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"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 146

post #4351 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Do any of the menus show up on-screen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

what type of connection (HDMI, component video), what receiver model, did you recently change something, did you change HDMI outputs, new TV, etc? plus Don's question - do any menus show up?

you said it showed years ago but that doesn't count as a recent situation we can relate to, especially since we don't even know if it's the same receiver or a newer one.

provide more info and we go from there.

Thanks to you both, but I figured it out. I had to switch inputs on my VSX-01 Elite AVR for some strange reason. Last I remember, it would show the on-screen display on my TV/DirecTV input, but last night I had to switch to the PS3's.

Anyway, thanks again.
post #4352 of 5322
Quick question in regards to xover frequency.
I ran Advanced MCACC when I first got my receiver and the Low Pass was set to 80 on the sub, and my receiver set the frequency at 80hz after running MCACC.
Now if I turn up the Low Pass on the sub to 100Hz let's say and on the receiver I set the Xover to 100Hz as well, would I need to rerun MCACC to re measure the room acoustics, etc?
post #4353 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post

Quick question in regards to xover frequency.
I ran Advanced MCACC when I first got my receiver and the Low Pass was set to 80 on the sub, and my receiver set the frequency at 80hz after running MCACC.
Now if I turn up the Low Pass on the sub to 100Hz let's say and on the receiver I set the Xover to 100Hz as well, would I need to rerun MCACC to re measure the room acoustics, etc?

No you don't need to re-run MCACC since it doesn't EQ the sub.
post #4354 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post

Quick question in regards to xover frequency.
I ran Advanced MCACC when I first got my receiver and the Low Pass was set to 80 on the sub, and my receiver set the frequency at 80hz after running MCACC.
Now if I turn up the Low Pass on the sub to 100Hz let's say and on the receiver I set the Xover to 100Hz as well, would I need to rerun MCACC to re measure the room acoustics, etc?

no, but you should turn the sub's LPF as high as possible or off so there's no gap between what the receiver sends and what the sub will use. setting both the same is usually not recommended according to manuals from Velodyne, SVS, DefTech among others. I own a Velo DD sub and initially I had both to 80 Hz, not knowing any better. when I turned the sub's internal crossover to off, I got more bass smile.gif. I was chopping off freq's > 80 Hz. you want all the redirected bass from the Pioneer to be reproduced by the sub, not limited it so recommended to set it to max or off and not use 2 crossovers.
post #4355 of 5322
Thanks ss9001, I assumed as much but wanted to be sure.
post #4356 of 5322
I now have my new Pioneer Elite SC-77 installed. I was looking back through this thread and I see in the first posts that it was recommended to manually analyze reverb and set capture delay time. This appears to be based on the separate MCACC manual that was available for the earlier MCACC models, for which the links in those first posts no longer work.

Anyway, I'm not seeing anything about capture delay time in the SC-77 manual and I'm not finding a separate MCACC manual for the SC-77, so would I be correct in assuming that Pioneer has incorporated this into the automatic functions of the MCACC and it is no longer necessary to perform these steps manually?
post #4357 of 5322
I have a quick question regarding MCACC auto calibration. After my Auto Calibration, I was told to use the SPL sound meter to get ALL speakers at 75 dB. After I got all the 3 front speakers, the final numbers seems odd to me. Do these look correct to yous?



Front Left = +6.5 dB

Center= +4.5 dB

Front Right= +5.5 dB




I am using the SPL sound meter that got the Needle. So it is a little difficult to tell where the Needle is actually sitting because the Needle keeps on bouncing back and fourth. LOL
post #4358 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by mantaraydesign View Post

I have a quick question regarding MCACC auto calibration. After my Auto Calibration, I was told to use the SPL sound meter to get ALL speakers at 75 dB. After I got all the 3 front speakers, the final numbers seems odd to me. Do these look correct to yous?



