as:

Large/Yes, you get 1 to the right front + 0 to the sub = 1,
Small//Yes, you get 0 to the right front + 1 to the sub = 1,
Large/Plus, you get 1 to the right front + 1 to the sub = 2 (double bass).
post #3727 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Here is my understanding, expressed in your terms. Let "1" represent the frequencies below the crossover in the right front channel. With setting the right front and sub as:

Large/Yes, you get 1 to the right front + 0 to the sub = 1,
Small//Yes, you get 0 to the right front + 1 to the sub = 1,
Large/Plus, you get 1 to the right front + 1 to the sub = 2 (double bass).

thanks! that makes more sense now. however, it doesn't explain why when i have all speakers set to Large, i still get bass from my Sub. if what you say is true, i shouldn't get any bass from my sub if i set all speakers to large. hence my curiosity about the THX filters.
post #3728 of 5340
Here is a copy/paste of some information from the 1522k manual:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneer 1522k manual, pg 94 
SW - LFE signals and bass frequencies of channels set to SMALL are output form the subwoofer when YES is selected. Choose the PLUS setting if you want the subwoofer to output bass sound continuously or you want deeper bass (the bass frequencies that would normally come out the front and center speakers are also routed to the subwoofer). If you did not connect a subwoofer choose NO (the bass frequencies are output from other speakers).
-- If you have a subwoofer and like lots of bass, it may seem logical to select LARGE for your front speakers and PLUS for your subwoofer. This may not, however, yield the best bass results. Depending on the speaker palcement of your room you may actually experiance a decrease in the amount of bass due low frequency cancelations. In this case, try chaning the position or direction of speakers. If you can't get good results, listen to the bass response with it set to PLUS and YES or the front speakers set to LARGE and SMALL alternatively and let your ears judge which sounds best. If you're having problems, the easiest option is to route all the bass sounds to the subwoofer by selecting SMALL for the front speakers.



From reading this it seems what GregLee is saying may be true.

However, if so, then this would be a deviation from how brands like Denon/Marantz handle it. With my Denon if I set my fronts to large, sub to yes, and a crossover of 80hz, then the fronts will play everything and the sub will play stuff that is 80hz or lower. I would have expected Pioneer to handle this the same.

I would have to test this, but I believe that Pioneer does in fact handle it that same way. While I think GregLee's interpretation does fit into what the manual says above, I took a different interpretation from it. To me, it sounds like if you set your fronts to large, subwoofer on, and crossover of 80hz, your fronts will play everything and the sub will do 80hz and lower (just lIke the Denon). However, if you set the fronts to large, sub to plus, with crossover of 80hz, I think your fronts will play everything, and your sub will play everything 80hz and lower, but also it will try and grab some additional bass above 80hz. If you set your fronts to small, sub to plus, with crossover of 80hz, I think your fronts will play everything down to 80hz then taper off, and your sub will play everything 80hz and lower, but it will also grab some additional bass from the fronts/center above 80hz. Again, this is just my interpretation from eading this section. I have not tested it.



EDIT:


In other words, my take on it is that when your fronts are set to small, sub is yes, and crossover at 80hz, your fronts will play everything down to 80hz, but then it will start to taper off, but still play some bass below 80hz. The Sub will start at 80hz and play everything lower.
When fronts are set to small, sub to plus, and crossover at 80hz, your fronts will play everything down to 80hz, and not taper off below it. Your sub will handle everything from 80hz on down, but it will taper off going above 80hz taking some stuff that the fronts/center would have played.

Again this is just a guess based off reading that.
Edited by Goride - 4/1/13 at 5:37pm
post #3729 of 5340
If you want to increase the gain on your sub a bit, is it better to do it in MCACC settings or on the actual sub or does it not make any difference?

Thanks.
post #3730 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goride View Post

Here is a copy/paste of some information from the 1522k manual:
From reading this it seems what GregLee is saying may be true.

However, if so, then this would be a deviation from how brands like Denon/Marantz handle it. With my Denon if I set my fronts to large, sub to yes, and a crossover of 80hz, then the fronts will play everything and the sub will play stuff that is 80hz or lower. I would have expected Pioneer to handle this the same.

