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What really makes a difference? (Big Plasmas)

post #1 of 278
Thread Starter 
I'm in the market of a new display. I'm replacing a 10 YO 60" Toshiba tube rear projector. In my situation size matters. My viewing position is 15-ish feet back from the screen. So to keep around the same screen area, and get some benefit from HD, If figure I need at least a 60" screen.

I've been going around in circles for years on this. I'm close to settling on the Samsung PN63A650.

I've considered and dismissed a number of other alternatives:

58" Panasonic (to small)
67" Samsung LED DLP (Geometry issues, uneven brightness across the screen, narrow viewing angle)
All other DLPs (light bulb, color wheel).
Varions 65" panels - Panasonic Plasma, Sharp LCD (too expensive).
Pioneer 60" Kuros (too expensive)

This left me with the 63" Samsung and the LG 60PG60. The sammy being a little bit bigger gives it the advantage.

Now reading some of the reviews of the 63" Samsungs (more the A760 - I haven't found a good professional review of the A650, and they seem like the same basic panel), it seems like the reviewers felt the Samsungs were weaker than some of the other panels, especially in black level, grey scale, and maybe color accuracy. Some of this is priced in. I knew the Kuros had better black level than anyone, and I give the Panny some points over the Samsung on picture quality.

But in reality, not having the panels side by side, is any of this going to make much of a difference. Given that I've been living for years with and aging SD projector with visible geometry and convergence problems, anything I'm going to get is going to be a quantum leap. Any of the other choices have their own tradeoffs (price, size, other PQ issues.) Should I keep going in circles waiting for the perfect panel that may or may not every hit the market, or should I just buy the damn Samsung. Is there anything on the horizon (say three months or so), I should wait for?

Moneywize, I figure I can get the Samsung for <$3500. Any other choices would need to be in that price range also.
post #2 of 278
Well, 2 things. Have you seen either 650 or 760 series 63" Samsungs?
Also, I believe Samsung will be releasing a new line of plasmas in the next couple of months. You may or may not wish to wait, and I suspect these new models will be more expensive.
In short, if you like what you see, buy it!
post #3 of 278
Seems like you already have your opinions set.
post #4 of 278
Have you considered a 1080p projo and screen? Do you have the room size for this combination?

Chris
post #5 of 278
I'd wait for the new models. You may find the black levels in the Samsungs inadequate coming from a CRT. The new Samsungs and Panasonics are supposed to be much better with black levels this year.

And honestly, you're not going to lose much in size going from a 60" TV to a 58". You'll hardly notice the difference. Since you've waited this long I'd just wait a few months and see. Just my opinion though.
post #6 of 278
Thread Starter 
I have the raw space, but the lighting/window situation and room configuration don't work for front projection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creemail View Post

Have you considered a 1080p projo and screen? Do you have the room size for this combination?

Chris
post #7 of 278
Samsung PN63A650 is a sweet unit and has a affordable price. Get one and do not look back
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post #8 of 278
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I'd wait for the new models. You may find the black levels in the Samsungs inadequate coming from a CRT. The new Samsungs and Panasonics are supposed to be much better with black levels this year.

I saw the PN63H760 last night. The picture looked fine, but the didn't have any decent material (some sort of Samsung demo disk).

I might want to see the new models. I dearly wish Panasonic would slot something in between the 58" and 65".

Quote:


And honestly, you're not going to lose much in size going from a 60" TV to a 58". You'll hardly notice the difference. Since you've waited this long I'd just wait a few months and see. Just my opinion though.

From 58" to 63" is pretty significant. Maybe like 20% of screen area.
post #9 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

I saw the PN63H760 last night. The picture looked fine, but the didn't have any decent material (some sort of Samsung demo disk).

I might want to see the new models. I dearly wish Panasonic would slot something in between the 58" and 65".



From 58" to 63" is pretty significant. Maybe like 20% of screen area.

Wait for the 65" Panny V10! You'll be glad you did
post #10 of 278
Thread Starter 
I tend to agrre with you, but...

As I said below, I've seen the A760, but I've never seen the A650 in person. From what I've read, both use essentially the same panel, the the A760 having more features (which I can't see ever needing), so I expect the picture would be much different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Samsung PN63A650 is a sweet unit and has a affordable price. Get one and do not look back
post #11 of 278
Thread Starter 
It's likely to still be in the $5-6K range. That takes it out of the competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jblevin View Post

Wait for the 65" Panny V10! You'll be glad you did
post #12 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

So to keep around the same screen area, and get some benefit from HD, If figure I need at least a 60" screen.

Going from SD to HD should swamp all other differences even if you've decided size is more important than PQ.
post #13 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

From 58" to 63" is pretty significant. Maybe like 20% of screen area.

