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"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 133

post #3961 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by info_dan View Post

Good question... I guess nobody can answer that without actually testing or being a Pioneer Engineer (and specifying the AVR model....)
Are you talking in general? Then no, for Large speakers, frequencies below crossover are NOT dumped to the sub (Unless Plus is engaged). And you can't "set" crossover in an on/off sense, you can only select the frequency value. For small speakers, frequencies below the crossover value are always redirected, either to the sub, or to other large speakers when you don't have a sub.

If you're talking about the LFE channel, then it gets routed to the sub (and filtered by Xover when I tested it on the SC-07). If you don't have a sub, I would assume the LFE gets routed to large speakers, but I have not actually tested that hypothesis.

Dan.

This is where the manual is once again vague then. Reading this description, it's not so clear what it means. (Page 91 again)

X.Over

"This setting decides the cutoff between bass sounds playing back from speakers selected as LARGE, or the subwoofer and bass sounds playing back from those selected as SMALL".


Which on first reading does indeed sound like irrespective of setting them LARGE or SMALL the X.Over does cut them off at that freq ?!! Talk about confusing...

Obviously then, it still means that if you want full range LFE to go to the sub and near full range from your mains, it can't be done.

Has someone also confirmed this. If the speakers are set to LARGE and the SW Plus setting engaged, does this mean that the sub still gets everything below the X.Over freq value.

Or, based on the above quote from the manual, does it mean that with the speakers set to LARGE (and the X.Over value therefore determining what the cutoff for those LARGE speakers is), that SW Plus just duplicates the bass frequencies sent to the LARGE speakers (the description of the Plus setting does seem to suggest this 'duplication') which means that the subwoofer also doesn't play back frequencies below the X.Over ?

That wouldn't make sense but heck, who knows.

Edit: A sine wave generator has answered the question nicely smile.gif
Edited by Taggle - 5/4/13 at 1:48pm
post #3962 of 5334
Well,, this is disappointing. Now I gotta go back and rewatch all of my movies. I did confirm what was stated here recently by a few fellers, not that I questioned their knowledge. Just wanted to see with my own eyes. The LFE signal is indeed filtered by the xover setting. I had mine set to 100Hz (and earlier at 80Hz). I could see that the 150Hz-20Hz sweep was coming in differently based on xover setting. Only the 150Hz and 200Hz setting showed the topend of the sweep. The 50Hz setting had the worst effect as expected. I cannot believe Pioneer does such a thing! FWIW, I also set the fronts to large to see if the topend was routed to them, and it did not. Did not check to see if a large center got the missing freqeuncies, cuz that's not a setup I would ever have anyway. All these years I thought the LFE was untouched and send straight for the sub output (or large fronts if there was no sub). And that the xover setting was simply for small speakers/sub bass management.

My test setup for those interested...Pioneer Elite VSX-03tx, laptop running REW (RTA), PS3 playing Ultimate DVD, discrete LFE rattle track repeatedly (DD bitstream).

Guess I have another reason to try a new receiver brand. frown.gif
post #3963 of 5334
Just so I can understand correctly...it has been established that the xover affects LFE also? As in, wherever the xover is set is where the sub will start to roll off no matter how it's set up?
post #3964 of 5334
Yes, but understand the deeper problem. The discrete LFE signal is defined to go all the way up to 120Hz. So if you have the xover set to less than that, it appears Pioneer simply throws out the content above the xover point. Someone did mention that it would go to a center speaker set to large, but I did not test this. This problem is unique to the LFE discrete channel; the redirected bass from the other channels is correctly routed between sub and other speakers.
post #3965 of 5334
When this was discussed a few years ago (LFE channel frequencies above crossover being discarded), one of the point that was mentionned is that it wasn't that big a deal because those frequencies are usually also put in other channels as well at the mixing stage (one of the participant was someone who was doing film mixing in the industry; his nick was appropriately "filmmixer" if I remember correctly). This has to be done to account for systems not properly set-up, people not having a subwoofer, and all sort of other imponderables.

dan.
post #3966 of 5334
Did he specify which frequencies? Or was he simply saying that the whole lfe content is being included in other channels? If true, then yes, not too big of a deal. But I wonder how many soundtracks out there actually do have a true discrete lfe channel. Plus, I thought the lfe channel also was allowed a higher dynamic range. I wonder how they account for that with the part they duplicate in other channels.

