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"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 129

post #3841 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Rockford View Post

Now that all the tinkering is done with... what the heck am I going to do with my time!?

Enjoy the audio side of your system would be my first recommendation smile.gif then I started thinking eek.gif what about the video side rolleyes.gif
post #3842 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Soon you will become restless, then dissatisfied, and then you will have another wonderful adventure.

that's the truth wink.gifbiggrin.gif
post #3843 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Rockford View Post

Interesting mic discussions going on.

So before I re-ran MCACC I disabled. This time around I was able to get all of the fullness of the large speaker setting prior, and then also managed to remove the bit of boom and bloat that was there as well.

Just to make sure I have this right... this would be only something to try if you have front speakers with built in subs in addition to a separate sub?
post #3844 of 5322
As a general starting point rule, whatever your setup, if the subwoofer is connected to the AVR's subwoofer line out, then the subwoofer crossover should be disabled or set to its highest setting, since the AVR is taking care of it. Crossover are not brick walls, and if you have two, they compound each other and that can give undesirable results, as Jim discovered.

Dan.
post #3845 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post

I agree. I can only report on my own experience using the gear, which happens to be in lock step with exactly that as a theory. I draw no conclusions outside of that.

My experience is that the Pioneer doesn't emphasize high frequencies at all. In fact, I find the opposite - that it's a very dull sounding receiver. Also, when mics have poor high frequency response, it's not a sharp cutoff, it's simply down a few db and as someone else posted, Pioneer likely corrects for that because they know the frequency response of the mic. So let's say Pioneer knows that their cheap mic is down 3db at 10KHz. And let's say when the test tones are run, you have a lot of curtains in the room and the 10KHz response comes in at -7db. They would EQ it +4db, not +7db. They're not idiots.

The other factor is that it's amazing how good cheap mics are today. 30 years ago, a $50 mic (the equivalent of about $117 today) would you give you something that sounded like the mic used by a taxi dispatcher. I just bought a mic/headset to make software training videos and spent only about $45 (with the mic obviously being only a portion of that) and the frequency response is absolutely great! It might not be flat, but it sounds great with crisp, clean highs. Obviously, a $3200 Neumann mic would sound far better, but for value per dollar, it's really quite amazing. So that "cheap" mic that comes with the Pioneer (or any receiver) might actually be pretty good.

And I'm no Pioneer fanboy. I actually don't like the sound of my receiver (SC-55) very much, but the microphone response has nothing to do with it.

Also, we had decades of audio in which most people didn't EQ the room at all and those systems managed to still sound great - IMO, in many cases far better than these more sophisticated systems sound today. Somehow we got by. The difference of a few db at various frequencies isn't necessarily going to make a room sound worse - in some cases, it will make it sound better.
post #3846 of 5322
^^
very thoughtful reply and I think you make sense. similar to what I've been "preaching" anyway - common sense wink.gif

"They're not idiots."

amazing how some seem to think or say they think they are. I actually have a white paper, which I'll attach written, by Pioneer engineers on the issue of phase & integrating subwoofers. it's a treatise & is the basis for their developing their Phase Control feature. that bit of Pioneer technology does make a difference.

in this white paper, they do discuss how bass management is done, with the LFE cutoff of 120 Hz and heavily implies they are doing bass mgmt correctly, contrary to what some folks in this thread "think" is going on with Pioneer throwing away freq's between their global Xover and 120 Hz. why would they write about the correct way if they aren't doing it themselves?

AES28PhaseCTL.pdf 694k .pdf file
post #3847 of 5322
My Christmas tree was just to the left of my left front speaker, and I just took it down. Should I re-run MCACC?
post #3848 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

It might not be flat, but it sounds great with crisp, clean highs. Obviously, a $3200 Neumann mic would sound far better, but for value per dollar, it's really quite amazing.

And I'm no Pioneer fanboy. I actually don't like the sound of my receiver (SC-55) very much, but the microphone response has nothing to do with it.
.

The value of a $3200 mic can only be measured by its intended use. For a $1000 recievers calibration, I agree it is diminishing returns. Tracking vocals (it's intended use), a mic like that often saves $3200 worth of your time otherwise trying to "fix" something recorded with a $100 mic. Anyone who has done mastering of tracks rock bands have recorded in their own garage with a laptop will know the truth of that.

