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"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 148

post #4411 of 5345
I remember when I first got my SC37 in 2011 the settings where overwhelming. After using it for awhile and reading the manual everything became easy as abc. smile.gif


@randyc1

The reason there's an option for on and off is because some people don't like extra processing in their signal. Choice is a good thing.
Edited by saprano - 9/8/13 at 10:07pm
post #4412 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

as the saying goes, Rome wasn't built in a day, so don't try to understand every setting or option all at once. get your basic setup going to be functional with your components and TV, then you can start playing with things. you won't mess it up and as long as you try one thing at a time, you won't have to remember all the changes you made in case you want to revert back. and if you really do get lost and have no idea what you changed, you can always do a reset back to defaults and then re-do your MCACC cal (redoing MCACC is the downside of resets, so try to avoid doing this as a routine since it will get old wink.gif)

....

With the newer models you can save your MCACC settings in the several save slots that are available, so one might not even need to do a reset.
After running MCACC one can save that to the other slots, then copy it back to the original one, and voila no need to run MCACC again. smile.gif
post #4413 of 5345
^
that's true smile.gif
post #4414 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoughlan View Post

Thanks very much for your helpful advice Steve. Your middle post solved the problem as I was expecting the reverb 'after' data to vary between different types of calibration. Your explanation has clarified that for me thank you. Which leads me to two other questions I have about MCACC:

1) How do you determine which of "symmetry", "all channel adjust", and "front align" is the best EQ. Just from listening, I have a tendency to prefer the "all channel adjust" calibration. Subjectively, it seems a bit more lively than symmetry, and more balanced than "front align".

2) My second problem is that my hearing isn't perfect, and I do have to listen at moderate levels to appreciate dialogue. Also, I live in a flat and have to be considerate of noise for neighbours. After running the MCACC calibration my system (Pioneer BDP-450, Pioneer SC-2022k, KEF KHT3005SE) is sounding good, but listening at reference levels is not ideal in my environment. The dynamic range is just too great and to hear the dialogue I have to notch the volume up, only to rapidly turn it back down again for every loud noise, explosion etc. I have tried the Dynamic Range Control, Dolby Loudness, and the Pioneer Dialogue Enhancement and Auto Level Control. None of which helps significantly. My old Onkyo TX-SR608 was fine in this regard as it had a "Dynamic Volume" function that worked well, introducing different levels of compression. This was great for late night listening. Is there another feature on my Pioneer that I can try? Or, some modification to MCACC I can make to improve matters? Hope you can help, as it's right hand down on the volume knob, back again, up, down, up, down, like a fiddler's elbow at the moment!

Thanks, Simon


I have a similar issue with regard to my hearing, which is somewhat impaired for higher frequencies (ie: movie dialogue). I got past that issue by running Full Auto MCAAC, and then going into the Manual MCAAC menu, and increasing the upper frequency EQ for the center channel speaker, which is where most voices come from in movie soundtracks. It might also help to manually boost the level of that center channel speaker by a db or so to further emphasize the centre channel content. Although this DOES affect the overall automated MCAAC settings (since you are manually overriding some of the settings), the effect to me is minimal and it does really help to "clean up" movie dialogue and perhaps allow you to turn off the captions.
post #4415 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjkelch View Post

I have a similar issue with regard to my hearing, which is somewhat impaired for higher frequencies (ie: movie dialogue). I got past that issue by running Full Auto MCAAC, and then going into the Manual MCAAC menu, and increasing the upper frequency EQ for the center channel speaker, which is where most voices come from in movie soundtracks. It might also help to manually boost the level of that center channel speaker by a db or so to further emphasize the centre channel content. Although this DOES affect the overall automated MCAAC settings (since you are manually overriding some of the settings), the effect to me is minimal and it does really help to "clean up" movie dialogue and perhaps allow you to turn off the captions.

Also a reminder that you can have more than one preset for mccac.