Honestly, I wonder how Dolby/dts ever approved Pioneer's handling of LFE.
post #3967 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taggle View Post

Edit: A sine wave generator has answered the question nicely smile.gif

Wait, what's the answer? smile.gif

I've been following the thread for a while and I think I am more confused than when I started!
post #3968 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by garciab View Post

Did he specify which frequencies? Or was he simply saying that the whole lfe content is being included in other channels? If true, then yes, not too big of a deal. But I wonder how many soundtracks out there actually do have a true discrete lfe channel. Plus, I thought the lfe channel also was allowed a higher dynamic range. I wonder how they account for that with the part they duplicate in other channels.

Honestly, I wonder how Dolby/dts ever approved Pioneer's handling of LFE.

Add THX and in some cases Air Studios to the list of how did the handling of LFE get ever approved.
Yah think someone woulda challenged Pioneer. So maybe there is something we are missing.
Sure wish someone from Pioneer would share some insight here.
post #3969 of 5334
Only about 5% of the LFE content is between 80-120 Hz. This the reason some people LP the sub at 80 Hz. It was always my understanding the LFE, or .1 channel is a dedicated playback channel for movie engineers to put LF content from 120 Hz and down. Dolby LFE is normally 80 Hz and lower. It would be a mistake if setting a lower xo dumps LFE by Pioneer. It would be nice to hear from one of their engineers on this subject.
post #3970 of 5334
I've always been intrigued on this query too - can anyone contact Pioneer ?

I'd like to use 50hz crossover on my 59TXi .....

most of these Receivers are THX certified - so shouldn't be an issue - I assume THX test things like crossovers ?
post #3971 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Only about 5% of the LFE content is between 80-120 Hz. This the reason some people LP the sub at 80 Hz. It was always my understanding the LFE, or .1 channel is a dedicated playback channel for movie engineers to put LF content from 120 Hz and down. Dolby LFE is normally 80 Hz and lower. It would be a mistake if setting a lower xo dumps LFE by Pioneer. It would be nice to hear from one of their engineers on this subject.

Another reason I read for the 80Hz standard is that this is the frequency limit below which bass sounds become more or less non directional as far as human perception goes. Anything above frequency and it becomes locational..

Not sure how accurate an assessment that is though.
post #3972 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

I've always been intrigued on this query too - can anyone contact Pioneer ?

I'd like to use 50hz crossover on my 59TXi .....

most of these Receivers are THX certified - so shouldn't be an issue - I assume THX test things like crossovers ?

Well, the only way to enable your speakers at 50Hz and still get the full LFE chanel range is as follows.

Set your SW to "Plus".
Set your front speakers to LARGE
Set the X.Over to 150 Hz

With these settings the fronts will play full range and the sub will receive full LFE. Of course, what will also happen is that you will get phase/addition/cancellation issues in the frequency range where the fronts and sub are both active.

For mine this is around 100Hz, where the bass volume noticeably rises (although it's just as likely that's one of my room bass peaks)
Edited by Taggle - 5/6/13 at 7:22am
post #3973 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by garciab View Post

Well,, this is disappointing. Now I gotta go back and rewatch all of my movies. I did confirm what was stated here recently by a few fellers, not that I questioned their knowledge. Just wanted to see with my own eyes. The LFE signal is indeed filtered by the xover setting. I had mine set to 100Hz (and earlier at 80Hz). I could see that the 150Hz-20Hz sweep was coming in differently based on xover setting. Only the 150Hz and 200Hz setting showed the topend of the sweep. The 50Hz setting had the worst effect as expected. I cannot believe Pioneer does such a thing! FWIW, I also set the fronts to large to see if the topend was routed to them, and it did not. Did not check to see if a large center got the missing freqeuncies, cuz that's not a setup I would ever have anyway. All these years I thought the LFE was untouched and send straight for the sub output (or large fronts if there was no sub). And that the xover setting was simply for small speakers/sub bass management.

My test setup for those interested...Pioneer Elite VSX-03tx, laptop running REW (RTA), PS3 playing Ultimate DVD, discrete LFE rattle track repeatedly (DD bitstream).