I would have to test this, but I believe that Pioneer does in fact handle it that same way. While I think GregLee's interpretation does fit into what the manual says above, I took a different interpretation from it. To me, it sounds like if you set your fronts to large, subwoofer on, and crossover of 80hz, your fronts will play everything and the sub will do 80hz and lower (just lIke the Denon). However, if you set the fronts to large, sub to plus, with crossover of 80hz, I think your fronts will play everything, and your sub will play everything 80hz and lower, but also it will try and grab some additional bass above 80hz. If you set your fronts to small, sub to plus, with crossover of 80hz, I think your fronts will play everything down to 80hz then taper off, and your sub will play everything 80hz and lower, but it will also grab some additional bass from the fronts/center above 80hz. Again, this is just my interpretation from eading this section. I have not tested it.



EDIT:


In other words, my take on it is that when your fronts are set to small, sub is yes, and crossover at 80hz, your fronts will play everything down to 80hz, but then it will start to taper off, but still play some bass below 80hz. The Sub will start at 80hz and play everything lower.
When fronts are set to small, sub to plus, and crossover at 80hz, your fronts will play everything down to 80hz, and not taper off below it. Your sub will handle everything from 80hz on down, but it will taper off going above 80hz taking some stuff that the fronts/center would have played.

Again this is just a guess based off reading that.

these are all good interpretations, and i appreciate you all to chime in. however, i think there's definitely something going on with the THX processing that none of us fully understand what's going on behind it. because with all speakers set to large, and sub to "yes" only, i still get bass from the sub. oh well.... i like the way it sounds. smile.gif
post #3731 of 5340
I am not 100% sure how the SC-6 series receivers handle base but Goride's post would be the logical/customary method so crossing over.
post #3732 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goride View Post

What info_dan said is correct. But to say it in a different way:

With your speakers set to large and a crossover at 80hz your receiver is saying: "Hey speakers since you are set to large, you try and play ALL hz frequencies this audio input has to offer. Hey subwoofer, since this is a 80hz crossover, you go ahead and play any hz frequencies that are 80hz and below, but do not bother with anything over 80hz."

With your speakers set to small and a crossover at 80hz your receiver is saying: "Hey speakers since you are set to small, with an 80hz crossover, you focus on playing any frequencies from 80hz on up. But also, if you can, play some frequencies from 40hz-80hz to help blend with the sub. Hey subwoofer, since this is an 80hz crossover, you go ahead and play any hz frequencies that are 80hz and below, but do not bother with anything over 80hz"

Nice. You need to write the manuals for Pioneer. I like how this would be the manual having a conversational tone between the speakers and receiver. Very cheery.
Someone mentioned before the x-over isn't like a hard cutoff. It's a stepdown. I think it's a 12dB per octave slope. So the small speakers set with an 80Hz x-over would be -12dB at 40Hz.
So I think this is what you're getting at with the above, but the "if you can part" about the blend is more a function of the the slope than the true speaker capabilities at that point.

I'm still running with a large and plus setting (despite my speakers being bookshelf) because it just sounds significantly better to me overall (I'm not talking about bass quantity because that certainly isn't my measure of quality, I'm more talking about general tonality and balance that I found was very lacking by setting to small and yes), although I do have some fears still about bass doubling and compliations due to what I think at this time are limitations due to the way the amp was designed in regards to flexibility to accomodate as many tastes and system configurations as possible. I'm paranoid about muddying up the mid bass. Still looking for a more concrete solution. Nothing yet however.

One other thing that wasn't favourable for the small and yes setting for me was that on 2.0 source signals (which many stereo DVD's are) the sub will not contribute. On large/plus setting, the sub contributes. My bookshelves aren't adequate on 2.0. So unless I'm missing something, am I expected to go into the settings and change them every time I want proper levels of bass on 2.0 signals? That's a downer.

The key to all this I think is getting a proper defintion on what plus is. Double bass I think is misleading. There's doubling as in 2 drivers are trying to produce the same frequency at a certain point, but that happens in speakers naturally with more than one driver (which is basically all speakers short of your clock radio) so the fear of doubling may be overhyped. Maybe it's controllable and good results can be had but the doubling caveat in the manual has everyone running scared. It's not double bass as in the gain is doubled, or the frequency is decreased to simulate deeper bass or anything. If we can find out what signals the sub is receiving on yes and what it receives on plus that would clear up a lot. Pioneer's "output bass sounds continuously, and want deeper bass"
I'm going to go read the Anthem MRX-300 manual and see if I can draw any conclusions on how they explain things and if there's any obvious industry similarity in applications that I can reliably apply the same logic and make some better assumptions on exactly what my Elite receiver is up to within the dark corners of its chassis. I'm just afraid the MRX-300 is going to be better suited to what I want to do with my system and now I have to figure out a way to unload my Elite and regroup.
post #3733 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Here is my understanding, expressed in your terms. Let "1" represent the frequencies below the crossover in the right front channel. With setting the right front and sub as:

Large/Yes, you get 1 to the right front + 0 to the sub = 1,
Small//Yes, you get 0 to the right front + 1 to the sub = 1,
Large/Plus, you get 1 to the right front + 1 to the sub = 2 (double bass).