In addition to that there is also the app on mobile devices to increase the center channel speaker output, subwoofer etc. I always turn mine up from here.
post #4416 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Not having Auddysee is no big problem. I feel MCACC is a better system. The MCACC will set filters for 3 frequencies, bandwidth and gain/attenuation. This is the exact same thing a Parametric Equalizer does but, it only goes to 63 Hz. There is only 2 things to do under 63 Hz, 1) bass boost and 2) cut one peak. That is it !!!! I have a PEQ and have found doing anymore will only make things worse. MCACC does everything else including addressing the peak under 63 Hz at the next harmonic which is more of what we hear. 95% of subwoofers on the market already have a bass boost built in.

The talk about Pioneer not addressing the subwoofer is mis-information and repeated rumor. Addressing the peak under 63 Hz can take away the mid bass slam. The frequency band used universally is 20 Hz to 20 kHz. So, we are talking about the band from 20 Hz to 63 Hz, this is an extremely small band. Pioneer dose not call it sub EQ, they call it standing wave control/correction.

+10.

We can calibrate the sub using the SW filters. Though obviously only to 63hz. I use the filters to tame some bad peaks from about 60hz to 90hz. I let MCACC do it's thing then i go in and adjust. MCACC likes to use the same SW settings for all channels. In my room with my speakers it mostly calibrates 150hz and above. Only once did it ever touch 63hz. I use all 3 filters at 63hz, 78z, and 101hz.

You can even get a little under 63hz by using a Q of 2 so it affects a wide frequency range.

I'm not really missing Audyssey.
post #4417 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobdude View Post

Also a reminder that you can have more than one preset for mccac.

In addition to that there is also the app on mobile devices to increase the center channel speaker output, subwoofer etc. I always turn mine up from here.

A good EQ tip is cut rather than boost. Knocking out some bass will also make dialogue clearer. Or lowering the front speaker a couple of db. will also help make the dialogue standout better.smile.gif

MCACC uses the same SW settings due to total system integration. This usually work well.smile.gif
post #4418 of 5345
Another reason for having symmetry vs all channel adjust is when you have a mix if speakers. I gather most of you own speakers as a 5.1 set, but as someone who has installed more than 300 Pioneer amps in my life, all-channel adjust us great for a balanced sound field with a mix of speakers (ie. JBL horns in front, Polk audio center, tannoy surrounds).

In cases of all speakers from same family, symmetry is generally slightly better (more dynamics preserved).

Just my 2cents.
post #4419 of 5345
But you're not taking in account the room acoustics. I get your same speakers point but we all don't have a perfectly symmetrical room. One side might have a shelf and a couch and the other a window or a bare wall. ACA calibrates each speaker for that.
post #4420 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

But you're not taking in account the room acoustics. I get your same speakers point but we all don't have a perfectly symmetrical room. One side might have a shelf and a couch and the other a window or a bare wall. ACA calibrates each speaker for that.

Actually, symmetry should adjust for that. All channel adjust is more heavy handed on the EQ of the system.
post #4421 of 5345
Symmetry EQ's the main and surround speakers the same.
post #4422 of 5345
Sorry saprano, I believe that is incorrect. Symmetry applies the same EQ to each PAIR of speaker (Left = Right). So front left will have same EQ as front right, and rear left will have same EQ as rear right, but front and rear can be different.

Dan.
post #4423 of 5345
Yes that's exactly what i ment.

If your room is irregular symmetry wont EQ the left speaker differentially from the right for this. Same for surround. Each side might have something near the speaker which all channel adjust will EQ for. In my room symmetry doesn't sound right.
post #4424 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Yes that's exactly what i ment.

If your room is irregular symmetry wont EQ the left speaker differentially from the right for this. Same for surround. Each side might have something near the speaker which all channel adjust will EQ for. In my room symmetry doesn't sound right.

Yes it will. Symmetry "balances" the left to right, not apply the same EQ to left and right! Get it?
post #4425 of 5345
Has anyone posted " REW" measurements Of their " Before ( no EQ) and After" MCACC EQ ???
Edited by randyc1 - 9/17/13 at 2:48pm
post #4426 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeephok View Post

Yes it will. Symmetry "balances" the left to right, not apply the same EQ to left and right! Get it?