Guess I have another reason to try a new receiver brand. frown.gif

I thought all receivers worked like this? It's the reason why it's recommended from Chris to set the LFE to 120hz. Otherwise you're throwing away information. Many disagree though.

When use to use my Onky 705, i notice a major difference in bass from using an 80hz Xover and 120hz. So i either used 80hz or 100hz for speakers and 120hz for LFE. I don't have that choice with my SC37 as we all know so i use a 100hz Xover.

Even on the Pioneer it's the same. A lower Xover doesn't sound as good and bass filled as a higher one.
post #3974 of 5334
There can be lots of reasons why your system 'sounds' better with the different crossover settings. You can't go by what you hear to determine what the receiver is doing with its bass management. That's why you have to measure the electronics directly. In the end, what you hear is the most important thing, but it's a good idea to measure too to see at least what you should be hearing.

I'm gonna have to rush home to setup my Denon to see what it does with the LFE.
Edited by garciab - 5/6/13 at 8:14am
post #3975 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by info_dan View Post

Good question... I guess nobody can answer that without actually testing or being a Pioneer Engineer (and specifying the AVR model....)
Are you talking in general? Then no, for Large speakers, frequencies below crossover are NOT dumped to the sub (Unless Plus is engaged). And you can't "set" crossover in an on/off sense, you can only select the frequency value. For small speakers, frequencies below the crossover value are always redirected, either to the sub, or to other large speakers when you don't have a sub.

If you're talking about the LFE channel, then it gets routed to the sub (and filtered by Xover when I tested it on the SC-07). If you don't have a sub, I would assume the LFE gets routed to large speakers, but I have not actually tested that hypothesis.Dan.

So if I were to set my xover to 120 and front speakers to large, all LFE would go to sub, and any frequencies on the L+R channel under 120 would also go to the large front speakers, or would anything under 120 get trimmed on the L+R channel?
This is all assuming that my Sub is set to Yes and not Plus, and fronts are set to Large as well.
Edited by Exist_To_Resist - 5/6/13 at 9:36am
post #3976 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post

So if I were to set my xover to 120 and front speakers to large, all LFE would go to sub, and any frequencies on the L+R channel under 120 would also go to the large front speakers, or would anything under 120 get trimmed on the L+R channel?
This is all assuming that my Sub is set to Yes and not Plus, and fronts are set to Large as well.

Sub set to Yes and Xover at 120 with front speakers set to large

Sub = All LFE, anything under 120 for any speaker set to small
Front = full range

Change sub to plus from above:
Sub = All LFE, Anything under 120 (for all channels)
Front = Full Range
post #3977 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post

So if I were to set my xover to 120 and front speakers to large, all LFE would go to sub, and any frequencies on the L+R channel under 120 would also go to the large front speakers, or would anything under 120 get trimmed on the L+R channel?
This is all assuming that my Sub is set to Yes and not Plus, and fronts are set to Large as well.

Nope, if you set your speakers to LARGE and sub just to YES, nothing will get routed to the sub.

If you want LARGE speakers and the sub to receive anything below the X.Over freq, you need to set it to PLUS.

At least that's how it goes with my SC-LX56. (Finger on the sub driver shows nothing at all coming though with the YES/LARGE setting, irrespective of X.Over.)

However, what I realy need to be absolutely sure is a dedicated LFE channel sweep test file/tool. Rather than just the REW freq sweep tool I am using. Anyone have any suggestions as to a piece of software that can output controllable 5.1 test tones ?
post #3978 of 5334
maybe i am missing something, but i don't know what all the fuzz is about with LFE X over cut off. the whole point of cross over, is so that it gets cut off, or rolled off. setting anything above 80, or letting the sub producing sound above that level, you're just asking for trouble, because you'll be able to pin point the direction of the sub, which i hate. if you really want to be able to pin point your sub, set it to 120, that way it won't be cut off and you can tell where it's coming from. it's simple as that, at least to me. i don't see why we're giving Pioneer such a hard time about this.
post #3979 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taggle View Post

Nope, if you set your speakers to LARGE and sub just to YES, nothing will get routed to the sub.

If you want LARGE speakers and the sub to receive anything below the X.Over freq, you need to set it to PLUS.

