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"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 126

post #3751 of 5334
spooky, it all makes sense now. and you are mistaken. I will give you the results of my tests and also try to explain.

Bass Test for Fronts Set to Large & No Sub Part 1

Your settings -

Sub switched off (I unplugged them, even though the auto signal sensing said they were off)
Fronts set to large (if they can go low enough)
Crossover 80hz ( I set mine to 150 Hz, so that if any bass was lost in the fronts, I'd know it)
Sub set to NO

Listen to a 30-40hz test tone - I used my test disc which has tones down to 17 hz. I used tones from 20 to 32 Hz.

1. I set AVR to Direct, Stereo & turned MCACC off, then I turned it back on & re-checked the tones.
2. I then used Auto Surround, PLIIx & re-checked yet again.

In all cases & combinations, my fronts play all the way down to 20 Hz, there is NO lost bass.

Your first conclusion that the crossover is working on the fronts seems to be wrong. I have no other explanation as to my results other than that. I also have 10 years of experience with MCACC & always have heard all the bass freq's my speakers are rated for with no subs. I can think of no other way to prove to you that if you set the fronts to Large they will play bass below the crossover setting in MCACC. There is a controversy regarding how Pioneer handles LFE bass below Dolby's 120 Hz upper limit, that it's possible that the way they implement their crossover can result in lost bass from the setpoint to 120 Hz, but personally I don't believe that at this time. if that were true, you'd always want to set the xover to the highest settings, 100 or 150 Hz and that makes no sense since 80 is the THX recommended setting which Pioneer has used as its default since I've owned them, 10 yrs!

Bass Test Fronts Set to Small & No Sub Part 2

Reset set to small
Sub switched off (I unplugged them, even though the auto signal sensing said they were off)
Fronts set to large (if they can go low enough)
Crossover 150hz
*Sub set to NO

* this is very IMPORTANT for you to remember. IF you set the fronts to Small, Pioneer will AUTOMATICALLY set the Sub to Yes, there is no NO option if fronts are Small. the software forces the subs to On in the menu when fronts are Small.

In this case, you will lose bass frequencies IF the subs are unplugged or turned off with a manual switch.

Why?

Because the bass management system is going to send the frequencies below the crossover to the subs and if you have unplugged them or switched them off, there is no speaker to reproduce them and they're gone.

If you doubt me, I can confirm what I say is true if you look at the Manual Speaker Settings menu.

I did this both in the SC-09 and the new SC-68 just so you know there are NO changes from an older model.

- SC-09: If you set the Fronts to Small, the software AUTOMATICALLY sets Subs to Yes and they can't be set to No.

- SC-68: If the Fronts are set to Small & you set the Sub to No, the receiver will flip the Front setting to Large and grey it out. Or you set the Sub to No, the Fronts will change from Small to Large; if you change Fronts back to Small, the Sub will automatically flip from No to Yes. You cannot set the Sub to No & Fronts to Small at the same time...the receiver won't let you.

So, the results in this case are exactly what they should be...lost bass from your fronts. the sub cannot be turned OFF in the menu if Fronts are Small. so if you set your Fronts to Small and manually turned off the sub, by switch or plug, you took away any means to reproduce bass.

And if the crossover did impact the fronts set to Large with no sub, then I would not have heard 20 Hz with a 150 Hz crossover, even with a roll-off. the gap is too large and the volume was too strong. it is what it is - no lost bass.

I'm sorry but I'm 100% sure you jumped to the wrong conclusions. both with the crossover & in where the bass from your surrounds & center is going to.

The manual is not very clear I admit. but I think you added 1+1 & came up with 3 smile.gif

Hope this all makes sense. If not, we can discuss more, but based on what I proved, there is no way you could convince me the Pioneer is throwing away bass from your KEF's. You may have something else in your setup, unknown to me, that can explain your result, but I sure don't know what it can be. Logic and the observed results say you're missing something in your setup or your understanding.

IMHO, your best bet is to make an executive decision, run the KEF's as Large and be content that they are going to also reproduce bass from center & surrounds with the sub. OR you can set them to Small (recommended) and let the sub handle it all.

There are no other simple options. the only alternative is to use high level or speaker level inputs on the sub, if it has them, and its own crossover to the fronts, and not use the receiver's LFE connection & bass management. if you're interested in doing it this way, DonH50 can help because I think he does his Magnepans that way: one way this works is to run fronts as Large, take the front preamp outs and send to sub, use the sub's internal crossover to block freq's > bass. There are also other ways.
Edited by ss9001 - 4/2/13 at 11:01am
post #3752 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

spookywillow, you're not in a listening mode that would matrix information from a stereo source to any of the other channels, are you?

