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"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 147

post #4381 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoughlan View Post

I haven't got the AVNavigator app as it's not yet available as an Android app. I can view the reverb graphs on my PC using the Windows verion of AVNavigator as per my post above: "I am using the Pioneer AVNavigator version 1.13.1.009.1.100 software. There are three tabs; "Reverb", "Group Delay" and "Parameters"."

Hope that helps. You can also save the data locally to a file on your PC. The file is downloaded over IP.

I have those tabs on the iPad, but I believe the data shown under the reverb tab there is that captured during the Auto MCACC run, rather than what is captured during the Acoustic Calibration EQ Professional Reverb Measurement.
post #4382 of 5326
@KC-Tech: Ok, this may be me sticking my head in the wood chipper (not from you, but others)... I think you may be misunderstanding what those settings are for.

My first MCACC receiver was many versions back, when everything was alphabet soup... VSX-72TXvi-867-5309, something like that. ANYWAY, back then I realized using MCACC's 5-channel EQ might not be optimal for 2-channel listening. So I lied to it, said there were only 2 speakers, and put that MCACC run in a different memory slot.

The difference was VERY noticeable to me, and the graphs were different, too, since MCACC wasn't trying to match the mains to anything else.

Fast forward to my SC-57. Now, I see there are 3 "modes" ... Symmetrical, All Channel, and whatever that 3rd one is. "Self," I says, "that's STEREO, 5-Channel movie, and 5-Channel TV." Nothing I read disabused me of that notion, and that's what I've gone with ever since.

Again, that's my very unscientific interpretation of what those settings really mean. ss9001 can refute, but only if he coughs up more detail on his dark hints about MCACC upgrades. YOU HEAR ME?
post #4383 of 5326
^ My understanding is that "Symmetry" applies identical equalization to opposing channels such as LF and RF, or LS and RS. "All Channel Adjust" equalizes each channel individually. "Front Align" equalizes all other channels to match the characteristics of the LF and RF which are then not equalized.

In an ideal listening room, opposing speakers would be placed in identical acoustical environments. The LF speaker would be placed the same distance from the back wall and side wall as the RF speaker would be. The LS would be the same distance from the side and back walls as the RS speaker.

To me "Front Align" is saying "I love how my main stereo speakers (LF and RF) sound without any equalization so don't do anything to them, but try to make my other speakers sound like them."
Edited by KC-Technerd - 8/29/13 at 3:48pm
post #4384 of 5326
^^
you are 100% right, KC.
my own reply to dscottj coming up smile.gif my PC locked up hitting the send button so you beat me wink.gif
post #4385 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by dscottj View Post

Fast forward to my SC-57. Now, I see there are 3 "modes" ... Symmetrical, All Channel, and whatever that 3rd one is. "Self," I says, "that's STEREO, 5-Channel movie, and 5-Channel TV." Nothing I read disabused me of that notion, and that's what I've gone with ever since.

wow, you're thinking of me wink.gif

Symmetry - speakers are EQ'd to the target curve as left-right pairs

All Channels Adjust - each speaker is independently EQ'd to the target curve

Front Aligned - the fronts (STEREO) are not EQ'd at all, and all the rest are EQ'd to match the non-EQ'd fronts. this is for those that like their fronts sound just the way they are with no EQ applied so all the rest get matched to them.

you are free to use any of them on any source depending on how you want it to sound to your ears, not specifically meant for movies vs music.

now, if you want to identify the presets as how you like to use them, you can rename them - for example you might rename Symmetry as Movie if you prefer to use for...movies. I think one of the alternate names may be Music, another is Couch or some such (I don't remember them all & I'm too lazy now to check tongue.gif)

there's explanations in the manual & all I've done is paraphrase it plus 10+ yrs experience with 3 Elites wink.gif

and I've looked at the readouts in the PC software so I can 100% guarantee you that how KC & I describe them is exactly what the data shows. in Symmetry, the settings are identical for each left-right opposing pair (left front = right front, left surround = right surround, etc). and All Ch Adj really does show each speaker may have different settings between the left & right fronts, surrounds, etc. Front Aligned data shows nothing done to the fronts.