Front Left = +6.5 dB

Center= +4.5 dB

Front Right= +5.5 dB




I am using the SPL sound meter that got the Needle. So it is a little difficult to tell where the Needle is actually sitting because the Needle keeps on bouncing back and fourth. LOL

Where were you measuring them? Using white noise? What did mcacc set the speakers to. What did you have the volume on the receiver at. What source was the calibration sound coming from?
post #4359 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobdude View Post

Where were you measuring them? Using white noise? What did mcacc set the speakers to. What did you have the volume on the receiver at. What source was the calibration sound coming from?

The SPL sound meter is sitting about 17 feet away from the 3 front speakers. Yes, I am using the white noise from the Pioneer receiver.

The MCACC set the speakers to:

FL - +4.0 dB
C - +2 dB
FR - +3.5 dB

The Master Volume was set to +5.5 dB which is the Max.
post #4360 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by mantaraydesign View Post

The SPL sound meter is sitting about 17 feet away from the 3 front speakers. Yes, I am using the white noise from the Pioneer receiver.

The MCACC set the speakers to:

FL - +4.0 dB
C - +2 dB
FR - +3.5 dB

The Master Volume was set to +5.5 dB which is the Max.

Looks fine to me, you have to realize that your room acoustics will not be uniform, that and no two speakers are exactly the same.
For instance my FL speaker is something like +3 dB higher than my FR, however the field of sound is also obscured by my couch.
post #4361 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post

Looks fine to me, you have to realize that your room acoustics will not be uniform, that and no two speakers are exactly the same.
For instance my FL speaker is something like +3 dB higher than my FR, however the field of sound is also obscured by my couch.


Thanks for your advice!

It is really confusing to me because these numbers do not match. I thought all the 3 front speakers should have the exact number. I thought these 3 front speakers should look like this:

FL- +4.0 dB
C- +4.0 dB
FR- +4.0 dB
post #4362 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by mantaraydesign View Post

Thanks for your advice!

It is really confusing to me because these numbers do not match. I thought all the 3 front speakers should have the exact number. I thought these 3 front speakers should look like this:

FL- +4.0 dB
C- +4.0 dB
FR- +4.0 dB

no, that's wrong. they are not supposed to match unless you had completely identical speakers with completely identical distances, in identical acoustic environments, which they never will be (there are no walls near the center for instance)

what room calibrations do is alter the preamp outputs for each channel so that all speakers not the electrical signals, produce same acoustic sound output relative to your listening position and to each other. so you can have a large difference between your fronts, center & surrounds...what it's doing is compensating so that at your seat, all sound close in volume and close as possible freq response wise so you have an integrated seamless soundfield not point sources.

if it really did what you thought it should, then it would be completely wrong and probably sound poor. for example, if you had a small size center but large tower size fronts, your center dialog would be drowned out, buried in the mix, being much lower in volume. the center would have to be boosted in order to sound similar to the fronts in this case.

as far as the differences between your measurement and MCACC cal, you didn't look closely enough at the readings:

sure, the actual numbers are different by about 2 dB, but you'll notice that your calibration still was 2 dB difference between the front left and the center and your right was only 0.5 dB different from MCACC. the center has the exact same dB differential that MCACC set from the left.

so instead of being off, your MCACC calibration was actually quite accurate, considering you were chasing a moving meter needle! rolleyes.gif

think about it wink.gif

hope this helps with your understanding smile.gif
Edited by ss9001 - 8/9/13 at 11:17am
post #4363 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

no, that's wrong. they are not supposed to match unless you had completely identical speakers with completely identical distances, in identical acoustic environments, which they never will be (there are no walls near the center for instance)

what room calibrations do is alter the preamp outputs for each channel so that all speakers not the electrical signals, produce same acoustic sound output relative to your listening position and to each other. so you can have a large difference between your fronts, center & surrounds...what it's doing is compensating so that at your seat, all sound close in volume and close as possible freq response wise so you have an integrated seamless soundfield not point sources.

if it really did what you thought it should, then it would be completely wrong and probably sound poor. for example, if you had a small size center but large tower size fronts, your center dialog would be drowned out, buried in the mix, being much lower in volume. the center would have to be boosted in order to sound similar to the fronts in this case.