This has something to do with it although I'm running Bi-Amped so it's just Dolby PLII Music, Just changed to stereo and hello the bass is now the same as when the sub setting is set to NO when it's in ON or PLUS. My mistake really as I should of tested stereo first.

SS9001 if you could still test that would be great.

I have been on the phone to Pioneer UK about this and I have an engineer calling me back tomorrow as he states that no matter what listening mode you have set or what setting the sub is set to you should still get the full signal to the fronts if you have them set to large. I only get this in stereo mode, Perhaps with a DVD or Bluray it may work as described which is something I will test later.

Using a standard or advanced surround mode should not affect what signal the fronts get with a stereo source according to the guy on the phone,

So what appears to be happening so far is the way the amp handles the stereo signal when using ANY surround mode, It sounds like it's ignoring my Large front setting and changing it to Small therefore removing the bass below the crossover and sending it all to just the sub. It never did on my old Sony....my Kef's lower end response was the same in stereo or any of the surround settings and if the sub was enabled or not in the menu's.

Oh and I never had a problem with MCACC at all, I think it's great. The problem i have is with the speaker setting options smile.gif




Edit, SS9001 I am in no way doubting you and am happy your amp is working as it should but as you said you tested the surround modes and you still got the same bass from your fronts as you do in stereo. That is not what I'm getting I assure you, If I had a decent powered mic or SPL meter I would run R.E.W and show you graphs to compare.

I wonder if this is because you have a higher end amp than me?
Edited by spookywillow - 4/2/13 at 11:16am
post #3753 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

@horseflesh: I am not sure what you mean by "reach". If you have room modes, try moving the sub around. If you want more volume, turn up the trim on the sub after cal. If you want lower FR, you may need to reposition the sub and/or buy one that goes lower.

I'll try to explain.

When I experiment with the Small and Large settings and sub settings, this is what I observe.

Small all around, bass to Sub: Sounds OK, but there seems to be less happening in the low end. The sub is not putting out the lowest frequencies that it can.

Large fronts, bass set to Plus: I hear much deeper sounds, not just louder bass... but I also hear some boominess/muddiness.
post #3754 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by spookywillow View Post

Edit, SS9001 I am in no way doubting you and am happy your amp is working as it should but as you said you tested the surround modes and you still got the same bass from your fronts as you do in stereo. That is not what I'm getting I assure you, If I had a decent powered mic or SPL meter I would run R.E.W and show you graphs to compare.

I wonder if this is because you have a higher end amp than me?

nope, just the receivers, external amps wouldn't make a difference.

on the 1st sentence I bolded: no, I didn't say that. What I said was I tried the Dolby PLIIx mode instead of Direct mode. I did that to show if another processing mode could somehow override turning MCACC off and result in lost bass from the fronts set as Large - it doesn't smile.gif

on the 2nd bolded sentence, of course using PLIIx would make a difference to bass response from the fronts & sub! I can't see how you would think it wouldn't confused.gif it's obvious! the bass that would normally go to the surrounds & center will go to your fronts or fronts + sub! so it will be different than playing in Stereo.

I think you still aren't getting the whole MCACC / bass management picture.

and I have no idea what you now are bringing to the discussion because you haven't mentioned it before now. all you have posted was

1) you were convinced the fronts were losing bass from the crossover even when it doesn't apply
2) you thought the surround & center bass would only come from the sub

first, it's "forget measurements, you go by hearing" with your missing bass. then it's the issue of where the bass from center & surrounds gets sent. now, it's results on REW graphs & using PLIIx rolleyes.gif what are you really trying to prove or disprove? do you know? wink.gifbiggrin.gif

I spent nearly 2 hrs of my time responding to you, explaining things to you & taking time to actually try your settings and all I got was proof that I've been right & you wrong in your conclusions..that you think something is occurring when it really isn't because you think you know what's going on beneath the covers and made blanket statements as such when you may be leaping to unwarranted conclusions

in #2, you aren't correct.

and in #1, I don't see how it can be. mine aren't nor haven't been for 10 years with 4 Pioneer receivers all same MCACC wink.gif

and my receivers are identical to yours in MCACC functionality. I don't believe you are interpreting your results in the way MCACC really works.

if you are of the belief that the sub and sub only will be doing bass from the center & surrounds, you are mistaken. the manual even says this...that bass will be sent to both the sub AND speakers set to Large. that is the way it works, that's the way it has always worked. and that would explain why your results from the fronts may be different as you claim with REW.

if you are in Stereo, and fronts set to Large, then sub will only be used if Plus is used. it will only come on if surround processing is applied to create the sub output, with 2 ch sources.

and Plus will mean the sub is on & producing bass EVEN IF all speakers are Large, the fronts are Large or you are playing 2 channel source and staying in Stereo.

if measurements you did show bass changes from different modes, all that proves is changes occurring from applying the processing and re-directing the bass not anything to do with the speaker setup.
Edited by ss9001 - 4/2/13 at 1:11pm
post #3755 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by spookywillow View Post

This has something to do with it although I'm running Bi-Amped so it's just Dolby PLII Music, Just changed to stereo and hello the bass is now the same as when the sub setting is set to NO when it's in ON or PLUS. My mistake really as I should of tested stereo first.