I think this is an oversimplification.
It would only truly be double the bass (where 1+1=2) if the mains had the ability to produce bass down to the same bottom frequency that the sub is capable of. Which is not likely because most people (not all... but most) have mains that are significantly less capable in producing bass than their subs.

There is doubling present between mains and sub, but not double the bass (the lower your mains extend the more potential for doubling). And using the x-over built into the sub that overlap (doubling) can be limited. Problem is, using the sub x-over in conjunction with the amp x-over has it's own inherent complications.
Edited by Jim Rockford - 4/1/13 at 7:04pm
post #3734 of 5340
I have a question. I ran the MCACC to setup my new 1522-k. It did its thing and for the most part sounds good except one huge issue. It set all my front speakers to large. So I am getting like no bass out of it. So I went in manually and set them to small and sub to on. It sounds a lot better now, but do I need to rerun the setup? Can you specify how you want the speakers setup before it does its thing?
post #3735 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by marjen View Post

I have a question. I ran the MCACC to setup my new 1522-k. It did its thing and for the most part sounds good except one huge issue. It set all my front speakers to large. So I am getting like no bass out of it. So I went in manually and set them to small and sub to on. It sounds a lot better now, but do I need to rerun the setup? Can you specify how you want the speakers setup before it does its thing?

You can if you want to, but you don't have to. You can leave it the way it is now set up to small.
post #3736 of 5340
People are guessing on what MCACC does for bass management. Measuring equipment is needed for an accurate interpretation in every room. There will be and overlap in frequency when running large Plus subwoofer.
post #3737 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

People are guessing on what MCACC does for bass management. Measuring equipment is needed for an accurate interpretation in every room.

+1

like last night's post about the sub in use even with speakers set to large. I've owned 4 Pioneer Elite flagship receivers, and with 2 ch content & Large, my 2 subs don't play & crossover is 80 wink.gif they are auto signal sensing & do not turn on.

what people think occurs is unproven & undocumented. if subs are playing with Large speakers, it's probably the dedicated LFE channel but that's an educated guess on my part eek.gifwink.gif

facts are needed, not speculations based on interpreting how the manual is written
Edited by ss9001 - 4/2/13 at 4:54am
post #3738 of 5340
This is how it works for me and I'm not that happy about it in all honesty (VSX-1018)

Fronts are set to large (Kef Q55's)
Rest set to small
Crossover set to 80hz

Sub set to OFF gives my fronts all the bass and they sound great
Sub set to ON cuts the bass from my fronts to what I'm guessing is the crossover setting, Sub only works for LFE
Sub set to PLUS cuts the bass from the fronts the same as when set to ON and Sub now provides both bass and LFE

Why the hell is the crossover setting messing with my fronts when they are set to large! Every time I turn the sub off of an evening not to annoy next door I have to go and change the sub setting to off so I can get the fronts running as they should.
post #3739 of 5340
MCACC tends to set even marginally bass capable fronts to large. Have you tried overriding MCACC for speaker size and setting them to small? The Q55s are spec'd to 40 Hz with the -6 dB point at 37 Hz.
post #3740 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by spookywillow View Post

This is how it works for me and I'm not that happy about it in all honesty (VSX-1018)

Fronts are set to large (Kef Q55's)
Rest set to small
Crossover set to 80hz

Sub set to OFF gives my fronts all the bass and they sound great
Sub set to ON cuts the bass from my fronts to what I'm guessing is the crossover setting, Sub only works for LFE
Sub set to PLUS cuts the bass from the fronts the same as when set to ON and Sub now provides both bass and LFE

Why the hell is the crossover setting messing with my fronts when they are set to large! Every time I turn the sub off of an evening not to annoy next door I have to go and change the sub setting to off so I can get the fronts running as they should.