18%

4:3 (1.33:1) NTSC mode [18.3% larger] 4:3 (1.33:1) NTSC mode
Your viewing area is 41.2 in(w) x 30.9 in(h)
Total viewing area is 1273.08 sq in.
This is the equivalent of a 51.5 inch 4:3 TV
Your viewing area is 37.9 in(w) x 28.4 in(h)
Total viewing area is 1076.36 sq in.
This is the equivalent of a 47.4 inch 4:3 TV

16:9 (1.78:1) native mode [18.0% larger] 16:9 (1.78:1) native mode
Your viewing area is 54.9 in(w) x 30.9 in(h)
Total viewing area is 1696.41 sq in.
This utilizes the full display of the 16:9 TV
Your viewing area is 50.6 in(w) x 28.4 in(h)
Total viewing area is 1437.04 sq in.
This utilizes the full display of the 16:9 TV

16:9 (1.85:1) letterbox mode [17.6% larger] 16:9 (1.85:1) letterbox mode
Your viewing area is 54.9 in(w) x 29.7 in(h)
The diagonal size is 62.4 in
Total viewing area is 1630.53 sq in.
Total area is 65.9 sq in. (3.9%) smaller than 1.78:1
Your viewing area is 50.6 in(w) x 27.4 in(h)
The diagonal size is 57.5 in
Total viewing area is 1386.44 sq in.
Total area is 50.6 sq in. (3.5%) smaller than 1.78:1

16:9 (2.35:1) letterbox mode [18.1% larger] 16:9 (2.35:1) letterbox mode
Your viewing area is 54.9 in(w) x 23.4 in(h)
The diagonal size is 59.7 in
Total viewing area is 1284.66 sq in.
Total area is 411.8 sq in. (24.3%) smaller than 1.78:1
Your viewing area is 50.6 in(w) x 21.5 in(h)
The diagonal size is 55.0 in
Total viewing area is 1087.9 sq in.
Total area is 349.1 sq in. (24.3%) smaller than 1.78:1
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post #14 of 278
Thread Starter 
That's the key question: What is the best size/PQ/cost trade off. Going to one extreme, is the 60" Elite Kuro's PQ improvement worth the extra $2500? If it is, I could fade the 3" smaller screen. I've seen it, and can't say I think so.

Now maybe if I had both panels side by side, and it jumped right out at me, I might think differently, but I tend to doubt it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Going from SD to HD should swamp all other differences even if you've decided size is more important than PQ.
post #15 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

I have the raw space, but the lighting/window situation and room configuration don't work for front projection.

I can understand. The Sony "Black Screen" increases contrast and said to provide image contrast more than five times better than conventional white screens in the presence of surrounding light.



However, you are limited up to around 63" - 65" based on your budget.

Chris
post #16 of 278
Get the 65" panny. I had a 61" crt rear projection. I replaced it with a 60" LCD. Due to lighting issues I went with plasma because I was tired of the sunlight washing the picture out. I went even bigger and am glad I did. If you've got the room and you've got lighting issues a plasma will hold up. I was on the edge between the Kuro and panasonic and I went with panny because I didn't think that the minor improvement in blacks was worth going with a smaller more expensive set. If you can't get it, just save up for a couple more months.

If size and only size is your only issue, then rear projection is the way to go. But the backlight just can't hang when there's any sunlight around. I have a friend who has a very nice SXRD which provides a very good picture. But even he admits that there's no point in even watching it during certain portions of the day when the sun is at it's brightest.
post #17 of 278
Considering your budget I'd go for the PN65a650. If you don't ming losing 3" then consider the Kuro 6020fd at only $300-400 more.
post #18 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

reading some of the reviews of the 63" Samsungs (more the A760 - I haven't found a good professional review of the A650, and they seem like the same basic panel), it seems like the reviewers felt the Samsungs were weaker than some of the other panels, especially in black level, grey scale, and maybe color accuracy. Some of this is priced in. I knew the Kuros had better black level than anyone, and I give the Panny some points over the Samsung on picture quality.

But in reality, not having the panels side by side, is any of this going to make much of a difference. Given that I've been living for years with and aging SD projector with visible geometry and convergence problems, anything I'm going to get is going to be a quantum leap. Any of the other choices have their own tradeoffs (price, size, other PQ issues.) Should I keep going in circles waiting for the perfect panel that may or may not every hit the market, or should I just buy the damn Samsung.

A display's video processor is what primarily separates one PDP from another; which is why Pioneer PDPs generally cost more than Panasonic or Samsung fixed pixel displays.

However, the reality is that all big screen TVs render a fairly pleasing HD image and once the display is set up in your home you won't have any buyer's remorse if you get a Samsung PDP.
post #19 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

I have the raw space, but the lighting/window situation and room configuration don't work for front projection.


In that case, go with one of the plasmas. Above all avoid the rear projection Samsung. Rear projection has always been an inferior technology, a sort of "poor man's big screen". I have never liked RPTVs for the following reasons:

1) Viewing angle must be restricted to dead center. LCDs are often criticized for this, but even the best RPTV is, in this respect, far worse than any LCD available today.

