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"OFFICIAL" Pioneer MCACC thread - Page 159

post #4741 of 5345
It's probably been asked many times, but this thread is way too long and several searches came up empty to find a current link to the MCACC Manual, whose link in the first post is 404. Plus it would help anyone else looking to have a fresh post later in the thread with a current working link. That is if the listing still exists? Looking on the Pioneer site yielded nothing.

So anyone have a current link to the MCACC Manual?

TIA . . .
. . . fb
post #4742 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarmerBob View Post

It's probably been asked many times, but this thread is way too long and several searches came up empty to find a current link to the MCACC Manual, whose link in the first post is 404. Plus it would help anyone else looking to have a fresh post later in the thread with a current working link. That is if the listing still exists? Looking on the Pioneer site yielded nothing.

So anyone have a current link to the MCACC Manual?

TIA . . .
. . . fb

You're kidding us right?

Pioneer MCACC Manual - first result using that search term in Google.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pioneer+mcacc+manual&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
post #4743 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

You're kidding us right?

Pioneer MCACC Manual - first result using that search term in Google.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pioneer+mcacc+manual&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Not at all. I got the same results on my first Google search and if you'll notice the returns are for the PC based software, years old and manuals for other units. Not the MCACC Manual mentioned in the first post.

Did you go through the returns and see where they led? Or point out the one I missed that was the actual manual that is spoken of in the first post. Or is it a fictitious document?
post #4744 of 5345
^^
that is the manual referred to in #1. there is no other.

how to interpret the reverb results and group delay is explained in the PC Software Manual. so that is what people refer to for many years.
post #4745 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarmerBob View Post

Not at all. I got the same results on my first Google search and if you'll notice the returns are for the PC based software, years old and manuals for other units. Not the MCACC Manual mentioned in the first post.

Did you go through the returns and see where they led? Or point out the one I missed that was the actual manual that is spoken of in the first post. Or is it a fictitious document?

If you prefer I can share with you copies that are even older, but say the same thing. I have three different copies from several different models. PM me your email if you want them............
post #4746 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

If you prefer I can share with you copies that are even older, but say the same thing. I have three different copies from several different models. PM me your email if you want them............

yes, there's been several revisions of the document as the software was revised, going back to early 2000's.
post #4747 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

yes, there's been several revisions of the document as the software was revised, going back to early 2000's.

Yep. The latest one shows the same thing as the graphics on my iPad, which is what I posted a few posts above. You don't even need a computer if you have an iPad, although you get a few extra features the graphics are the same.
post #4748 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

If you prefer I can share with you copies that are even older, but say the same thing. I have three different copies from several different models. PM me your email if you want them............

Is there a separate manual as implied by the link posted that now goes 404 or is it a part of the current manuals that the 1222 should contain? The latest version would be preferable, as I trust is would apply to the 1222 more so. All that I am looking to do is follow what the lead post and this forum instructions say and they keep referring to pages in this manual. It is this manual that I am looking for, because as a whole the results that I am getting from MCACC are not good.

Thank you for the offer. I will be PMing.
post #4749 of 5345
I just goT the sc-63, and was testing out the mcacc, but i cant seem to get my sub to work

plugged the coax into the LFE port on the klipsch sub, and the other end into the preamp sub 1 plugin


i do the auto levels adjustment with the mic, and the sub doesnt seem to be outputting anything. however if i go to adjust db manually, you can hear it pulsing with each increase in db, but there is no bass humm.


i dont know whats going on here, as the sub should be working fine. tapping the other end of the coax will make it rumble just fine as well. i tried both sub 1 and sub 2 ports for the preamp section. new monoprice sub coax cable

set speakers to small, cross over is at 100

still nothing comes out of the sub... when i increase the volume on the receiver the sub seems to be pulsing with each increase step in volume, which is really weird. any ideas?
post #4750 of 5345
I have an SC-75 in transit. Coming from a 2003 Onkyo TX-SR800.

I am reading in to learn and trying to determine what to do with the sub volume knob when I run MCACC.
I will be 7.1 and will go into the LFE jack from the SC-75 Sub out 1.

I also read most folks set their speakers or the satellites to small. My speakers handle lows really well. They are set to large now and its great.

I would be grateful if the experienced MCACC users here would look at the speaker info & specs in my signature and recommend how to make my 1st run at it. Any words on it would be great.