DPLII creates content from the stereo channels and sends it to the center and surrounds. When playing test tones, if it's a mono tone present in both channels, ALL of the sound will end up in the center channel (that's how matrixing work: if a sound is present at the same level in both channels and both channels are in phase, DPL routes that sound to the center channel).

With the center set to small, MCACC would then route all of the bass from the center to the mains (sub "off") or to the sub (sub "on").

This completely explains what you were hearing, and why changing to stereo cured it.
post #3756 of 5334
"So what appears to be happening so far is the way the amp handles the stereo signal when using ANY surround mode, It sounds like it's ignoring my Large front setting and changing it to Small therefore removing the bass below the crossover and sending it all to just the sub."

well, that's new info wink.gif at least new to me...I admit I'm confused.

that statement is different than what you stated earlier where you thought the bass should NOT come from the fronts (set as Large) when the sub is On. in fact, its completely opposite wink.gif sorry, I'm not trying to give you a hard time...but what you are posting now sure doesn't sound consistent, at least to me redface.gif

let's start at beginning...

1. is this for a 2 ch source? or 5.1 surround?
2. you felt you were not getting bass from a 2 ch youtube test tone from the fronts even tho they are Large and there's no sub. is this correct so far?
3. is this in Stereo or surround modes?

> if Stereo, did you put the receiver in Direct mode, not Pure Direct, but Direct? if Direct, MCACC & bass mgmt will be used. if Pure Direct, the only MCACC function in use will be the preamp channel levels, EQ & BM will be Off.

---this should give you full bass to the fronts, and sub will not be used, unless this is a 5.1 recording with dedicated LFE ch.

> if Surround but in Direct mode, with 2 ch source, you should ONLY get 2 ch. since Direct is whatever is on the disc or source. Bass mgmt will be applied but since there is only 2 ch's from 2 ch's, no Small speakers to redirect bass from.

---full bass to the fronts

> if Auto Surround and a surround mode is used, then a center & surrounds will be created. Since they are Small, the bass that the surround processing is artificially creating for them is sent to sub & Large.

--you should get full bass from fronts and bass from the sub IF fronts are Large.

what you are implying is that the fronts are large but the bass is being sent to the sub anyway.

how do you know this? did you use a tool or is this by ear? if by ear, how can you realistically isolate the exact sounds coming from the fronts from the bass coming from the sub? especially since the sub is also playing the artificially created bass for the surrounds & center? it all would seem to come from the same spot, being non-directional at < 80 Hz.? I have a hard time understanding how you reached this conclusion without measurements? if you did do them, OK.

then

> what you may be experiencing is an effect from the surround processing doing "something" with the L/R bass, not the crossover

OR

are you reporting the results from what you had me do, which is turn the Fronts to Small, the Sub Off in the menu, then switching the Sub off? because if this is your test, then the sub is not really Off in the menu, it can't be, the receiver will change it to On or your fronts to Small. and you either lose bass because your sub is un-powered or it's producing bass you thought should go to the fronts, because the fronts are really set to Small or the Sub is really set to On, in which case, its' working exactly the way it should, taking bass from the fronts and sending it to the sub.
Edited by ss9001 - 4/2/13 at 1:08pm
post #3757 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

DPLII creates content from the stereo channels and sends it to the center and surrounds. When playing test tones, if it's a mono tone present in both channels, ALL of the sound will end up in the center channel (that's how matrixing work: if a sound is present at the same level in both channels and both channels are in phase, DPL routes that sound to the center channel).

With the center set to small, MCACC would then route all of the bass from the center to the mains (sub "off") or to the sub (sub "on").

This completely explains what you were hearing, and why changing to stereo cured it.

Thank you!! smile.gif
Edited by ss9001 - 4/2/13 at 1:12pm
post #3758 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

nope, just the receivers, external amps wouldn't make a difference. Sorry I meant Receiver not amp

on the part I bolded. no, I didn't say that. What I said was I tried Dolby PLIIx instead of Direct mode to show if another processing mode could somehow override turning MCACC off and result in lost bass from the fronts set as Large - it doesn't smile.gifExcept you did, Changing surround modes did not cause your bass to be redirected from the fronts to the sub AS IF YOU CHANGED YOUR FRONTS TO SMALL LIKE IT DOES ON MY RECEIVER

of course it would make a difference to your total bass response from the fronts & sub. I can't see how you could think otherwise confused.gif the bass that would normally go to the surrounds & center will to your fronts or fronts + sub! I have no idea what you think I'm thinking? When using a surround mode of course the bass from the center and rears will be sent to the sub and fronts. This is my problem......The bass is getting sent to the sub only but not only that, the bass from my fronts also goes to the sub even when set to large.....That is wrong and not what I want.....Bass from fronts and bass from sub is what I want just like you get.