as far as the differences between your measurement and MCACC cal, you didn't look closely enough at the readings:

sure, the actual numbers are different by about 2 dB, but you'll notice that your calibration still was 2 dB difference between the front left and the center and your right was only 0.5 dB different from MCACC. the center has the exact same dB differential that MCACC set from the left.

so instead of being off, your MCACC calibration was actually quite accurate, considering you were chasing a moving meter needle! rolleyes.gif

think about it wink.gif

hope this helps with your understanding smile.gif


Thanks!!
post #4364 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

I now have my new Pioneer Elite SC-77 installed. I was looking back through this thread and I see in the first posts that it was recommended to manually analyze reverb and set capture delay time. This appears to be based on the separate MCACC manual that was available for the earlier MCACC models, for which the links in those first posts no longer work.

Anyway, I'm not seeing anything about capture delay time in the SC-77 manual and I'm not finding a separate MCACC manual for the SC-77, so would I be correct in assuming that Pioneer has incorporated this into the automatic functions of the MCACC and it is no longer necessary to perform these steps manually?

Disregard. I found it under "Acoustic Calibration EQ Professional". "Capture Delay" was not a suitable search term for the manual.
post #4365 of 5322
KC (Is there a Sunshine Band?), biggrin.gif

Here is a copy of the MCACC Operating Instructions.

SC_MCACC_OperatingInstructions.pdf 1432k .pdf file
post #4366 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

Disregard. I found it under "Acoustic Calibration EQ Professional". "Capture Delay" was not a suitable search term for the manual.

To correctly use the manual MCACC, one should read/download the SC 09 or 07 MCACC manual. SC-09 MCACC Manual.pdf 1150k .pdf file
post #4367 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

KC (Is there a Sunshine Band?), biggrin.gif

Here is a copy of the MCACC Operating Instructions.

SC_MCACC_OperatingInstructions.pdf 1432k .pdf file

Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

To correctly use the manual MCACC, one should read/download the SC 09 or 07 MCACC manual. SC-09 MCACC Manual.pdf 1150k .pdf file


Thanks!!! I almost passed on looking at this since it didn't refer specifically to my unit. I found the "How to Interpret the Graphs" and "Deciding the time period for Advanced EQ Setup calibration" sections extremely helpful.
post #4368 of 5322
FWIT, thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. I tried to read as much of it as I could, but going through 114 pages isn't doable. However, I spent a few hours today trying out the suggestions listed in post #1, along with multiple suggested tweaks, and I have to admit, it has made a HUGE world of difference in how my speakers sound....and that difference is for the better. I am getting much more robust bass during 5.1 listening and two channel music is exceptionally more enjoyable. Before, two channel music was really, really shrill and hollow sounding. Now everything sounds more balanced and full. I'm looking to upgrade to a real subwoofer soon, so I'll have the joys of meandering through this whole process over again!
post #4369 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by morbidcorpse View Post

I'm looking to upgrade to a real subwoofer soon, so I'll have the joys of meandering through this whole process over again!

and your fun is just beginning - wait to you get a true sub wink.gif

it will make a world of difference. like the depth charge scene on U-571 - when I watched it with my very 1st sub, I had to turn around to make sure the walls weren't cracked eek.gif seriously, it was like the explosions were in the room! cool.gif that's what you want wink.gif

glad this thread helped you.
post #4370 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

and your fun is just beginning - wait to you get a true sub wink.gif

it will make a world of difference. like the depth charge scene on U-571 - when I watched it with my very 1st sub, I had to turn around to make sure the walls weren't cracked eek.gif seriously, it was like the explosions were in the room! cool.gif that's what you want wink.gif

glad this thread helped you.
I picked up U-571 recently for this very reason wink.gif
post #4371 of 5322
Haven't played that movie since we had an 8" Yamaha sub that was easily the worst speaker of any kind I've ever owned.

Put a new 12" SVS cylinder in last week and ran MCACC. Huge and welcome difference.