2) Uneven brightness at reasonable viewing distances. RPTVs always have a hot spot in the center, while the picture is much dimmer around the edges. This is, of course, caused by the sensitivity to viewing angles mentioned in #1. True, you can sit far away to avoid most of this, but this defeats the whole purpose of the large screen. Why not just save money and buy a much smaller plasma and sit closer up?

3) RPTV pictures have, IMO, a very murky look, due to the translucent screen. This translucent screen has never worked well, and is the "Achilles heel" of that technology.

4) RPTVs are bulkier. This is, of course, nowhere nearly as bad as it used to be though.

The RPTV is an obsolete technology, and only a few manufacturers even still make them. You should look again at the plasmas. The Pioneers are the best, but if they are too expensive, try the Panasonics. They also make a 65" plasma. If these are all too expensive reconsider a smaller plasma. In any case, I would even consider a "bargain basement" LCD better than any RPTV! In a couple of years you might have trouble even giving your RPTV away!
post #20 of 278
Thread Starter 
^
You're correct. I considered and rejected a couple different rear projectors, most recently the Samsung 67" LED DLP. I just couldn't get past looking at it with its uneven brightness and geometry issues, and the plasmas/lcd panels next to it with none of those problems.

It's a shame though, if it worked it would have suited me well. But it doesn't.

Right now, I feel the Samsung 63" plasma is the best trade off for me. I want to get some more feedback on the models in question before I pull the trigger.
post #21 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

^
You're correct. I considered and rejected a couple different rear projectors, most recently the Samsung 67" LED DLP. I just couldn't get past looking at it with its uneven brightness and geometry issues, and the plasmas/lcd panels next to it with none of those problems.

It's a shame though, if it worked it would have suited me well. But it doesn't.

Right now, I feel the Samsung 63" plasma is the best trade off for me. I want to get some more feedback on the models in question before I pull the trigger.

Based on test I've seen on other Samsung units, the processor will be excellent. Perhaps the best of the top 3 plasmas.
I haven't spent as much time looking at the 63A650 as the 58A650. If it matches the 58 with a bigger screen to boot, you'll never regret your purchase.
post #22 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

^
You're correct. I considered and rejected a couple different rear projectors, most recently the Samsung 67" LED DLP. I just couldn't get past looking at it with its uneven brightness and geometry issues, and the plasmas/lcd panels next to it with none of those problems.

It's a shame though, if it worked it would have suited me well. But it doesn't.

Right now, I feel the Samsung 63" plasma is the best trade off for me. I want to get some more feedback on the models in question before I pull the trigger.


Sounds like an excellent choice!
post #23 of 278
Thread Starter 
You'd have to see my apt to see why this wouldn't work. I have a 17" ceiling in the viewing area, and it is flanked by 12" windows. It would never be dark enough for front projection in daylight, and not being able to use the ceiling makes mounting that much more difficult. Also the screen would have to be mounted on a brick wall, which I don't to have to drill into, and wouldn't look good with a screen on it.

It's going to be a flat panel. If the room were different, I would entertain the concept of front projection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creemail View Post

I can understand. The Sony "Black Screen" increases contrast and said to provide image contrast more than five times better than conventional white screens in the presence of surrounding light.


However, you are limited up to around 63" - 65" based on your budget.

Chris
post #24 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

That's the key question: What is the best size/PQ/cost trade off. Going to one extreme, is the 60" Elite Kuro's PQ improvement worth the extra $2500? If it is, I could fade the 3" smaller screen. I've seen it, and can't say I think so.

Now maybe if I had both panels side by side, and it jumped right out at me, I might think differently, but I tend to doubt it.

It is worth every red cent, and more, the Sammy's and Pannys do not even compare, Pio Kuro is in a league of it's own, the major leagues instead of the minor leagues, and a PRO151FD can be had for $5,000.
post #25 of 278
you can pick up the 6020 for less then 4k and as much as i love my samsung plasma I would much rather have a pioneer.
post #26 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtmorgan23 View Post

you can pick up the 6020 for less then 4k and as much as i love my samsung plasma I would much rather have a pioneer.

+1. I got mine for $3589 shipped, authorized and TAX-FREE.

Show me a better deal right now.

James
post #27 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybertec View Post

It is worth every red cent, and more, the Sammy's and Pannys do not even compare, Pio Kuro is in a league of it's own, the major leagues instead of the minor leagues, and a PRO151FD can be had for $5,000.

You know, while this statement may initially smack of hyperbole, after ingestion, I find it to be rather true, IMO.

James
post #28 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybertec View Post

It is worth every red cent, and more, the Sammy's and Pannys do not even compare, Pio Kuro is in a league of it's own, the major leagues instead of the minor leagues, and a PRO151FD can be had for $5,000.

You know, while this statement may initially smack of hyperbole, after ingestion, I find it to be rather true.

James
post #29 of 278
Thread Starter 
Okayokayokay, I'll give the 6020 another look. I tend to think I'll still end up with the Sammy.
post #30 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

Okayokayokay, I'll give the 6020 another look. I tend to think I'll still end up with the Sammy.

I tend to think your instincts are telling you what your best choice is
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