I do understand why you might think symmetry meant stereo because it is measuring the speakers as stereo pairs. maybe this is what you meant, but it's not a 2 channel stereo EQ per se.

in my own setup, I tended to use Symmetry for movies and All Ch Adj for 5.1 music. I can't give you a scientific wink.gif reason for it, but anymore, I just Symmetry for everything, because I'm the King of the Media Room and my Iron Throne (Game of Thrones eek.gif) is dead center in the home theater seats so my speakers are all...symmetrical to me anyway wink.gif

in my setup, the differences between Symm & All Ch Adj is not significant anyway because each opposing pair of speakers is perfectly set up to be within a fraction inch the same distance from the main listening position - IOW, left front & right front are both 10' 1/2", the side surrounds are both ~ 6 ft. etc.

if a room wasn't conducive to that kind of speaker alignment due to no wall, open doorways, adjoining room, then I would expect Symm & ACADj to be lot more different because the 2 sides are different acoustically.
Edited by ss9001 - 8/30/13 at 3:06am
post #4386 of 5326
^ That's my issue. Although I have as perfect of speaker symmetry relative to the prime listening spot as I could achieve using tape measure and trigonometry, my listening room geometry is a bit challenging. The short version is that the room has several openings (entryway, hallway, stairway to basement, breakfast/kitchen), and a vaulted ceiling. I have the symmetry centerline of the system offset from that of the room by about 3 feet. Even if it were practical to match centerlines, this would place the right front speaker in front of the hallway, and the right surround over the open stairway, behind a half wall, and in a corner where the left surround is not. Oh, also the speakers are rear ported.

Anyway, I'm guessing this is the situation that "All Channel Adjust" is designed for, and that "Symmetry" is more appropriate for systems where the system is in a room where the left and right sides of the system are in a similar enough acoustic environment that it is appropriate to apply identical equalization to both sides of the system. I was just curious what others here thought about it.
post #4387 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dscottj View Post

Fast forward to my SC-57. Now, I see there are 3 "modes" ... Symmetrical, All Channel, and whatever that 3rd one is. "Self," I says, "that's STEREO, 5-Channel movie, and 5-Channel TV." Nothing I read disabused me of that notion, and that's what I've gone with ever since.

wow, you're thinking of me wink.gif

Symmetry - speakers are EQ'd to the target curve as left-right pairs

All Channels Adjust - each speaker is independently EQ'd to the target curve

Front Aligned - the fronts (STEREO) are not EQ'd at all, and all the rest are EQ'd to match the non-EQ'd fronts. this is for those that like their fronts sound just the way they are with no EQ applied so all the rest get matched to them.

you are free to use any of them on any source depending on how you want it to sound to your ears, not specifically meant for movies vs music.

now, if you want to identify the presets as how you like to use them, you can rename them - for example you might rename Symmetry as Movie if you prefer to use for...movies. I think one of the alternate names may be Music, another is Couch or some such (I don't remember them all & I'm too lazy now to check tongue.gif)

there's explanations in the manual & all I've done is paraphrase it plus 10+ yrs experience with 3 Elites wink.gif

and I've looked at the readouts in the PC software so I can 100% guarantee you that how KC & I describe them is exactly what the data shows. in Symmetry, the settings are identical for each left-right opposing pair (left front = right front, left surround = right surround, etc). and All Ch Adj really does show each speaker may have different settings between the left & right fronts, surrounds, etc. Front Aligned data shows nothing done to the fronts.