I overall like the sound of my SC-65, however the jury is still out since I implemented an Emotiva amp across the front 3. Pioneer's class D amps IMO are lovely and quite underrated. If only they made them more powerful. Mores the pity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
very thoughtful reply and I think you make sense. similar to what I've been "preaching" anyway - common sense wink.gif

"They're not idiots."

amazing how some seem to think or say they think they are. I actually have a white paper, which I'll attach written, by Pioneer engineers on the issue of phase & integrating subwoofers. it's a treatise & is the basis for their developing their Phase Control feature. that bit of Pioneer technology does make a difference.

in this white paper, they do discuss how bass management is done, with the LFE cutoff of 120 Hz and heavily implies they are doing bass mgmt correctly, contrary to what some folks in this thread "think" is going on with Pioneer throwing away freq's between their global Xover and 120 Hz. why would they write about the correct way if they aren't doing it themselves?

AES28PhaseCTL.pdf 694k .pdf file

In my defense, I never said they were, or even remotely suggested that they are idiots. What I said was that the unit is built to a price point, and as such including a better mic, in addition to perhaps a cardiod electret condenser to capture more accurate first wave response would increase that price point in a way that most average users would not appreciate. Heck, even a feature where you could enter your speaker's frequency response specs into MCACC's formulas would be a better system than using a mic with such high frequency directionality and then relying on manufacturing consistency of said $2 mic to give an accurate measurement (perhaps the reason many of our experiences are all over the board).

Nope, they are undoubtedly bright guys who are unfortunately restrained by their average market demographic.
post #3849 of 5322
FWIWFM, that Neumann is not very flat... Most of their mics are designed to provide the sound the recording engineers/performers want, and not a flat response. My cheapo $1200 earthworks measurement mic is much flatter than my friend's pair of $5200 Neumanns, but the Neumanns sound better on vocals and jazz groups.
post #3850 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

My Christmas tree was just to the left of my left front speaker, and I just took it down. Should I re-run MCACC?

i tend to rerun mine every few months just to get it re calibrated to some of the household furniture changes.
post #3851 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by info_dan View Post

As a general starting point rule, whatever your setup, if the subwoofer is connected to the AVR's subwoofer line out, then the subwoofer crossover should be disabled or set to its highest setting, since the AVR is taking care of it. Crossover are not brick walls, and if you have two, they compound each other and that can give undesirable results, as Jim discovered.

Dan.

Thanks. Have the VTF-15H from HSU who provided pre-setup settings for anyone using room correction with the sub connected to the receivers subwoofer jack. I took a look at those settings and noticed they emphasized setting the Crossover Switch to 'Out' which bypasses the crossover frequency, so apparently that was good advice... something I didn't know at the time. In the post-setup recommendations, it says if you change the Crossover Switch to 'In', set the frequency knob to it's maximun (90Hz). But if the sub sounds too "boomy", disable the crossover again.
post #3852 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

FWIWFM, that Neumann is not very flat... Most of their mics are designed to provide the sound the recording engineers/performers want, and not a flat response. My cheapo $1200 earthworks measurement mic is much flatter than my friend's pair of $5200 Neumanns, but the Neumanns sound better on vocals and jazz groups.

I agree. I was mainly using it in my example because Neumann has a cool interactive frequency response chart which does well to show the high frequency directionality of omni mics.

I've never worked with any earthworks mics personally, but I know a couple guys who swear by them as overheads. My favorite overhead setups, which I use often as a stereo pair are either either Blue Kiwis or Royer R-122's (my "desert island" mic).
post #3853 of 5322
bought and beginning to setup SC-1522.
1- is summary workflow in first post, is the right process to follow? Any other post has a better or updated workflow? Please let me know anything i need to different than what is mentioned in first post..
2- i also read something about mic being of cheap quality. i have access to mics that comes with HK AVR 254, AVR 2650 and the one that comes with Denon 2113CI. Would it benefit if i use any of these mics? Which one?
3- i come from HK 254 and recently upgraded to HK 2650 (will return if i like SC-1522). I would LOVE TO like SC-1522, as it has bells and whistles that HK 2650 does not have. But I found HK 2650 sound amazing compared to Pio 1522 after first Auto MCACC run and twekaing X-curve. I will reserve judgement on SC-1522 till after I perform all recommended tweaks and rerun as recommended. But any hopes or thoughts please?

thanks in advance...