I don't think so (guessing again? wink.gif) PLUS sends bass + LFE to both the fronts & the sub. I know this because I have a Velodyne DD18 sub with built-in parametric equalizer, measuring mic, and software. I can measure the response from the fronts by themselves (Pioneer Xover set to 80 and speakers as Large). and in Plus mode, can actually SEE the added bass on top of what comes from the fronts. and there are 2 dips/nulls in the bass response that are there with the fronts only & still there when two separate subs in different locations are added to the mix in Plus.

so, no I don't believe it works as you have described. I am measuring the room response from Large front speakers and Large front speakers + 2 subs.

#1 I would agree with.

#2 I disagree with because the response curve shown by the Velodyne system measurements are unchanged past what the subs have added and this is using the Velodyne's built-in sweep tones and NOT some dedicated LFE track. the subs have their own filters bypassed so receive the entire bass freq range up to 200 Hz. if the fronts worked as you say, I would have NO significant bass from them < 60 hz, accounting for roll-off from the Pioneer's 80 Hz Xover. and I measure all the way down to mid-30's ONLY from the fronts, very close to what they are specified to do by the speaker mfg. so the Pioneer Xover has ZERO effect on them set as Large.

#3 I also disagree with for the same reasons - that's not what happens in my system and I've been using 4 Pioneer top model receivers, all with the same MCACC functionality since about 2003. I added the Velodyne sub sometime in the 2004 timeframe so have a lot of experience with how the response curve has changed & not changed wink.gif I can also see the effects of Pioneer's standing wave filters & phase control. I also have an Audyseey based SVS AS-EQ1 sub equalizer added to the mix over a year ago and can readily see its impact on the room response and how it's differs from my Velodyne settings.

your post & this discussion again proves one thing - without real measurements on what happens with setup changes, people can only guess at what occurs

my experience & thinking may not be perfect, but at least I have real time measurements to back them up smile.gif
Edited by ss9001 - 4/2/13 at 7:40am
post #3741 of 5340
MCACC Off makes no difference except making it all sound muddled, It also has no effect on the bass cut off.

I don't want to set my Kef's to small, I want them set to large and act like it when I set the sub to either ON or PLUS, When the sub is set to off I can clearly hear a 30hz test tone but not when the sub is set to ON or PLUS which means the crossover is affecting my large speakers which it just shouldn't do as stated in the manual.
Quote:
3. Select ‘X. OVER’ and set the crossover frequency. Frequencies below this point will be sent to the subwoofer (or LARGE speakers).
This setting decides the cutoff between bass sounds playing back from the speakers selected as LARGE, or the subwoofer, and bass sounds playing back from those selected as SMALL. It also decides where the cutoff will be for bass sounds in the LFE channel.
post #3742 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

I don't think so (guessing again? wink.gif) PLUS sends bass + LFE to both the fronts & the sub. I know this because I have a Velodyne DD18 sub with built-in parametric equalizer, measuring mic, and software. I can measure the response from the fronts by themselves, and in Plus mode, can actually SEE the added bass on top of what comes from the fronts. and there are 2 dips/nulls in the bass response that are there with the fronts only & still there when two separate subs in different locations are added to the mix in Plus.

so, no I don't believe it works as you have described. I am measuring the room response from Large front speakers and Large front speakers + 2 subs.

#1 I would agree with.

#2 I disagree with because the response curve shown by the Velodyne system measurements are unchanged past what the sub has added and this is using the Velodyne's built-in sweep tones and NOT some dedicated LFE track.

#3 I also disagree with for the same reasons - that's not what happens in my system and I've been using 4 Pioneer top model receivers, all with the same MCACC functionality since about 2003. I added the Velodyne sub sometime in the 2004 timeframe so have a lot of experience with how the response curve has changed & not changed wink.gif I can also see the effects of Pioneer's standing wave filters & phase control. I also have an Audyseey based SVS AS-EQ1 sub equalizer added to the mix over a year ago and can readily see its impact on the room response and how it's differs from my Velodyne settings.

this discussion again proves one thing - without real measurements on what happens with setup changes, people are only guessing.

So your saying that when I listen to http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5b_fikmGLFY#! or a 30hz test tone that I am just imagining that I cannot hear the low bass when I set my sub to either on or plus and that I can hear it when I set the sub to off?

Have you even tested what I have described or did you just "guess" too and do we even have the same MCACC?