I think you still may not be getting the whole MCACC / bass management picture..I do but what you don't get is that my receiver is not working like it should

and I have no idea what you now are bringing to the discussion because you haven't mentioned it before now. all you have posted was If you mean about stereo and surround modes then it was in response to rdclark's comment and your reply to that post

1) you thought the fronts were losing bass from the crossover Not so much lost but redirected solely to the sub as if my fronts had been set to small when using a surround mode. They sound fine when in stereo
2) you thought the surround & center bass would only come from the sub Where did I ever say that? I never thats when.

in #2 you were definitely wrong Not when I never said it I'm not

and in #1, I don't see how it can be. mine aren't! and my receivers are identical to yours in MCACC functionality. I may be using REW, which I don't (I use Velodyne for bass measurements & plan on eventually getting XTZ or Omnimic) but I don't believe you are interpreting your results in the way MCACC works. first, it's "you go by hearing", and your lost bass. then it's bass from center & surrounds. now, it's results on REW graphs rolleyes.gif which is it? what is the real problem? what are you really trying to prove or disprove. I spent nearly 2 hrs of my time responding to you, explaining things to you & taking time to actually try YOUR settings and proved that you are wrong in your conclusion. where are we going now? wink.gifPlease go back and re-read all my posts, I dont use REW but if I had a mic so I could use it then I would show you comparison graphs of my front speakers with the different sub settings (NO / ON / PLUS) so you can see with your own eyes that the bass is being cut off. I dont need a graph because I can hear it where as you cannot therefore a graph would show the drop off when using either the ON or PLUS setting

if you are of the belief that the sub and sub only will be doing bass from the center & surrounds, you are mistaken! smile.gif the manual even says this...that bass will be sent to both the sub AND speakers set to Large. that is the way it works, that's the way it has always worked. if you are in Stereo, and fronts set to Large, then sub will only be used if Plus is used. it will only come on if surround processing is applied to create the sub output, with 2 ch sources. Again I never said any of this, I will explain again at the end of this post

and Plus will mean the sub is on & producing bass EVEN IF all speakers are Large, the fronts are Large or you are playing 2 channel source and staying in Stereo.

yes, you can show me all your graphs, but that won't matter if you are misinterpreting them or not clearly adequately explaining wink.gif your setup. all I know is I disagree with your 2 conclusions! Strongly! biggrin.gif and I have the proof from many years of measuring the bass & playing test tones wink.gifDidn'y say I had graphs to show you, I said I would IF I had a mic or SPL meter

you can continue to believe whatever you'd like, doesn't matter to me at all.

at this point, my interest is in disproving misleading statements for new owners or giving people a false or misleading idea of how it works.

as to your results, well, I can only say, you are free to interpret them any way you like but that doesn't mean your blanket statements about crossovers & how you'd like Pioneer's bass management to work is the way it really works. if you expect only the sub to play the bass from Small speakers, you will be disappointed wink.giftongue.gif

I swear people aren't reading what I'm typing lol so I'll quote my original first post. This is what happens when using any surround mode (not stereo / direct / pure direct) with a stereo source and with the sub unplugged at the wall so I'm only hearing my speakers (just to make things clearer)
Quote:
This is how it works for me and I'm not that happy about it in all honesty (VSX-1018)

Fronts are set to large (Kef Q55's)
Rest set to small
Crossover set to 80hz

Sub set to OFF gives my fronts all the bass and they sound great
Sub set to ON cuts the bass from my fronts to what I'm guessing is the crossover setting, Sub only works for LFE
Sub set to PLUS cuts the bass from the fronts the same as when set to ON and Sub now provides both bass and LFE

Why the hell is the crossover setting messing with my fronts when they are set to large! Every time I turn the sub off of an evening not to annoy next door I have to go and change the sub setting to off so I can get the fronts running as they should.

Again, When it's just playing back in stereo the sub setting has no effect and the front speakers sound great and produce a full response.. The only time the bass is taken from the Fronts is when I use a surround mode or manually set them to small. Again this should not happen as you have tested and found, you yourself said your front speakers output the same frequencies in surround mode regardless of the sub setting.

@ rdclark
Quote:
DPLII creates content from the stereo channels and sends it to the center and surrounds. When playing test tones, if it's a mono tone present in both channels, ALL of the sound will end up in the center channel (that's how matrixing work: if a sound is present at the same level in both channels and both channels are in phase, DPL routes that sound to the center channel).