Thanks.
post #4751 of 5345
If advanced mcacc calibrates down to 63hz, speakers set to small, crossover set to 100hz, is it equalizing the sub from 63-100hz or is it ignoring anything below crossover point?
In particular, using a VSX-1123 receiver. Thanks!smile.gif
post #4752 of 5345
Quote:
I am reading in to learn and trying to determine what to do with the sub volume knob when I run MCACC.
I will be 7.1 and will go into the LFE jack from the SC-75 Sub out 1.

Are you asking where to set the subs amp gain or the trim in the receiver? The first depends on your sub/amp. They normally have a starting recommendation unless it's a DIY type deal.
Quote:
I also read most folks set their speakers or the satellites to small. My speakers handle lows really well. They are set to large now and its great.

This is a personal decision only you can make. Try both.

My speakers handle lows very very well. So well I've gone without knowing the sub was off when listening to music at normal levels. I have JBL 3677 pro cinema speakers. 15" driver that extends down 30-40 Hz (I forget exactly).

My choice is to set them to small, 80 xover. Less beating on the amp, and conforms to THX specs which doesn't mean much I suppose.

Good luck.
post #4753 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2therock View Post

I would be grateful if the experienced MCACC users here would look at the speaker info & specs in my signature and recommend how to make my 1st run at it. Any words on it would be great.
Thanks.

I would start by setting the sub volume no greater than 50% and probably 25-30% is even better. run Auto MCACC and see what the sub channel levels are set. ideally, it should be reasonably close to 0 dB, no large gain or cut. if the level is significantly greater than 0 dB then reduce the sub volume and re-run. if the level is a significantly negative, less than 0, then increase the volume a bit and re-run. having it +- 1 to 2dB is not to bad, but if it's close to the max/mins (+-9 dB) then you can adjust the sub volume accordingly and not make the preamp section boost or cut the level as much.

and even though your speakers have good bass response (I looked at your post info) they are still not in low LFE territory which extends to 20 HZ and even below. some discs have sub-20 output (The Incredibles DVD had measured bass down to 10 Hz or below during some scenes). your sub is much better suited to handle this, IF it's a good sub wink.gif

setting speakers to Small also reduces the stress on amps trying to reproduce those dynamic sudden low freq effects.

I've run my front Magnepans as Large since they can reproduce to 34-35 HZ and finally took the advice to set them to Small for movies with a Xover of 80 HZ. my Maggies used as surrounds and center are more bass limited and have to be set to Small.

in your case, the fronts are the most capable, but even though your center and surrounds are good, they are not as capable as a subwoofer so IMHO, you should set the surrounds & center to Small, try the fronts both ways and use either 80 (preferable) but no less than 60 HZ as your crossover. I'd still pick 80 because the Xover is not a hard cut-off but a rolled off cut. your surrounds & center will still be handling some of the bass < 80 HZ but their response will be rolled off. Higher than 80, no and not needed.

for music, if your speakers have a particular bass sound that you like, you can try it both ways and see which you prefer. then you can always switch the fronts back & forth from Small to Large and not need to re-run MCACC.

but I would start listening evaluations with 80 HZ Xover, fronts as Large, fronts as Small, but surrounds & center definitely set to Small since they won't go as low as your fronts and definitely not be able to reproduce all the content in the LFE channel (LFE channel freq band being 20-120 Hz and even < 20 depending on the mastering) no "normal" speakers are capable of < 20 HZ and most cannot adequately go to 20 HZ wink.gif
post #4754 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainsworth View Post

If advanced mcacc calibrates down to 63hz, speakers set to small, crossover set to 100hz, is it equalizing the sub from 63-100hz or is it ignoring anything below crossover point?
In particular, using a VSX-1123 receiver. Thanks!smile.gif

MCACC will not EQ the sub, at all.

I don't think MCACC will apply any EQ to the mains if your xover is above the 50 Hz setting. I know for sure it won't let you adjust the 63 Hz band in pro eq.

What MCACC does do is apply what it calls a standing wave filter which is Pioneer talk for parametric EQ with no option to boost. In other words it only cuts down peaks in the frequency response.

The standing wave is applied the main, center, and subwoofer channels. But here's the thing..... it applies the same frequencies to all three channels and it doesn't dig down past your xover point.
post #4755 of 5345
Thanks Guys, all very interesting.