Thanks to your posts, U-571 is next up. 💣
post #4372 of 5322
Hi

I have a Pioneer SC 2022k and have read the initial post and run calibrations as advised. My problems is I cannot see graphs for anything other than the Memory 1 preset. I am using the Pioneer AVNavigator version 1.13.1.009.1.100 software. There are three tabs; "Reverb", "Group Delay" and "Parameters". The Reverb tab only ever shows data for the Memory1 preset, Group Delay just says "No Data", and Parameters shows data for all 6 presets. I have saved calibrations for symmetry, all channel adjust, and front align to memory presets 1, 2 and 3 respectively. How do I compare the reverb data for each preset please? It's driving me mad...

Thanks, Simon
post #4373 of 5322
Did you try checking data on the MCACC menu in the receiver itself? before you try the AVNav disc & Advanced MCACC software, just view it in the receiver's internal OSD on your TV. then you can tell if it's "there". it's easy to do.

MCACC Data Check in the menu and then you can view all the parameters. you will have to manually select each preset up front before you view its parameters. I can't remember where in the menu it's at but one of the screens will have M1 Symmetry as the default, you can use the right/left or up/down arrows to change it to M2, M3, and then you go to each setting, Speaker Distance, Prof EQ, Group Delay, Standing Wave, etc. to view another preset, go back to that beginning, change the preset, then move forward again.

I haven't used the software in a couple yrs but it allows you to download the info to your PC. it used to be with an RS-232 connection but I believe it's over IP now. Pioneer's software generates pretty graphs from an excel file that's stored on your PC. It's very nice but not mandatory to view the info which you can easily do just with the receiver menu and TV.

My guess at this point is that you're stuck in preset 1, Symm, because you haven't figured out where/how to change it. Going thru the receiver GUI on your TV might make it easier to figure out.

also, there aren't many screenshots in the manual but do read it...page 75 for your model, and to check data, pg 79-81. one of the descriptions or one of the few diagrams may help you smile.gif

finally, did you run Auto MCACC or Full Auto MCACC? to get everything for all 3 presets, you wanted to run Full Auto MCACC.
post #4374 of 5322
Thanks for the reply Steve. Yes, I checked on the receiver first but it only seems to show M1. Even if I leave the home page and change to another memory preset, when I go back to review the reverb data it still only shows M1 with no way to change the preset. I definitely saved calibrations in the following order; M1 - Symmetry, M2 - All Channel Adjust, and M3 - Front Align. I can see that the stored data is different, because it shows on the parameter tab of the software. But, it's the graphical reverb data that I want to compare. The AVNavigator software does work over IP. Maybe it would work if I try the Advanced MCACC software and the RS-232 cable as you suggest?
post #4375 of 5322
^^
the older versions were only rs-232 & had to use a null modem cable. if it's over the network, then stay with that. I've used the software many times with the former flagships 49txi, 59txi, SC-09 but not the SC-68. While I've installed the software, I really haven't taken the actually transfer the data from the 68 to my PC redface.gif the reason is the OSD of the data that will show on your TV from the new models is so much better than it used to be, I just haven't felt a burning desire.

But if all you want to do is look at the data, I can tell you how to change presets to view each one. it's not intuitive and I suspect the reason for you not seeing it in the software is the same. When you download the data, you may be downloading only the preset that is selected. I don't know this but IIRC,

I had to go to my SC-68 MCACC Data Check to get the steps. The main thing is you must actually change MCACC to the preset you want to view before you can view its readings. I'm just the messenger wink.gif IOW, if you have your receiver in M1, M1's settings are all you are going to see. To view M2, change the MCACC preset to M2 using the remote or menu and then you'll be viewing M2. M3 - M6 the same, change to each one and you can see it.

OR you can do this just in the OSD to your TV.