With the center set to small, MCACC would then route all of the bass from the center to the mains (sub "off") or to the sub (sub "on").

This completely explains what you were hearing, and why changing to stereo cured it.

Yes I know how it works but the source is always stereo so it's not that.

Again (I like this word lol)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5b_fikmGLFY#!
If I listen to this track with my sub powered OFF and setup using these settings then this is what happens IN SURROUND MODE

Fronts are set to large
Rest set to small
Crossover set to 80hz

Sub set to OFF gives my fronts all the bass they should and they sound great
Sub set to ON cuts the bass from my fronts to what I'm guessing is the crossover setting,
Sub set to PLUS cuts the bass from the fronts the same as when set to ON

Now if I keep the same settings but listen in STEREO then I get all the bass from the fronts regardless of the sub setting exactly like I should be.

ss9001, just noticed more replies while typing this..... I can't keep up with posts lol so bear with me :P
Edited by spookywillow - 4/2/13 at 1:11pm
post #3759 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by spookywillow View Post


@ rdclark
Yes I know how it works but the source is always stereo so it's not that.

No, it is that. DPLII is designed to function on stereo sources exactly as I described. If you were in DPLII mode, as you said you were, then this completely explains what you described.
post #3760 of 5334
But the tones were not MONO......they were stereo and I do know what you are trying to say but the tones did not all end up in just the center channel.. I'm not an idiot lol On top of that what you are suggesting would also apply to the youtube video i linked
post #3761 of 5334
So what was the difference between the left channel and the right channel in these tones?
post #3762 of 5334
How would you guys set your speaker settings with RF-52's, Accoustech pl-26 center, klipschrw-12d with pioneer sc-1522k? right now i have the fronts to large and sub to plus 80hz xo and love it but it is a tad bit boomy. Any suggestions? also how do i know if my subwoofer is THX select 2 standard?
post #3763 of 5334
spooky

I'm about to throw in the towel on you. I was going to delete my 2 posts because they seemed un-needed with rdclark's reply but I can see you aren't convinced. and that you won't be convinced even tho there is overwhelming hard evidence from experienced people on the table.

I don't know what it will take to convince you. I did your tests to the letter, even going beyond them, and proved that all bass gets sent to the fronts in stereo. I did check the test tones with PLIIx and MCACC on & off and I do not hear what you claim is occurring. I still get 20-30 Hz bass from the fronts. and my test tones are certainly mono in nature, coming equally from both channels.

as I said, you can believe whatever you like but you haven't convinced me that your claim of crossover effecting the fronts is true. it doesn't seem to for me and the only difference is you are applying surround processing which changes the bass re-direction. maybe you are correct that some of the bass is getting sent to the sub using surround...but I think rdclark's explanation is close to the truth. unfortunately, by this time, your posts seem to be adding more & more caveats & conditions to your results. it's genuinely hard to know what exactly are you basing your assumptions. if you had laid it all out at the beginning, conditions, modes, everything...it would be different. also, I'm being nitpicky but you did say you don't go by measurements per se but by ear. and then you bring up measurements. if you are making such bold claims by ear alone, that is ridiculous...how could you possibly know what the crossover is doing to the speakers and sending to the sub. I couldn't because the sub and the speakers are close together. bass at that low freq is non-directional, so how are you able to distinguish what's coming from a sub and what's coming from a speaker?? unless you use measurements which you refuted in the beginning.

we don't know...and you don't know, so that's why I jumped all over your posts. people who make bold claims that there's a "problem" with how something works need to be able to prove it, especially when others have different results & can logically explain them.

for the record, I will try one more test, using PLIIx the way you seem to be and turning MCACC on & off and turning the sub on & off. If turning the sub on & off makes the 20-30 hz tones disappear, l'll let you know. but if it doesn't, then it doesn't and you'll have to look at the options for your reasons.

I really dislike it when people make these kind of claims, refuse to accept contrary evidence then still insist they are right wink.gif If I am wrong, then I'll say so and you can be proud you were right. otherwise...I'm done with your posts smile.gif

stay tuned
Edited by ss9001 - 4/2/13 at 1:48pm
post #3764 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

So what was the difference between the left channel and the right channel in these tones?

I don't know, you will probably hate me for this but I was just using these tones as I can't be bothered to dig out my tones cd lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Yvn8h-bRs either way as you can tell it's in stereo and does NOT just come out of the center speaker as it would if it was only MONO.