EDIT: I should also point out that my sub is actually turned off at the wall so the only bass I hear is from the Kef's (set to large) and that the bass cuts off when the sub setting is changed to either ON or PLUS
post #3743 of 5340
this thread has been going on for years & every so often the discussion gets re-ignited about how Pioneer's bass mgmt really works. it'd be nice if Pioneer had included both the low pass & high pass filter settings so owners could know for sure. but they haven't.

unless & until a Pioneer engineer or someone very familiar with how Pioneer designed their MCACC system comes to the forum with answers, posters say the same things, have the same differences of opinions, and no one is any wiser at the end. it may be educated guessing, but it's guessing all the same.

some are basing ideas on a literal interpretation of the manual, a very flawed way at best, since the manuals are not that well written. some base on regurgitating what they've read by others on this forum wink.gif, some (including me) make claims based on their own measurements, and some are just clueless about what bass mgmt does to begin with wink.gif

there we are...

I can't be convinced that my interpretations are wrong, unless someone smarter or much more knowledgeable than I am about Pioneer's software, can prove the facts and state otherwise. because I have seen the effects of a measured room response and don't see the effect of a crossover setting on my own speaker's response when they are set to Large with the Sub output turned Off. Setting them to Small DOES change how the response behaves and it was seeing with my own eyes that finally convinced me, after many years, to set them to Small, even though they can reproduce to 34 Hz.

I know the bass isn't cut-off < 80 hz on mine in Pure Direct and no subs because that's how I get my baseline response from them and they graphically & audibly produce to mid 30's.
Edited by ss9001 - 4/2/13 at 8:20am
post #3744 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by spookywillow View Post

MCACC Off makes no difference except making it all sound muddled, It also has no effect on the bass cut off.

wrong

of course it does. the MCACC system has EQ'r settings at 63, 125, 250 hz. It has a crossover & does the bass management. it has standing wave filters (3) that it sets 3 freq settings with varying Q values that can be different depending on speakers & measured response, these filters are too smooth out dips in the measured response. it has Phase Control that graphically effects the measured bass response. I can attach pics from my Velodyne system that will prove to you that these filters & group delay adjustments DO make a difference on bass response. otherwise, why are they there?

your statement may not be what you meant to say, but saying turning MCACC off or on makes no difference isn't right. as far as cutoff, when I start out, I do have it off and I still have mid-30 hz performance from my fronts. I can also confirm that I have bass from my fronts when MCACC is off because I have connected to the multichannel inputs on my SC-09, 2 other receivers so I can use the SC-09's amps for the new SC-68 and a very old vintage Sansui quad receiver. When I play the Sansui, I set the SC-09 to Pure Direct, turn MCACC OFF, and I have no sub output, there's no sub connection from it to the SC-09's input, because it predates subs. I get full bass from the fronts, no redirected bass to the subs from the surround speakers playing 4 ch quad recordings. the subs just aren't turned on at all and and I hear full bass, not cut-off at 80 hz. I can adjust the Sansui's bass control, whose control point is 60 Hz and it changes the bass just like you'd expect it to.

so that alone seems to disprove what I think you've said.

as to your own experience, let me think on that. I want to make sure I'm reading your statement correctly and interpreting it correctly compared to what I have. because saying the bass is cut-off from your KEF's when the sub is turned On doesn't jive at all with my own measured response. I'm not saying what you hear can't happen, but unless Pioneer has changed something in this year's models, it doesn't jive. but I may not be understanding you either.
Edited by ss9001 - 4/2/13 at 8:16am
post #3745 of 5340
I've read the web, the manual and some expert guides but I just let my ears do the talking.
Have you tried how I tested to see what I mean?

Sub switched off,
Fronts set to large (if they can go low enough)
Rest set to small
Crossover 80hz
Sub set to NO

Listen to a 30-40hz test tone or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5b_fikmGLFY#

I can hear the tone and the low rumbling bass in the youtube vid just nicely

Now go back and set the sub to ON or PLUS but do not actually turn on the sub, retest with the vid or tone.

I cannot hear the tone or the low rumbling bass.


When the other half gets off the TV I will retest but using different crossovers and that should confirm if MY amp is applying the crossover to speakers set to large.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

wrong

of course it does. the MCACC system has EQ'r settings at 63, 125, 250 hz. It has a crossover & does the bass management. it has standing wave filters (3) that it sets 3 freq settings with varying Q values that can be different depending on speakers & measured response, these filters are too smooth out dips in the measured response. it has Phase Control that graphically effects the measured bass response. I can attach pics from my Velodyne system that will prove to you that these filters & group delay adjustments DO make a difference on bass response. otherwise, why are they there?

your statement may not be what you meant to say, but saying turning MCACC off or on makes no difference isn't right. as far as cutoff, when I start out, I do have it off and I still have mid-30 hz performance from my fronts.

as to your own experience, let me think on that. I want to make sure I'm reading your statement correctly and interpreting it correctly compared to what I have. because saying the bass is cut-off from your KEF's when the sub is turned On doesn't jive at all with my own measured response. I'm not saying what you hear can't happen, but unless Pioneer has changed something in this year's models, it doesn't jive. but I may not be understanding you either.