At least that's how it goes with my SC-LX56. (Finger on the sub driver shows nothing at all coming though with the YES/LARGE setting, irrespective of X.Over.)

However, what I realy need to be absolutely sure is a dedicated LFE channel sweep test file/tool. Rather than just the REW freq sweep tool I am using. Anyone have any suggestions as to a piece of software that can output controllable 5.1 test tones ?

this is very interesting, because on my VSX-1120K, setting the sub to YES and all speakers to LARGE, i still get full LEF from the sub.

PLUS and YES for the sub only affects whether it received LFE only, or LEF + Bass from each channel.
post #3980 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taggle View Post

Nope, if you set your speakers to LARGE and sub just to YES, nothing will get routed to the sub.

that is 100% wrong

and I've owned Elite AVR's since 2002, including 3 former flagships & the latest SC-68. and I know this for a fact since I use a RTA embedded in a Velodyne DD18 sub for measuring & adjusting the sub's response. my mains are set at Large and when the test tone's are activated in the software, the output of the sub is overlayed on top of that from the l/r.

you've been posting some interesting ideas lately & I've refrained from replying because I could not easily refute what you were posting. however, in this, I can can. the LFE track will still get sent to the sub even with mains set as Large. now, if you set ALL your speakers to Large, the dedicated LFE track will still be sent to the sub because the sub output = LFE + redirected bass.

plus is only "needed" if you want the sub AND Large speakers to reproduce the same bass simultaneously. but LFE goes to the sub regardless of whether you set speakers to Large or Small.
post #3981 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

this is very interesting, because on my VSX-1120K, setting the sub to YES and all speakers to LARGE, i still get full LEF from the sub.

and you would be correct. Taggle is incorrect.
post #3982 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taggle View Post

Nope, if you set your speakers to LARGE and sub just to YES, nothing will get routed to the sub.

If you want LARGE speakers and the sub to receive anything below the X.Over freq, you need to set it to PLUS.

At least that's how it goes with my SC-LX56. (Finger on the sub driver shows nothing at all coming though with the YES/LARGE setting, irrespective of X.Over.)

However, what I realy need to be absolutely sure is a dedicated LFE channel sweep test file/tool. Rather than just the REW freq sweep tool I am using. Anyone have any suggestions as to a piece of software that can output controllable 5.1 test tones ?

The piece of software would have to integrate well with REW to be able to run controlled sweeps. I'd like to see REW's author offer the ability to output the sweep tone to dedicated 'surround sound' channels. Or maybe he's already done that, but I don't think so. Best I could find is DVD's with test tones, but then you're limited on how you can capture their effect on your system.
Edited by garciab - 5/6/13 at 10:46am
post #3983 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

maybe i am missing something, but i don't know what all the fuzz is about with LFE X over cut off. the whole point of cross over, is so that it gets cut off, or rolled off. setting anything above 80, or letting the sub producing sound above that level, you're just asking for trouble, because you'll be able to pin point the direction of the sub, which i hate. if you really want to be able to pin point your sub, set it to 120, that way it won't be cut off and you can tell where it's coming from. it's simple as that, at least to me. i don't see why we're giving Pioneer such a hard time about this.

The fuzz is about the fact that LFE is spec'd to go up to 120Hz. Regardless of how much content is between say 80Hz and 120Hz on the LFE channel, the fact that Pioneer seems to throw this away is what the fuzz is about. Why isn't it routed to other speakers? It's been reported that it may be routed to a center that is set to large, so that may be Pioneer's approach. All I know is that it isn't routed to large fronts.
post #3984 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by garciab View Post

There can be lots of reasons why your system 'sounds' better with the different crossover settings. You can't go by what you hear to determine what the receiver is doing with its bass management. That's why you have to measure the electronics directly. In the end, what you hear is the most important thing, but it's a good idea to measure too to see at least what you should be hearing.

I'm gonna have to rush home to setup my Denon to see what it does with the LFE.