What you guys are saying is that my FRONTS should still produce all the bass from either youtube link if I listen in stereo or surround mode providing my FRONTS are set to LARGE.....REGARDLESS of the sub setting in MCACC

What I'm saying is that I only get bass from my fronts when I listen in stereo or I listen in surround mode and manually set the sub to NO in MCACC
post #3765 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

So what was the difference between the left channel and the right channel in these tones?

there wouldn't be even in stereo wink.gif but good idea asking smile.gif
post #3766 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

^^^ with my setup, all speakers to Large, and Sub setting to "yes", Xover at 80 my whole house shakes in THX Cinema. i can't imagine what sub setting is "plus" woud be like. i am not kidding, in dark knight rises, when "the bat" flies out from the alley way, the whole house shakes like it's earth quake.

The first time I watched that scene, my avr cut out (went into protection mode). Must have been a little too much draw on the amps.
post #3767 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

spooky

I'm throwing in the towel. I was about to delete my 2 posts because they seemed un-needed with rdclark's reply but I can see you aren't convinced. and that you won't be convinced even tho there is overwhelming hard evidence from experienced people on the table.

I don't know what it will take to convince you. I did your tests to the letter, even going beyond them, and proved that all bass gets sent to the fronts in stereo. I did check the test tones with PLIIx and MCACC on & off and I do not hear what you claim is occurring. I still get 20-30 Hz bass from the fronts.

as I said, you can believe whatever you like but you haven't convinced me that your claim of crossover is effecting the fronts is true. it doesn't for me, and the only difference is you are applying surround processing which changes the bass re-direction. maybe you are correct that some of the bass is getting sent to the sub using surround...but I think rdclark's explanation is closer to the truth.

we don't know...and you don't know, so that's why I jumped all over your posts. people who make bold claims that there's a "problem" with how something works need to be able to prove it, especially when others have different results.

for the record, I will try one more test, using PLIIx the way you seem to be and turning MCACC on & off and turning the sub on & off. If turning the sub on & off makes the 20-30 hz tones disappear, l'll let you know. but if it doesn't, then it doesn't and you'll have to look at the options for your reasons.

I really dislike it when people make these kind of claims, refute contrary evidence and then still insist they are right wink.gif If I am wrong, then I'll say so and you can be proud you were right. otherwise...I'm done with your posts smile.gif

My god man did you not read my last post where I re-explained it all? Turning MCACC on and off will make no difference as it does not change the speaker settings when it's off or on!

I'm not saying you don't get the bass when you try my settings....what I'm saying is that I, ME , MYSELF am not getting the bass from my fronts with the settings I posted....jeez.

So like what I just posted still stands
Quote:
What you guys are saying is that my FRONTS should still produce all the bass from either youtube link if I listen in stereo or surround mode providing my FRONTS are set to LARGE.....REGARDLESS of the sub setting in the speaker setting in MCACC
What I'm saying is that I only get bass from my fronts when I listen in stereo or I listen in surround mode and manually set the sub to NO in MCACC

So if this is whats happening then clearly I have a fault on my amp as it's not doing what it should be which is why pioneer are calling me back tomorrow for.
post #3768 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by spookywillow View Post


What I'm saying is that I only get bass from my fronts when I listen in stereo or I listen in surround mode and manually set the sub to NO in MCACC

When you listen in stereo, DPL is not doing anything.

When you use DPL, DPL sends signal to the center and surrounds, but because they are set to "small," the bass is redirected to the fronts. That's why you get bass in the fronts under those two conditions.

It has nothing to do with MCACC and everything to do with using DPL. Your system is working the way it's supposed to.

I'm done now.
post #3769 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

When you listen in stereo, DPL is not doing anything. Obviously

When you use DPL, DPL sends signal to the center and surrounds, but because they are set to "small," the bass is redirected to the fronts. That's why you get bass in the fronts under those two conditions. Problem is if you read my posts is that I DO NOT GET THE BASS AT THE FRONTS WHEN SET TO SURROUND UNLESS I MANUALLY SET THE SUB TO NO

It has nothing to do with MCACC and everything to do with using DPL. Your system is working the way it's supposed to. No it's not as ss9001 gets full bass from his fronts if he plays back in stereo or surround whereas I only get bass from the fronts as described in previous posts

I'm done now.

Damn what the hell are you on about! Just please confirm this statement
Quote:
What you guys are saying is that my FRONTS should still produce all the bass from either youtube link if I listen in stereo or surround mode providing my FRONTS are set to LARGE.....REGARDLESS of the sub setting in the speaker setting in MCACC
post #3770 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by horseflesh View Post

I'll try to explain.

When I experiment with the Small and Large settings and sub settings, this is what I observe.

Small all around, bass to Sub: Sounds OK, but there seems to be less happening in the low end. The sub is not putting out the lowest frequencies that it can.

Large fronts, bass set to Plus: I hear much deeper sounds, not just louder bass... but I also hear some boominess/muddiness.