I do understand why you might think symmetry meant stereo because it is measuring the speakers as stereo pairs. maybe this is what you meant, but it's not a 2 channel stereo EQ per se.

in my own setup, I tended to use Symmetry for movies and All Ch Adj for 5.1 music. I can't give you a scientific wink.gif reason for it, but anymore, I just Symmetry for everything, because I'm the King of the Media Room and my Iron Throne (Game of Thrones eek.gif) is dead center in the home theater seats so my speakers are all...symmetrical to me anyway wink.gif

in my setup, the differences between Symm & All Ch Adj is not significant anyway because each opposing pair of speakers is perfectly set up to be within a fraction inch the same distance from the main listening position - IOW, left front & right front are both 10' 1/2", the side surrounds are both ~ 6 ft. etc.

if a room wasn't conducive to that kind of speaker alignment due to no wall, open doorways, adjoining room, then I would expect Symm & ACADj to be lot more different because the 2 sides are different acoustically.

Hey ss9001 - great information as always, thanks! Sorry if I'm slow on the uptake here, but you can assign a different "EQ" to different sources? Can you have each source default to a particular EQ?

I think (hope) I've been using Symmetry as that would be the default EQ after doing a full-auto MCACC (on an SC-57)? My room is in fact pretty symmetricl although there are some over-sized entrances along 2 of the walls, but they are well away from the speakers.

Now I'm thinking Front-Align might be a really good setting for me to try out for 2-channel music. I got b*tch-slapped on another thread a little while back as I had the temerity to suggest that I preferred not to listen to my subwoofer for 2 channel music (just use my fronts alone instead of 2.1). Front-Align might help me to do a more "pure" comparison with and without the subwoofer in the chain.

Cheers,
JD
post #4388 of 5326
ss9001 gets shown a yellow card for not even hinting at what he knows of the future.

//Friday night wine confuses the middle-aged audiophile wannabe
post #4389 of 5326
Hi all,

I've got a question regarding the MCACC microphone. My Pioneer Elite AVR is hidden in another room, so I require a long microphone cable to get it into the main room. I'm currently using my old Onkyo microphone to run MCACC, because it's about 4 feet longer than the Pioneer mic cable that came with the AVR, and even that is barely enough to get it to the listening spot. So, I have two questions:

1. Is it beneficial to use the Pioneer microphone or should it not matter?

2. If I decide to use the Pioneer microphone, is it ok if I get a mini-headphone extension cable so I can get the microphone to the listening spot? Or will that extra cable length throw off the calibration somehow?
post #4390 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jestered View Post

Hi all,

I've got a question regarding the MCACC microphone. My Pioneer Elite AVR is hidden in another room, so I require a long microphone cable to get it into the main room. I'm currently using my old Onkyo microphone to run MCACC, because it's about 4 feet longer than the Pioneer mic cable that came with the AVR, and even that is barely enough to get it to the listening spot. So, I have two questions:

1. Is it beneficial to use the Pioneer microphone or should it not matter?

2. If I decide to use the Pioneer microphone, is it ok if I get a mini-headphone extension cable so I can get the microphone to the listening spot? Or will that extra cable length throw off the calibration somehow?

I called Pioneer CS concerning extending the mic with an extension cable. I needed about an extra 10 feet. So the cable would lay on the floor and not be a trip wire when the mic was placed in position. They said that extending it 10 feet would be OK. Just make sure you buy a mono extension cable. There was a limit though as to how long you could extend it.

I would recommend only using the mic that came with your AVR when performing a calabration.
post #4391 of 5326
Just a thought, how about moving the AVR to the room, do the calibration and move it back wink.gif
post #4392 of 5326
Use only the microphone designed for the receiver. These are very cheap microphones... but their various anomalies and shortfalls are known to the software and are pre-compensated in the calibration. The Onkyo mic would have its own, different, aberrations.

The danger of a long cable is the potential for (a) picking up hum and noise and (b) changing the signal due to changing the impedance of the microphone through added cable loading. And since you never hear the mic yourself, you'd never know except through results that are "off."
post #4393 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by GusGus748s View Post

Just a thought, how about moving the AVR to the room, do the calibration and move it back wink.gif

Because the speaker wires that connect to the AVR are in the other room. If I move the AVR into the main room to run the calibration, there's no way of connecting the speakers to the AVR unless I pull all that speaker wire through the wall and ceiling. That's not a solution for me.
post #4394 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by LNEWoLF View Post

I called Pioneer CS concerning extending the mic with an extension cable. I needed about an extra 10 feet. So the cable would lay on the floor and not be a trip wire when the mic was placed in position. They said that extending it 10 feet would be OK. Just make sure you buy a mono extension cable. There was a limit though as to how long you could extend it.