1, Go to MCACC Data Check
2. Go to Channel Level
3. in the upper left corner, you will see a field with the preset name next to "MCACC:".
4. use the left or right remote buttons to change from M1 to M2, M3, M4, etc and you will see the Channel Levels change to the ones for that preset
5. exit Channel Level
6. go down the menu and select Acoustic EQ, whichever preset you selected to view in Channel Level will be the one you view in Acoustic EQ
7. same is true for Standing Wave Filter - the preset you select in Ch Level is the one you'll see for the SWF.
8. Group Delay for Phase Control will be the same for all the presets and the data is not dependent on the preset you are in
9. to view another preset's data, go back to Channel Level, change the preset there, then all the rest will be changed

setting the preset in Ch Level seems to be 1 of 2 switches that tells the rest which one to display.

so there are 2 ways to view each preset's data:
1. actually change the preset on the receiver
2. go into Channel Level and change the preset being displayed there

This is what the older software version looked like:

LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01
LEAD Technologies Inc. V1.01

there was no distinction between presets for EQ but you DID have to do 2 downloads: 1 for EQ on and 1 for it off.

I don't know what the current version displays since I haven't used it. If I get motivated tomorrow wink.gif I'll try it, download the data and maybe then I can better help. but if you have this burning desire to see it today, just use the OSD on your TV and follow the steps I gave you.
post #4376 of 5322
light bulb moment on what I think you are thinking you should see wink.gif

you mention "graphical reverb" data and this just occurred to me after last post.

just to be sure you & I are on same page, the reverb compensation is used in Acoustic EQ but not based on presets. and it's not Group Delay which is what the Phase Control measurements do and is also not dependent on the preset.

the Reverb tab in the software shows how each freq builds in volume over time in ms and that is not preset dependent. think about it, why would the actual freq response from your speakers change from preset to preset? it is what it is, one measurement for all. what the receiver does with that data is use it to compensate the measuring time in the presets. the presets are where the actual EQ is changed according to what the preset is for.

but the actual reverb measurement is time based and is the same for each preset, it's just measuring how much each freq increases with time for each speaker. the time when all freq's are more or less flattened is the time used to "fix" the measuring time out for each speaker and is applied the same for every preset. IOW, it's speaker dependent NOT preset dependent, it will be the same for all.

one tab for Reverb, where you don't change the preset, is the way it's always been in the software since the early 2000's smile.gif

there is one graph for EQ on and one for it off, where you can tell the receiver to use EQ or not. in that sense, that seems like it would be preset dependent, so select the preset you want, run the reverb measurement manually, download it to software and then you have a graph. 3 presets X 2 downloads (EQ on, EQ off) = 6 excel files. it gets tedious smile.gif at least that is the way it used to work.

see if my 2 posts help smile.gif

if not, I don't know how else to advise you since I'm not in your room & can't see what you're trying to do wink.gif
Edited by ss9001 - 8/24/13 at 3:13pm
post #4377 of 5322
Sorry I didn't remember the next items last night...it's been awhile since I've looked at this stuff wink.gif

You don't view the Reverb data in the receiver in the same place as all the rest; it's not in MCACC Data Check. It's in the Advanced MCACC menu.

To view Reverb data:

1. Select the Advanced MCACC menu
2. Select Manual MCACC
3. Select EQ Professional
4. Select Reverb View

why it's organized there instead of in the MCACC Data Check I don't know, but it is.

Downloading Reverb data to software:

Another important point on downloading this to PC for the software. It used to be that you had to download the Reverb time-freq data right after you ran MCACC and not turn off the receiver. if you turned the receiver off and tried to download it later, it would be gone. it's still stored in the receiver for viewing but you couldn't download it. that also may account for why you don't have access to it in the software tab. I don't know if this is still the case, but if it is & you didn't download it right away, you'd have to either re-run Full MCACC and download your data again, or run Reverb Measurement and download.
Edited by ss9001 - 8/25/13 at 5:17am
post #4378 of 5322
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

light bulb moment on what I think you are thinking you should see wink.gif

you mention "graphical reverb" data and this just occurred to me after last post.

just to be sure you & I are on same page, the reverb compensation is used in Acoustic EQ but not based on presets. and it's not Group Delay which is what the Phase Control measurements do and is also not dependent on the preset.