Adding some details on my setup.
Full Energy RC setup - RC70 fronts, RC-LCR, RC10s surrounds (on floor), Mirage Prestige 8" sub. Living in an apartment.
Carpet on floor, glass and plain walls around.
Edited by rajdori - 4/8/13 at 3:37pm
post #3854 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdori View Post

bought and beginning to setup SC-1522.
1- is summary workflow in first post, is the right process to follow? Any other post has a better or updated workflow? Please let me know anything i need to different than what is mentioned in first post..
2- i also read something about mic being of cheap quality. i have access to mics that comes with HK AVR 254, AVR 2650 and the one that comes with Denon 2113CI. Would it benefit if i use any of these mics? Which one?
3- i come from HK 254 and recently upgraded to HK 2650 (will return if i like SC-1522). I would LOVE TO like SC-1522, as it has bells and whistles that HK 2650 does not have. But I found HK 2650 sound amazing compared to Pio 1522 after first Auto MCACC run and twekaing X-curve. I will reserve judgement on SC-1522 till after I perform all recommended tweaks and rerun as recommended. But any hopes or thoughts please?

thanks in advance...

you know what would be an interesting test for you to do. do two separate MCACC calibration one based on the stock Mic, and one with a better Mic and report back and let us know which sound better. that'll be an interesting thing to do since Pioneer has 6 memory slots for users to play with.
post #3855 of 5322
^^^ oh and... if you don't mind testing out the 9.1 setup with your 1522 that'll be really awesome. i am just wondering if in PLIIz Height mode it really indeed produce 9 discreet channels at the same time. smile.gif
post #3856 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Rockford View Post

disable the sub x-over and use only the SSP built-in x-over.
HOW did you do that?
post #3857 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by GusGus748s View Post

Wow, there is a lot of complaining for MCACC calibration. I bought a SC-1222-K receiver, which was replace by a SC-1522-K due to the CostCo $599.99 deal. I ran MCACC, and I followe this PDF file created by javygonx, and my surround sound sounds excellent to MY LIKING!!!

Once again, here is the link to the PDF file. You can try it and see how you like it. This is mainly for increasing the bass.

https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/MCACC_SUB_EQ_1_3.pdf?w=AAB0FiOPS8lzyTHQG7scw2oWKG6Do0qwn5iis3yeBWvfqg
even after logging into DropBox before clicking on above link, it does not work for me? can someone just attach the file?
post #3858 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdori View Post

HOW did you do that?

if the sub has no internal feature to disable Xover, just turn the Xover knob all the way up to the highest point, provided if your'e running line level output to the sub, MCACC should take control of global Xover.
post #3859 of 5322
You don't need a high-quality mic for calibration, you just need to know how to compensate for the mic's frequency response. Just use the mic that comes with the receiver. Calibrated and/or high-quality mics matter when you have a stand-alone measurement system, or making a recording, of course. Do get a tripod if you don't already have one as it makes a huge difference in accuracy and repeatability.
post #3860 of 5322
DDPLIIz channels are not discrete. They are matrix channel.
post #3861 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

if the sub has no internal feature to disable Xover, just turn the Xover knob all the way up to the highest point, provided if your'e running line level output to the sub, MCACC should take control of global Xover.
my sub has x-over bypass, and i know how to set that. but anything special do i need to do at Pioneer end., to tell it to set x-over?
post #3862 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdori View Post

even after logging into DropBox before clicking on above link, it does not work for me? can someone just attach the file?

How about now?

https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/MCACC_SUB_EQ_1_3.pdf?w=AAB0FiOPS8lzyTHQG7scw2oWKG6Do0qwn5iis3yeBWvfqg

or this one?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wcvouknssbseg0m/MCACC_SUB_EQ_1_3.pdf
post #3863 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajdori View Post

my sub has x-over bypass, and i know how to set that. but anything special do i need to do at Pioneer end., to tell it to set x-over?

bypass the sub's internal xover or set it to its highest setting
plug the pioneer sub out to sub's LFE input
on pioneer side, nothing to do except set its Xover to desired freq

thats it
post #3864 of 5322
Indeed... as long as the subs x over is set a bit higher than the pioneers x over, you're good... account for roll off.
post #3865 of 5322
post #3866 of 5322
post #3867 of 5322
Silly question. Thinking of getting a closeout VSX-822-K. Does the MCACC adjust EQ as well as speaker distance and levels? The manual does not really say and there are no manual EQ adjustments like YPAO offers on the Yamaha RX-V375. The price seems really good on the 822 right now.
post #3868 of 5322
Subscribed
post #3869 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike View Post

Silly question. Thinking of getting a closeout VSX-822-K. Does the MCACC adjust EQ as well as speaker distance and levels?

Yes. After a calibration run, you can adjust EQ sliders to change MCACC's decisions.
post #3870 of 5322
Found where Pioneer says 5 band eq for MCACC.

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