My Sub rear palel

post #4756 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2therock View Post

Thanks Guys, all very interesting.

My Sub rear palel



No gain/volume knob?

Turn the xover all the way to 150. Start with phase at 0.
post #4757 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

No gain/volume knob?

Turn the xover all the way to 150. Start with phase at 0.

Sorry, here is the front.



Thanks

Just for curiosity, I'll admit for years I have been running a line out from my Onkyo's sub out and a y-splitter to the subs red and white jacks with the gain @ somewhat less than half, and as you see it on the rear panel. Great bass. It stays proportionate with the receiver volume control nicely. Is this a sin? We did this because we could not get happy with the LFE on the Onkyo. 11 years ago its all coming back to me now. As soon as we did this we got detailed clean bass.

I guess this is crazy stupid but............What would happen if one went from both of the SC-75 sub outs, one to the red and one to white jack? eek.gif
post #4758 of 5345
Hello. Thought you guys could help. I have a vsx 52. All of a sudden I've been losing sound in the left or right speaker randomly.

At first I thought it was the wires. They were fine. Then I went into my account and went to manual sp level. The speaker that didn't have sound played a noise.

As soon as I exited the sound returned on that speaker. This pops up once in a while and started about 3 weeks ago. Coincidently when I got my ps4 and I use the headphone plug in the controller. I think tat is just coincidence but who knows.

Today it happened on the right speaker. Was always left before. And no ps4 in between outages. I've seen using a new memory that I copied my settings but bumped up center channel since we have a baby and I need to run the system at a lower level.

Using directv. No changes to the system anywhere that I'm aware of.

Any thoughts?
post #4759 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

This has been tested and shown previously:
1. Pioneer's crossover is applied to all speakers.
2. LFE over the crossover frequency is lost.
3. If mains are "Large" only LFE comes from the sub.
4. If mains are "Large" then "Plus" engaged still sends bass to mains and sub.

Its not that i don't believe you, but can you provide a reference. I think "2" is a hopeless solution making Pioneer AVRs a non-option for me if that really holds true. Many movies have a lot of content in the LFE track around 100Hz. If that is lost or severely dampened when you set a mains crossover at 60 - 80 Hz, I believe that would impact the sound negatively.
post #4760 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

MCACC will not EQ the sub, at all.

I don't think MCACC will apply any EQ to the mains if your xover is above the 50 Hz setting. I know for sure it won't let you adjust the 63 Hz band in pro eq.

What MCACC does do is apply what it calls a standing wave filter which is Pioneer talk for parametric EQ with no option to boost. In other words it only cuts down peaks in the frequency response.

The standing wave is applied the main, center, and subwoofer channels. But here's the thing..... it applies the same frequencies to all three channels and it doesn't dig down past your xover point.

I never got why it did it that way, all channels are different. I have large peaks from 70hz to 90hz and it doesn't do anything about it. I have to manually bring them down myself.
post #4761 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

This has been tested and shown previously:
1. Pioneer's crossover is applied to all speakers.
2. LFE over the crossover frequency is lost.
3. If mains are "Large" only LFE comes from the sub.
4. If mains are "Large" then "Plus" engaged still sends bass to mains and sub.

Its not that i don't believe you, but can you provide a reference. I think "2" is a hopeless solution making Pioneer AVRs a non-option for me if that really holds true. Many movies have a lot of content in the LFE track around 100Hz. If that is lost or severely dampened when you set a mains crossover at 60 - 80 Hz, I believe that would impact the sound negatively.

I don't have links. I read it in this and other Pioneer threads, several times, from people whom I respect and did tests, then did my own tests to prove it to myself. I did have to find a test DVD that swept the LFE channel. I found a white paper on the Pioneer site several years ago that discussed their philosophy on MCACC and it mentioned the LFE channel, but when I last looked (probably months or a year ago) I could not find the paper on their website, and I do not appear to have a copy. Alas, a bunch of downloads from a few years ago were to my notebook, the one that the HD died... I would really like to have that paper (anybody else have a copy they could send, or a link?)

You say a "lot" of material at 100 Hz, others say virtually none (including some who actually do soundtrack mixing for a living IIRC). I read someplace, on either the THX or Dolby site, that the LFE is channel is often rolled off at 80 Hz to match their crossover guidelines for consumer mixes, and of course the mix engineer can add that content to the main L/R channels if desirable.