Mmmm, nope... I followed the SC-05/25, SC-07/27 and MCACC thread for close to five years now, and Symmetry has always been understood as applying same correction to each left-right pair. Here's what the SC-27 manual says on this (page 110):
Quote:
SYMMETRY (default) implements symmetric correction for each pair of left and right speakers to flatten the frequency-amplitude characteristics.
ALL CH ADJ is a ‘flat’ setting where all the speakers are set individually so no special weighting is given to any one channel.
FRONT ALIGN sets all speakers in accordance with the front speaker settings (no equalization is applied to the front left and right channels).

Now, I agree that "symmetric correction" may not be the most descriptive terms, but when compared to "All ch adj" saying "all the speakers are set individually", it becomes (a little) more clear. One easy way to test this is to do a Symmetry MCACC run and look at the settings for each left/right pair, they should be identical.

Dan.
post #4427 of 5345
There are pix of my system before and after MCACC someplace, probably in the SC-27 thread. And I am sure there are many others. I did not use REW, however, but R+D (a different, arguably more powerful, but definitely more expensive program).
post #4428 of 5345
Took first venture into MCACC this evening. Pretty interesting. Some simple questions first to get me started.

1. The mic cable is not long enough to go from the receiver to my 'true' listening position. Assume it's just fine to go to Radio Shack and get a 2' foot extension?

2. Regarding placement of the mic, the manual says not to set it on anything soft like a couch. My main listening position is on my couch and the couch is very deep (I would say at least 2-3'). Tonight, due to length of mic cable I set it in front of the couch and the speaker distances for front channels are all about 3' shorter than actual measured distance. Should I use a tripod and put the mic on the couch closer to my listening position or should I leave the tripod in front of the couch (3' closer than where my ears will be). I cannot place the mic behind the couch because the couch is against a wall.

3. Is there a minimum distance the mic should be from the back wall? At ear level the mic will be slightly above the back of the couch cushions but will be within 1.5' of back wall. Again, is it ok to put mic on a tripod and put tripod on the couch and is it ok to have mic within 1.5' of back wall or should I move it forward a bit on the couch?

Thanks!
post #4429 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCF34 View Post

Took first venture into MCACC this evening. Pretty interesting. Some simple questions first to get me started.

1. The mic cable is not long enough to go from the receiver to my 'true' listening position. Assume it's just fine to go to Radio Shack and get a 2' foot extension?
Do it, any compatible, extension cable up to 12' will work fine..
Quote:
2. Regarding placement of the mic, the manual says not to set it on anything soft like a couch. My main listening position is on my couch and the couch is very deep (I would say at least 2-3'). Tonight, due to length of mic cable I set it in front of the couch and the speaker distances for front channels are all about 3' shorter than actual measured distance. Should I use a tripod and put the mic on the couch closer to my listening position or should I leave the tripod in front of the couch (3' closer than where my ears will be). I cannot place the mic behind the couch because the couch is against a wall.
The mic position should be @ the listener's position and ear level. Using a tripod is a great idea.
Quote:
3. Is there a minimum distance the mic should be from the back wall? At ear level the mic will be slightly above the back of the couch cushions but will be within 1.5' of back wall. Again, is it ok to put mic on a tripod and put tripod on the couch and is it ok to have mic within 1.5' of back wall or should I move it forward a bit on the couch?
Use trial and error, see which mic position sounds better to your ears.


Just my $0.05... 👍😉
post #4430 of 5345
I use a boom mic stand so it can sit on the floor and yet the mic is positioned where my ears would be.
post #4431 of 5345
I use a tripod sitting where my butt goes with the height at where my ears would be.

MCF34, as a tip, also aim the mic at the ceiling, flat & not tilted forward or backwards so that no direction is emphasized or de-emphasized. if you can, step out of the immediate area where the mic is, even out of the room if you can just aim the remote to control things smile.gif even your body near the mic can influence how it measures low freq's.