I would recommend only using the mic that came with your AVR when performing a calabration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

Use only the microphone designed for the receiver. These are very cheap microphones... but their various anomalies and shortfalls are known to the software and are pre-compensated in the calibration. The Onkyo mic would have its own, different, aberrations.

The danger of a long cable is the potential for (a) picking up hum and noise and (b) changing the signal due to changing the impedance of the microphone through added cable loading. And since you never hear the mic yourself, you'd never know except through results that are "off."

Ok I will use the Pioneer mic to run the calibration next. So, the question now is whether or not a 6 foot extension cable is ok to use or not. It sounds like Pioneer said it was.
post #4395 of 5326
A quick question. The new receivers have 'Advanced MCACC'. Do the new one's also calibrate the sub-woofers as well?

I currently own a Pioneer VSX-LX50 receiver (EU model) and I am on the fence about maybe upgrading my receiver.
I plan on using a 5.1 setup (because of space) with Klipsh bookshelf speakers with a single sub-woofer. So even if the new Pioneer receivers don't calibrate the subs, would I really be missing out?

I read great many things about Audyssey calibration and that it also calibrates the subs, however I prefer Pioneer receivers over Denon and Onkyo etc.

Thanks
post #4396 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekka View Post

A quick question. The new receivers have 'Advanced MCACC'. Do the new one's also calibrate the sub-woofers as well?

I currently own a Pioneer VSX-LX50 receiver (EU model) and I am on the fence about maybe upgrading my receiver.
I plan on using a 5.1 setup (because of space) with Klipsh bookshelf speakers with a single sub-woofer. So even if the new Pioneer receivers don't calibrate the subs, would I really be missing out?

I read great many things about Audyssey calibration and that it also calibrates the subs, however I prefer Pioneer receivers over Denon and Onkyo etc.

Thanks

Unfortunately, MCACC doesn't EQ the sub.
post #4397 of 5326
Not having Auddysee is no big problem. I feel MCACC is a better system. The MCACC will set filters for 3 frequencies, bandwidth and gain/attenuation. This is the exact same thing a Parametric Equalizer does but, it only goes to 63 Hz. There is only 2 things to do under 63 Hz, 1) bass boost and 2) cut one peak. That is it !!!! I have a PEQ and have found doing anymore will only make things worse. MCACC does everything else including addressing the peak under 63 Hz at the next harmonic which is more of what we hear. 95% of subwoofers on the market already have a bass boost built in.

The talk about Pioneer not addressing the subwoofer is mis-information and repeated rumor. Addressing the peak under 63 Hz can take away the mid bass slam. The frequency band used universally is 20 Hz to 20 kHz. So, we are talking about the band from 20 Hz to 63 Hz, this is an extremely small band. Pioneer dose not call it sub EQ, they call it standing wave control/correction.
Edited by derrickdj1 - 9/3/13 at 9:07pm
post #4398 of 5326
It would also help if people would place a sub where it works best instead of what looks best.
post #4399 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

It would also help if people would place a sub where it works best instead of what looks best.

Unfortunately that is not possible for many people. Living rooms with limited space, tower speakers with built-in subs, and wives all limit sub placement!biggrin.gif
post #4400 of 5326
Does anyone know which features of MCACC are disabled when using the multi channel analog inputs on the SC-57? Seems like all that's active is level and distance. I've dissected the manual and the SC-57 thread and I've got nothing. Anyone? TIA
post #4401 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post


The talk about Pioneer not addressing the subwoofer is mis-information and repeated rumor. Addressing the peak under 63 Hz can take away the mid bass slam. The frequency band used universally is 20 Hz to 20 kHz. So, we are talking about the band from 20 Hz to 63 Hz, this is an extremely small band. Pioneer dose not call it sub EQ, they call it standing wave control/correction.