Of all the threads and debate I do not recall anyone saying they missed the LFE content from 80 to 120 Hz. (Note 120 Hz is the spec upper bound; IIRC the LFE track is actually encoded at a reduced bit rate.) My system is configured differently so I cannot say based upon personal experience. Note the 80 Hz roll-off is not a brick wall so some higher-frequency energy will still get through. I am not sure it is worth the worry; if it was big issue (a) there would be tons of posts about it and (b) Pioneer would change their scheme. For the record, I tested my SC-27, so have no data on whether or not they changed for later models. I have been told "no".

It is best not to depend on my memory; I am sure of myself but it is always best to do your own research. "I may be wrong but I am not uncertain" applies here.

Sorry I can't be more definitive - Don
post #4762 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

MCACC will not EQ the sub, at all.

I don't think MCACC will apply any EQ to the mains if your xover is above the 50 Hz setting. I know for sure it won't let you adjust the 63 Hz band in pro eq.

What MCACC does do is apply what it calls a standing wave filter which is Pioneer talk for parametric EQ with no option to boost. In other words it only cuts down peaks in the frequency response.

The standing wave is applied the main, center, and subwoofer channels. But here's the thing..... it applies the same frequencies to all three channels and it doesn't dig down past your xover point.

I never got why it did it that way, all channels are different. I have large peaks from 70hz to 90hz and it doesn't do anything about it. I have to manually bring them down myself.

The assumption is that the standing waves are room modes and thus the same for all speakers (independent of the speaker). However, I thought it depended upon the MCACC mode used (all/symmetry/front)? Honestly not sure. Like you, I dialed mine in manually using my test system, and ended up changing the PEQ settings to flatten the response.

A number of bass correction systems do not boost because boosting a null caused by a room mode (signal cancellation) may cause the sub to be massively over driven -- it would be way too loud in other parts of the room with almost no change at the listening position.
post #4763 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I don't have links. I read it in this and other Pioneer threads, several times, from people whom I respect and did tests, then did my own tests to prove it to myself. I did have to find a test DVD that swept the LFE channel. I found a white paper on the Pioneer site several years ago that discussed their philosophy on MCACC and it mentioned the LFE channel, but when I last looked (probably months or a year ago) I could not find the paper on their website, and I do not appear to have a copy. Alas, a bunch of downloads from a few years ago were to my notebook, the one that the HD died... I would really like to have that paper (anybody else have a copy they could send, or a link?)

You say a "lot" of material at 100 Hz, others say virtually none (including some who actually do soundtrack mixing for a living IIRC). I read someplace, on either the THX or Dolby site, that the LFE is channel is often rolled off at 80 Hz to match their crossover guidelines for consumer mixes, and of course the mix engineer can add that content to the main L/R channels if desirable.

Of all the threads and debate I do not recall anyone saying they missed the LFE content from 80 to 120 Hz. (Note 120 Hz is the spec upper bound; IIRC the LFE track is actually encoded at a reduced bit rate.) My system is configured differently so I cannot say based upon personal experience. Note the 80 Hz roll-off is not a brick wall so some higher-frequency energy will still get through. I am not sure it is worth the worry; if it was big issue (a) there would be tons of posts about it and (b) Pioneer would change their scheme. For the record, I tested my SC-27, so have no data on whether or not they changed for later models. I have been told "no".

It is best not to depend on my memory; I am sure of myself but it is always best to do your own research. "I may be wrong but I am not uncertain" applies here.

Sorry I can't be more definitive - Don

It's pretty easy for someone to test with the REW LFE output. I'll do it next time I have my gear hooked up for measuring...........
post #4764 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I found a white paper on the Pioneer site several years ago that discussed their philosophy on MCACC and it mentioned the LFE channel


you mean this? Pioneer's white paper on phase control & bass.