Did you re-run MCACC with the new speaker settings? Try changing Phase control or standing wave or possibly your phase is incorrect on your sub. I get boomy muddy bass when Phase control is turned off. It could also be down to the sub location, tried moving it about a bit?
Edited by spookywillow - 4/2/13 at 2:36pm
post #3771 of 5334
Enjoying the conversation, hope everyone contributing takes it all lightly. I think we all just want to understand how/what MCACC does/doesn't do. Myself I agree that I have also never seen any documentation from pioneer as to what MCACC completely does. I don't think we will ever know as Im sure this is proprietary to Pioneer.

Also a unknown signal source can cause confusion. Its best to use a known good signal source. Like a test disc. Not only to produce the proper signal frequency. But also to produce the signal to the proper channels.

Funny there is some additional clues on the europe site. Just take a look at the air studio video. About 9 mins long.

Smarter speaker calibration
Often, speakers for surround sound can’t be ideally positioned. MCACC therefore analyses the existing sound field using a custom microphone (included), just like a sound professional. It then adjusts each speaker’s virtual size, level, distance, and response to precision-tune the system to your room.

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/page/products/av-receiver/features.html

If you click on this video from the above link. There will be several videos to choose from. Select the air studios video for some additional info. Im not saying it will answer all your questions. But will give some insight into what went into creating the MCACC calibration.

I can see that Pioneer and the air studio engineers spent countless hours perfecting MCACC. I think most of us can agree that these AVRs with advance MCACC greatly improve your listening environment. Look at any thread on this forum concerning a pioneer AVR with advanced MCACC and you read comments. Including myself that state. WoW, my speakers have never sounded better. Im hearing sounds from my speakers I haven't heard before, etc, etc....

For me I didn't adjust any settings in MCACC after it completed its calibration. I only tried each DSP Mode till I found one to my liking. I also experimented by turning various features on/off. To me it did an awesome job on my room. I am very happy with the sound. MCACC set all my speakers to large, sub on and crossover at 80. I noticed that when playing music from cable. Its a dolby digital 2 channel input signal. I like DPL II Music the best so that is what I use. I noticed that even though my I pad states that the signal is processed to 5.1 channels. I do not get any signal output from my sub. I know this because the sub and the signal transmitter both go into sleep mode. I don't even turn the sub or the transmitter on anymore when listening to music via cable company. I can tell you that my speakers all set to large. Produce bass that is crisp, clear, tight and bass that i can feel on my body. At a volume level of 25. Now if I play my brother in arms SACD and turn on the sub. The sub channel is active and remains lit for the entire SACD. This is a signal source that has LFE signal included in the sound mix. Same thing if I play a BluRay movie. The actual signal source is a large part of all of this.

Nobody can say exactly what adjustments MCACC makes using the data from the mic. There is probably all kind of adjustments MCACC makes that we are unaware of. I'm guessing that there is probably a secret menu on the AVR. Most electronics have a secret menu accessed by pushing a series of button on the remote. That probably have all kinds of settings and adjustments.

Just look at this video. From performing MCACC calibration it also adjust the image quality to your distance from the screen. I'm convinced it does allot more than we know.

Smart image adjustment
Advanced Video Adjust optimises the video signal according to your type of screen or projector. Based on MCACC calibration data, it also adjusts image quality to your distance from the screen.
post #3772 of 5334
Opps, too late....

I would verify your youtube source signal. That may be the culprit.
post #3773 of 5334
It's not the source, It does the same with my FLAC files, Music channels on SKY and every other stereo source I have.. I just used the youtube links so anyone that tried my settings are using the same source. No matter anyway, ss9001 has provided me with what I need to know so I will wait for Pioneers call tomorrow.
post #3774 of 5334
spooky

I can tell all of our patience is getting a mite short or tempers heated! one of the 2 wink.gif

I did another test and on the surface I can duplicate what you now say you get smile.gif I will say this, it's hard to explain every condition when you 1st started posting but it really would have helped if you had wink.gif because what seemed like convoluted statements eventually became clear under what circumstance you lose bass. I thought you meant stereo all along because the file was 2 ch (or mono wink.gif), you didn't mention using surround processing. I could have done this with PLIIx earlier today had I known.

before I comment further, I'd like to check something on how the center gets derived. because I have an idea of another rational explanation for this.

rdclark I think may be on to part of it but I'd like to be more sure. I will say, on fhe surface, it does appear that the crossover effects Large speakers but I'm not prepared yet to take that to the bank as the reason. mostly because it kind of defies logic why it would be implemented that way...if you take it to a logical conclusion, there would be no need for a Large setting at all!

as far as your comment about Phase Control, if its muddy with it off, that makes sense. its supposed to help NOT make it muddy by time aligning bass frequencies with the others and the Full Band setting even does time alignment of all freq's. it works by equalizing the delay time for all freq's to arrive at the mic position, by increasing the delay time (group delay).