Please elaborate. I have two peaks blow 63 hz, and mcacc has not addressed either one. Thx
post #4402 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Please elaborate. I have two peaks blow 63 hz, and mcacc has not addressed either one. Thx

That's exactly what he said, that MCACC will not touch any peaks under 63Hz as this may take away the the mid bass slam.
Anything over 63 is fair game though.
post #4403 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post

That's exactly what he said, that MCACC will not touch any peaks under 63Hz as this may take away the the mid bass slam.
Anything over 63 is fair game though.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Im mixed about not having MCACC not touch anything below 63hz. I am glad it is not addressed In an Audessy fashion. But it would be nice if the standing wave control would address below 63hz AND be adjustable like so many other things in MCACC seem to be.

Are the standing wave control settings adjustable?
post #4404 of 5326
With SC65 can we put EQ OFF and have just the Basic Setup like : Levels, Distance , Crossover ,
post #4405 of 5326
^ the answer is in your manual.

I suggest you get acquainted with how it's organized so you can find this kind of information easily (it's on the CD that came in the box or you can download it)

audio parameters
Edited by ss9001 - 9/6/13 at 10:28am
post #4406 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

With SC65 can we put EQ OFF and have just the Basic Setup like : Levels, Distance , Crossover ,

The answer is yes.
post #4407 of 5326
^^
between our 2 answers, maybe he'll look it up wink.gif I wasn't going to give him the answer. sometimes it's best to point people in the direction and let them learn...
post #4408 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
between our 2 answers, maybe he'll look it up wink.gif I wasn't going to give him the answer. sometimes it's best to point people in the direction and let them learn...

I wil ,I will I'm just freaked out on the complexity of this unit , soooooo many options, just leads me to believe there are more chances of screwing something up and not getting full potential .

...Like why do they give us a choice for High -Bit 32, On or OFF, I thought a high Bit rate was good ??
post #4409 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

I wil ,I will I'm just freaked out on the complexity of this unit , soooooo many options, just leads me to believe there are more chances of screwing something up and not getting full potential .

...Like why do they give us a choice for High -Bit 32, On or OFF, I thought a high Bit rate was good ??

Don't sweat it buddy..... just take your time. Get it set up so it's 'doable' now, and play with a little at time. In between, read about how it works. It's a powerful tool that I myself have barely touched. wink.gif
post #4410 of 5326
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

I wil ,I will I'm just freaked out on the complexity of this unit , soooooo many options, just leads me to believe there are more chances of screwing something up and not getting full potential .

as the saying goes, Rome wasn't built in a day, so don't try to understand every setting or option all at once. get your basic setup going to be functional with your components and TV, then you can start playing with things. you won't mess it up and as long as you try one thing at a time, you won't have to remember all the changes you made in case you want to revert back. and if you really do get lost and have no idea what you changed, you can always do a reset back to defaults and then re-do your MCACC cal (redoing MCACC is the downside of resets, so try to avoid doing this as a routine since it will get old wink.gif)

try the Hi Bit on and off, see if you can tell an audible difference. it'll depend on the recording, source, its sampling rate (CD 44.1, etc) or the Sound Retriever for making mp3's sound better. or the Digital Filter options, it's effect is very subtle, unless you were very actively, intently listening, you probably wouldn't notice a difference if you changed it in the middle of a movie wink.gif

all modern home theater receivers are swiss-army knives, all kinds of tools wink.gif some are useful in certain situations, some aren't and can be forgotten about. for example, there used to be a SACD Gain setting. I have hundreds of SACD's and never once felt the "need" to change the SACD Gain from its default. I think I tried it once, had no effect on what I heard, so left it alone all these years. now, I think Pioneer removed it. if you have rear or height speakers, then obviously the Virtual Rear & Virtual Height settings have no relevance, etc. you'll likely find that most of the swiss-army Audio & Video Parameters are just there for the occasional tweak and you can for the most part, leave them alone and just enjoy the entertainment biggrin.gif
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