Ok yeah, but again i though all AVR's worked the way you say Pioneer AVR's do?
post #3985 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobdude View Post

Sub set to Yes and Xover at 120 with front speakers set to large

Sub = All LFE, anything under 120 for any speaker set to small
Front = full range

Change sub to plus from above:
Sub = All LFE, Anything under 120 (for all channels)
Front = Full Range

Thanks that answers the Manuals confusing wording on the subject of X.Over.
post #3986 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by garciab View Post

The piece of software would have to integrate well with REW to be able to run controlled sweeps. I'd like to see REW's author offer the ability to output the sweep tone to dedicated 'surround sound' channels. Or maybe he's already done that, but I don't think so. Best I could find is DVD's with test tones, but then you're limited on how you can capture their effect on your system.

Ok, I can now confirm the following.

Using Audacity and a frequency sweep plugin, I mixed a 5.1 channel audio wav file. (20 -200Hz sweeps with all channels except the LFE channel attentuated)

With the speaker settings as follows.

Sub YES (not PLUS, important)
Front LARGE
X.Over 150Hz

The result, the sub plays back the full LFE sweep.

Resetting the Wav file so say the left front is not attenuated results in both the left and sub playing the full sweep.
post #3987 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by garciab View Post

The piece of software would have to integrate well with REW to be able to run controlled sweeps. I'd like to see REW's author offer the ability to output the sweep tone to dedicated 'surround sound' channels. Or maybe he's already done that, but I don't think so. Best I could find is DVD's with test tones, but then you're limited on how you can capture their effect on your system.

Ok, I can now confirm the following.

Using Audacity and a frequency sweep plugin, I mixed a 5.1 channel audio wav file. (20 -200Hz sweeps with all channels except the LFE channel attentuated)

With the speaker settings as follows.

Sub YES (not PLUS, important)
Front LARGE
X.Over 150Hz

The result, the sub plays back the full LFE sweep.

Resetting the Wav file so say the left front is not attenuated results in both the left and sub playing the full sweep etc
post #3988 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by garciab View Post

The fuzz is about the fact that LFE is spec'd to go up to 120Hz. Regardless of how much content is between say 80Hz and 120Hz on the LFE channel, the fact that Pioneer seems to throw this away is what the fuzz is about. Why isn't it routed to other speakers? It's been reported that it may be routed to a center that is set to large, so that may be Pioneer's approach. All I know is that it isn't routed to large fronts.

so set the xo to 120 then.
post #3989 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by howzz1854 View Post

so set the xo to 120 then.

you took the words out of my hand wink.gif then @ 80 Hz

looks like Taggle just refuted himself that all bass, which would include LFE, does not get sent to the sub with "Large & Yes" wink.gif and he should be OK with that because his testing will help everybody who wonders about the intricacies of Pioneer bass mgmt.

now let's see what he finds out about the thrown-away freq's above the Xover. he could tell by changing the Xover to 80 Hz or below. or he can measure Large + Sub combined response to see if 80 or below Xover removes > 80 from LFE or redirects them to the Large speakers. this could get interesting smile.gif

and informative to all.

and to Exist_to_Resist's comment "Thanks that answers the Manuals confusing wording on the subject of X.Over", CE manuals never do. unfortunately, there are some who insist on taking the literal wording of the manual as gospel when all it's supposed to do is use lay wording for the normal "common" user, not detailed technical level explanations.

truth is, no CE company's manual does an adequate job of explaining how their respective bass mgmt systems work. as I've said lots of times, the best I've seen were Anthem's & Lexicon's and even those aren't totally complete, just a lot better than Denon-Onkyo-Marantz which are in turn better than Pioneer-Yamaha's.

can you imagine the confusion if companies really did go into details? it would be their support nightmare!

the easiest thing for CE companies is use the simplest language and basic level explanations - and even then, users still get hung up on how to set up their speakers! and ask why they can't get their subs to turn on, using Large & playing 2 channel material. a lot of folks would have trouble setting their systems up if there was detailed technical info.
Edited by ss9001 - 5/6/13 at 11:55am
post #3990 of 5334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taggle View Post

Ok, I can now confirm the following.

Using Audacity and a frequency sweep plugin, I mixed a 5.1 channel audio wav file. (20 -200Hz sweeps with all channels except the LFE channel attentuated)

With the speaker settings as follows.

Sub YES (not PLUS, important)
Front LARGE
X.Over 150Hz

The result, the sub plays back the full LFE sweep.

Resetting the Wav file so say the left front is not attenuated results in both the left and sub playing the full sweep.

How did you feed your test tones to the AVR?
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