the Reverb tab in the software shows how each freq builds in volume over time in ms and that is not preset dependent. think about it, why would the actual freq response from your speakers change from preset to preset? it is what it is, one measurement for all. what the receiver does with that data is use it to compensate the measuring time in the presets. the presets are where the actual EQ is changed according to what the preset is for.

but the actual reverb measurement is time based and is the same for each preset, it's just measuring how much each freq increases with time for each speaker. the time when all freq's are more or less flattened is the time used to "fix" the measuring time out for each speaker and is applied the same for every preset. IOW, it's speaker dependent NOT preset dependent, it will be the same for all.

one tab for Reverb, where you don't change the preset, is the way it's always been in the software since the early 2000's smile.gif

there is one graph for EQ on and one for it off, where you can tell the receiver to use EQ or not. in that sense, that seems like it would be preset dependent, so select the preset you want, run the reverb measurement manually, download it to software and then you have a graph. 3 presets X 2 downloads (EQ on, EQ off) = 6 excel files. it gets tedious smile.gif at least that is the way it used to work.

see if my 2 posts help smile.gif

if not, I don't know how else to advise you since I'm not in your room & can't see what you're trying to do wink.gif

Thanks very much for your helpful advice Steve. Your middle post solved the problem as I was expecting the reverb 'after' data to vary between different types of calibration. Your explanation has clarified that for me thank you. Which leads me to two other questions I have about MCACC:

1) How do you determine which of "symmetry", "all channel adjust", and "front align" is the best EQ. Just from listening, I have a tendency to prefer the "all channel adjust" calibration. Subjectively, it seems a bit more lively than symmetry, and more balanced than "front align".

2) My second problem is that my hearing isn't perfect, and I do have to listen at moderate levels to appreciate dialogue. Also, I live in a flat and have to be considerate of noise for neighbours. After running the MCACC calibration my system (Pioneer BDP-450, Pioneer SC-2022k, KEF KHT3005SE) is sounding good, but listening at reference levels is not ideal in my environment. The dynamic range is just too great and to hear the dialogue I have to notch the volume up, only to rapidly turn it back down again for every loud noise, explosion etc. I have tried the Dynamic Range Control, Dolby Loudness, and the Pioneer Dialogue Enhancement and Auto Level Control. None of which helps significantly. My old Onkyo TX-SR608 was fine in this regard as it had a "Dynamic Volume" function that worked well, introducing different levels of compression. This was great for late night listening. Is there another feature on my Pioneer that I can try? Or, some modification to MCACC I can make to improve matters? Hope you can help, as it's right hand down on the volume knob, back again, up, down, up, down, like a fiddler's elbow at the moment!

Thanks, Simon
post #4379 of 5322
I'm preparing to do the reverb measurement and capture adjustment steps of the MCACC procedure on my SC-77. I started through these previously, but I couldn't figure out how to do the Reverb View step (Step 6 in the 1st post of this thread) without turning on my TV which has a cooling fan which produces noise, and that I prefer not to quick cycle. Is there any way to see the Reverb View on the iControlAV 2013 or AVNavigator apps? I could only find the reverb views for the Auto MCACC run with Keep SP Settings I had just done. Is there any other way I can access this Reverb View data without turning the TV on? I can do Windows if I must, but I prefer to stay on the Mac side of things.

Also any thoughts about which conditions to consider when deciding if "symmetry " or "all channel adjust" should be selected? My setup is in a great room which does not provide anywhere near symmetrical acoustics for opposing speakers either front or rear, so I'm thinking "all channel adjust" would be preferred. I have a 5.1 (2 subwoofer) setup and all 5 speakers are identical. I also have some more identical satellite speakers in anticipation of a possible 7.1 setup.
post #4380 of 5322
I haven't got the AVNavigator app as it's not yet available as an Android app. I can view the reverb graphs on my PC using the Windows verion of AVNavigator as per my post above: "I am using the Pioneer AVNavigator version 1.13.1.009.1.100 software. There are three tabs; "Reverb", "Group Delay" and "Parameters"."

Hope that helps. You can also save the data locally to a file on your PC. The file is downloaded over IP.
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