I'll get back to this asap and when I feel confident I can explain your results.

stay tuned.
post #3775 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

spooky

I can tell all of our patience is getting a mite short or tempers heated! one of the 2 wink.gif

I did another test and on the surface I can duplicate what you now say you get smile.gifI will say this, it's hard to explain every condition when you 1st started posting but it really would have helped if you had wink.gif because what seemed like convoluted statements eventually became clear under what circumstance you lose bass.

before I comment further, I'd like to check something on how the center gets derived. because I have an idea of another rational explanation for this.

rdclark I think is on to it but I'd like to be more sure. I will say, on fhe surface, it does appear that the crossover effects Large speakers but I'm not prepared yet to take that to the bank as the reason. mostly because it kind of defies logic why it would be implemented that way...if you take it to a logical conclusion, there would be no need for a Large setting at all!

as far as your comment about Phase Control, if its muddy with it off, that makes sense. its supposed to help NOT make it muddy by time aligning bass frequencies with the others and the Full Band setting even does time alignment of all freq's. it works by equalizing the delay time for all freq's to arrive at the mic position, by increasing the delay time (group delay).

I'll get back to this asap and when I feel confident I can explain your results.

stay tuned.

Ok thanks wink.gif I did explain and reading back I still can't see what the problem was lol, it was only when rdclark mentioned the surround modes that things started changing but even then I still explained the situation but no worries....we're at least on the same page now biggrin.gif

So now your saying you get the same results as me and that you also lose bass from the fronts under my settings? I sure hope so lol

Thats exactly what I mean with the crossover like I said before, turning on the sub option when using a surround mode makes my large front speakers act like they are set to small and all bass below the crossover is sent to the sub which is not what it should do and as you say defies the point of having a large setting when the sub option is enabled.

I'll have a play tomorrow and try some stuff
Edited by spookywillow - 4/2/13 at 3:31pm
post #3776 of 5334
I did this config every which way under the sun over the last few days...

here it is for me

Front- Large
Center- Small
Sub- Plus(xOver 50hz)

this set up, along with a lot of other detailed tweaking, sounds the best in my home with fronts that are good down to 35hz.

I get superb detail and FULL RANGE delivery that is very deep(foundation shaking) and sparkling on top.

I think pioneer should have named the choices Wide/Thin instead of large/small.
post #3777 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmurray716 View Post

The first time I watched that scene, my avr cut out (went into protection mode). Must have been a little too much draw on the amps.

what kind of speakers do you have. and how loud were you playing them. i had mine at -30 ~ -27 and it shook the house big time.
post #3778 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by spookywillow View Post

I'll have a play tomorrow and try some stuff

same here.

will post more tomorrow. I want to see how low bass comes out when in Direct mode on a straight Dolby Digital disc, turning off the sub (LFE track) and hear what comes out of the fronts. I have a low bass DVD-A where I think some of the bass comes out of the fronts. I always play it in Direct mode so no IIx processing added.

I think we're hearing the results of the decoder at work not necessarily the crossover. I say that because this afternoon...

the least volume of 30 hz was in PLIIx Movie, PLIIx Game, and PL modes on 2 ch test tone disc
there was a lot more volume of 30 hz in PLIIx Music mode
and still more in Stereo mode

if this was just the action of the crossover, there should be no difference in 30 hz bass levels between the Movie & Music modes. so the decoder is playing a big role in handling the bass. I don't know why at this point.

Someone like Roger Dressler & Jim Fosgate, forum members who worked at Dolby in developing Dolby Surround & the various forms of it would be the people to explain what is going on with the decoder handling bass direction & levels.

I'm enjoying my system tonight, instead of figuring out how it works wink.gif
post #3779 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by horseflesh View Post

I'll try to explain.

When I experiment with the Small and Large settings and sub settings, this is what I observe.

Small all around, bass to Sub: Sounds OK, but there seems to be less happening in the low end. The sub is not putting out the lowest frequencies that it can.

Large fronts, bass set to Plus: I hear much deeper sounds, not just louder bass... but I also hear some boominess/muddiness.


I think you are getting a bass boost around the xo frequency and that may explained the boominess. Going for maximal bass output from a system does not equate to the best sound. If one has capable equipment, maximal bass output is not necessary and system synergy with a smooth bass response is a better choice.

Thanks ss9001 for steering the MCACC discussion back to facts and not guessing.
post #3780 of 5334
@horseflesh: I tend to agree with derrickdj1 implied: what you are hearing is likely interaction among the sub and mains -- and room. Most likely you need to adjust the sub's position for optimal bass at the LP in your room. Measurement makes that much easier...

General comment: There is a trend among people to equate loud 50 - 100 Hz signals as bass, when in fact most of what a sub puts out is felt rather than "heard". We've gotten used to unrealistically high upper bass signals, and missing out on the really low stuff.
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