Pioneer's tips they have in the manuals are much better than they used to be (which was nothing). but they aren't perfect.

if you have a tripod around, that will suffice, but I think the mic boom idea is even better.

the basic calibration in Auto MCACC is Symmetry but you might want to do the Full MCACC which will do all 3 presets: Symmetry, All Channels Adjust & Front Aligned. plus Full MCACC will do the Phase Control delays and Standing Wave filters for you.

let us know how it goes and if you have more questions.
post #4432 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

There are pix of my system before and after MCACC someplace, probably in the SC-27 thread. And I am sure there are many others. I did not use REW, however, but R+D (a different, arguably more powerful, but definitely more expensive program).

Love to see those REW graphs, before and after !
post #4433 of 5345
They aren't REW, as I said, and a search should turn up the pix. Unless that was directed at others who do use REW?

Why are you asking, to verify what MCACC does, just curious???
post #4434 of 5345
Yes i would like to see what others are achieving with EQ ??



Im a newbie to MCACC but can anyone explain these graphs?

Did the Full Auto MCACC, then reajusted to small ,corrected distance ,Levels , did the Save All SP and redid MCACC


This is with just Left Speaker

Blue = Direct ,EQ ON

Green = Direct , EQ OFF

Red = Pure Direct ,..NO EQ








post #4435 of 5345
Randyc1, it looks like you are measuring at way too low of a SPL for meaningful results. Normal background noise in a room is somewhere around 40 dB. You need to raise the level to st least 75 dB or even better 80 dB. What mic are you using with REW?
post #4436 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD1225 View Post

Randyc1, it looks like you are measuring at way too low of a SPL for meaningful results. Normal background noise in a room is somewhere around 40 dB. You need to raise the level to st least 75 dB or even better 80 dB. What mic are you using with REW?

Ok i will redo with higher 80db level and see if results are similar .

EMC 8000 pointed up at MLP
post #4437 of 5345
Not sure if this is a MCACC question or not, but have an SC-63 and did full MCACC. Center channel dialogue volume for broadcast is fine (center channel set to -3.5 and left and right set to -1.5). Now I put a DVD in (The Matrix) played through my PS3 and it sounded awesome, but the center channel sounded pretty soft and found myself using the Center Channel booster from the app. Is there a way to have channel settings for one source and different channel settings (say bump center channel a db or 2) for a different source? If so, can you have it so each source automatically switches to that setting when the source input is selected? Thanks!
post #4438 of 5345
Note to newbies: I can't stress enough how important a tripod or similar device is for using the microphone and running room calibration. Also, remove all bodies (dead or alive) and noises of all types and volume. If a pin drops, that mic will pick it up. Heed warning or suffer the consequences. tongue.gif

A note: I used to have all 5 of my satellite speakers in perfect symmetry in a rectangle room. It didn't sound as good when using All Channel Adjust. Now, I'm in a different room with the same speakers and all are in perfect symmetry except for the left surround channel which is further from my ear. It now sounds better with All Channel Adjust than it does with Symmetry. So, I agree what others (Don H "The Man") are Posting on how these two configurations should work. This is with having several years experience since the purchase of my SC-07. Yes, I've spent many thousands of hours...way too many to count. smile.gif
post #4439 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by info_dan View Post

Mmmm, nope... I followed the SC-05/25, SC-07/27 and MCACC thread for close to five years now, and Symmetry has always been understood as applying same correction to each left-right pair. Here's what the SC-27 manual says on this (page 110):
Now, I agree that "symmetric correction" may not be the most descriptive terms, but when compared to "All ch adj" saying "all the speakers are set individually", it becomes (a little) more clear. One easy way to test this is to do a Symmetry MCACC run and look at the settings for each left/right pair, they should be identical.

Dan.

Yep.

I've played with every setting MCACC, and my receiver, has to offer. And still am.
post #4440 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by randyc1 View Post

Yes i would like to see what others are achieving with EQ ??



Im a newbie to MCACC but can anyone explain these graphs?

Did the Full Auto MCACC, then reajusted to small ,corrected distance ,Levels , did the Save All SP and redid MCACC


This is with just Left Speaker

Blue = Direct ,EQ ON

Green = Direct , EQ OFF

Red = Pure Direct ,..NO EQ









What is the point of running MCACC if you're just going to change the level and distance settings after the calibration?
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