AES28PhaseCTL.pdf 694k .pdf file
post #4765 of 5345
Thank you Don for the detailed answer. Maybe I am exaggerating stating "a lot of movies...". However I did take take a look at the LFE channel on some of my movies in spectrumlab, and in those i did see a good deal of content in the upper end of the LFE range. Its entirely possible that the ones i looked at are anomalies not representing the general trend. It was a while back and i sadly don't recall the specifics, but i will revisit it soon. There might be good reasons to low pass the LFE channel and its possible the the pros outweigh the cons, but I still think its worth some consideration. My first thought is that you should either set the mains as "Large" or set them to "small" and chose a high-ish cross over point, as I dont see a 40 or 60 Hz being a good idea, if that is also the low pass point for the LFE track.
post #4766 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I don't have links. I read it in this and other Pioneer threads, several times, from people whom I respect and did tests, then did my own tests to prove it to myself. I did have to find a test DVD that swept the LFE channel. I found a white paper on the Pioneer site several years ago that discussed their philosophy on MCACC and it mentioned the LFE channel, but when I last looked (probably months or a year ago) I could not find the paper on their website, and I do not appear to have a copy. Alas, a bunch of downloads from a few years ago were to my notebook, the one that the HD died... I would really like to have that paper (anybody else have a copy they could send, or a link?)

You say a "lot" of material at 100 Hz, others say virtually none (including some who actually do soundtrack mixing for a living IIRC). I read someplace, on either the THX or Dolby site, that the LFE is channel is often rolled off at 80 Hz to match their crossover guidelines for consumer mixes, and of course the mix engineer can add that content to the main L/R channels if desirable.

Of all the threads and debate I do not recall anyone saying they missed the LFE content from 80 to 120 Hz. (Note 120 Hz is the spec upper bound; IIRC the LFE track is actually encoded at a reduced bit rate.) My system is configured differently so I cannot say based upon personal experience. Note the 80 Hz roll-off is not a brick wall so some higher-frequency energy will still get through. I am not sure it is worth the worry; if it was big issue (a) there would be tons of posts about it and (b) Pioneer would change their scheme. For the record, I tested my SC-27, so have no data on whether or not they changed for later models. I have been told "no".

It is best not to depend on my memory; I am sure of myself but it is always best to do your own research. "I may be wrong but I am not uncertain" applies here.

Sorry I can't be more definitive - Don

It's pretty easy for someone to test with the REW LFE output. I'll do it next time I have my gear hooked up for measuring...........

That'd be great! My test gear is still packed after packing and moving it to a friend's place for storage in case we were evac'd last summer (fires got too close! And burned out some on AVS members...)
post #4767 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post

Thank you Don for the detailed answer. Maybe I am exaggerating stating "a lot of movies...". However I did take take a look at the LFE channel on some of my movies in spectrumlab, and in those i did see a good deal of content in the upper end of the LFE range. Its entirely possible that the ones i looked at are anomalies not representing the general trend. It was a while back and i sadly don't recall the specifics, but i will revisit it soon. There might be good reasons to low pass the LFE channel and its possible the the pros outweigh the cons, but I still think its worth some consideration. My first thought is that you should either set the mains as "Large" or set them to "small" and chose a high-ish cross over point, as I dont see a 40 or 60 Hz being a good idea, if that is also the low pass point for the LFE track.

I have not done any sort of movie spectral analysis so have no real idea if you are right or wrong about LFE frequency content.

I did not know of the issue when I bought my receiver years ago, and the way my system is configured it is not an issue for me. I use an active crossover to stereo subs so to the AVR my mains are "large". Perhaps not the optimum for bass response (since the subs need to be close to the mains) but works for me.
post #4768 of 5345
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I found a white paper on the Pioneer site several years ago that discussed their philosophy on MCACC and it mentioned the LFE channel


you mean this? Pioneer's white paper on phase control & bass.

AES28PhaseCTL.pdf 694k .pdf file

Not sure, don't remember it being an AES paper but it might have been their posting of it, or a more layman's version of it. Whatever, I am very glad to have it and looking forward to reading it! Maybe tomorrow (bloody 12-hour workday due to last-minute conf call and need to practice tonight, argh).

Thanks very much!!! - Don
post #4769 of 5345
Attached is a REW measurement sweep sent direct to the sub over HDMI. This is with the crossover set at 80, 100, and 200hz. Looks like the crossover applies to the LFE channel.
Please ignore the enormous room node at 80ish hz.
The receiver is a Pioneer SC-1522
post #4770 of 5345
Thanks Radar

Can i take from your graph, that the content above the cross over point is simply discarded? I assume you didn't unplug the mains? If the mains were unplugged content might have been redirected to them without us being able to see it.
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