OK what I said came across wrong, yes it does manage bass but only down to 63hz. It sounds muddled when turned off simply because the levels are out of whack which MCACC fixes wink.gif What it doesn't make a difference to is the bass response when the sub is set to ON or PLUS, There is just no bass.
Edited by spookywillow - 4/2/13 at 8:17am
post #3746 of 5340
^^
I can't do your youtube thing now, but I also have CD test tone disc that goes all the way to 16 hz! and I have used it to see how well the subs perform. it has been a number of years since I used it, but I'll tell you what I will do...

I will play it, in pure direct, MCACC turned off completely, turn off the surrounds, sub in the menu and let you know, probably later today.

and I will do this with my SC-09TX and my new SC-68 fed into the SC-09's analog inputs with everything turned off in the SC-09 so all I will get is un-modified signals from the SC-68's setup. I will duplicate the settings in both receivers.

I will not get out my Velodyne mic etc, because that's too much a PITA. you don't have an external equalizer either wink.gif

I want to be sure you & I are on the same page with our subs. do yours have a defeatable internal crossover? and do you have it bypassed or set to its max (usually ~200 Hz) so it doesn't interfere with the LFE crossover in the receiver? is yours an auto signal sensing sub?

if I can hear the tones in the 30-40 Hz range, whatever they are, and I know the subs are not playing because their auto-sensing circuit has them off, and I don't hear/feel anything from them, I'll let you know. I just may unplug them, too.
post #3747 of 5340
There's no need to change any settings other than what I posted earlier, no sub is needed as you are only testing the fronts. My sub runs perfectly when the amp is set to PLUS but thats no the problem.

My problem appears to be is the receiver is applying the crossover for the SMALL center and rears to the LARGE fronts which it shouldn't do when i set the sub to ON or PLUS
post #3748 of 5340
spookywillow, you're not in a listening mode that would matrix information from a stereo source to any of the other channels, are you?
post #3749 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by spookywillow View Post

My problem appears to be is the receiver is applying the crossover for the SMALL center and rears to the LARGE fronts which it shouldn't do when i set the sub to ON or PLUS

now we're getting to the real issue wink.gif

and if I understand your above statement as written, you are mistaken. if I haven't, then let me know.

any speaker set to Large will ALSO get re-directed bass below the crossover as well as the subs. turning the subs on does NOT mean the fronts won't also be getting re-directed bass from speakers set to Small. they will. the receiver crossover acts to send re-directed bass to BOTH Large speakers & subs. now, if I'm right, the crossover will have not cut-off the bass from the Large speakers, it will work on Smalls only.

that's they way it works, at least in Pioneer-land because theirs is a global crossover. if you want more control, so you can control what gets sent to sub and what gets sent to Large, you'll need independent crossovers & more flexible sub settings, both of which are in Denon & Onkyo receivers. Denon & Onkyo let you change the subs for LFE only, LFE + Mains, & stereo subs (one plays left side bass, one plays right side bass). Pioneer has not (yet) implemented it that way.

if you want ONLY the sub to play bass from your center & surrounds, you'll need to set the fronts to Small.

I will still do my test.
Edited by ss9001 - 4/2/13 at 9:04am
post #3750 of 5340
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

spookywillow, you're not in a listening mode that would matrix information from a stereo source to any of the other channels, are you?

that's also possible because using Dolby PLIIx, in creating surround & center from 2 channel (his youtube video) also creates a sub output and sends re-directed bass to it and Large speakers.

that's 1 more reason why it's so important not to jump to conclusions about how MCACC, Audyssey, YPAO and any bass mgmt system works, because there are many variables at work. and it is easy to misinterpret results & attribute them to something when it really is something else.

I will still do the test as I want to prove to myself one way or another that what he said may not be right (notice I didn't say wasn't, yet) I will use Pure Direct, Direct with MCACC off & then with on, because his interpretation is that the bass is getting cut-off from his KEF's set to Large and lost when the sub isn't used.

I'll even try PLIIx with the sub turned off. with the sub turned off, there should be no sub output and still hear bass below the crossover from the fronts.
Edited by ss9001 - 4/2/13 at 9:10am
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