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Samsung vs. Panasonic black levels: Why does Samsung look darker in store?  

post #1 of 98
1/26/09 at 4:41pm
Thread Starter 
Today I went to Best Buy and Circuit City, and spent about an hour looking at tvs. Best Buy had the tvs on the wall, it was a dim lighting, not as dark as you would have it at home, but not nearly as bright as Costco. They had a 1080p Panasonic next to a 1080p Samsung, and a Kuro. To me the blacks of the Samsung looked "blacker". They weren't Kuro black but then again whites were brighter than the Kuro. Now, I know from reading here that the Panasonics have measured darker black levels than the Samsungs, but why did the Samsung blacks look deeper to me? When the signal faded to black, the Samsung screen looked black, while the Panasonic looked greenish-gray. Same thing with letterbox movies. The bars looked blacker on the Samsung. Are my eyes deceiving me? The only thing I can think of is that the filter on the Panny screen deflects light in a way that makes blacks look worse, or the Samsung has a filter that makes blacks look deeper than a machine will measure them. I also thought the Samsung picture looked a little crisper overall. I went to Circuit City and they had a 550 hooked up directly to Blu-ray playing an animated movie and it looked stunning. They also had a calibrated 58a550 next to a 85u Panny and again the Samsung picture looked as black if not blacker, and very sharp. Is there really that much of a difference between the two when you get them home? I had a 2007 Samsung 720p plasma and the blacks were nothing to brag about, IR was horrible, so I'm a bit confused. Anyone have similar experiences? The price they have on their 50a510 model this week (front page ad) is very tempting.

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post #2 of 98
1/26/09 at 4:44pm
Stin I can't tell you why but that's why I picked a 650 over a 800u.
They weren't calibrated but I did the best I could with adjustments based on settings gleaned from this sight for both.
post #3 of 98
1/26/09 at 4:54pm
Unless you've calibrated both, what you see in a store doesn't mean a thing.
post #4 of 98
1/26/09 at 5:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Today I went to Best Buy and Circuit City, and spent about an hour looking at tvs. Best Buy had the tvs on the wall, it was a dim lighting, not as dark as you would have it at home, but not nearly as bright as Costco. They had a 1080p Panasonic next to a 1080p Samsung, and a Kuro. To me the blacks of the Samsung looked "blacker". They weren't Kuro black but then again whites were brighter than the Kuro. Now, I know from reading here that the Panasonics have measured darker black levels than the Samsungs, but why did the Samsung blacks look deeper to me? When the signal faded to black, the Samsung screen looked black, while the Panasonic looked greenish-gray. Same thing with letterbox movies. The bars looked blacker on the Samsung. Are my eyes deceiving me?

That's been my experience. That's why I always say let your eyes decide.
The 650s seem especially good to me, I mentioned in another thread that the whites looked whiter than the LCDs it was next to.
post #5 of 98
1/26/09 at 5:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Unless you've calibrated both, what you see in a store doesn't mean a thing.

The two tvs I saw at Circuit City were calibrated, and they were sectioned off on the side where it was very dark. I had the same opinion on the sets at Best Buy where the light was only slightly brighter. Calibration or no calibration still doesn't explain why the Samsung looked so much blacker in all environments and situations. I mean, it wasn't even close. I went close, I stood way back. I compared a 58a650 with a 58pz800u and again the comparison wasn't close. I still think it has something to do with the screens they use. There's no reason why the Panasonics looked so bad in comparison.Maybe in complete darkness they would look similar but they don't with any light hitting it.
post #6 of 98
1/26/09 at 5:41pm
I have been saying the same thing about Samsung versus Panny plasmas for 2 years. Now if you really want to see black check out the Samsung 950 LCD. The 950 makes the Samsung plasmas look gray. I have seen them side by side and the difference is amazing
post #7 of 98
1/26/09 at 5:42pm
I've seen the same thing at every best buy I went to, even in the magnolia rooms. Even CNET noticed that Samsung is able to retain it's depth of black better than Panasonic, so it must be a screen coating difference.

If the 2009 models are the same (i.e. samsung has higher MLL but still looks blacker than panasonic), then I might go for the sammy instead of the neopdp. At least I'll get perfect colors and clean processing that way. Not to mention a more aesthetically pleasing panel.
post #8 of 98
1/26/09 at 5:45pm
i doubt that CC has a calibrated set. the reason LCD looks better in store is because of torch mode, when calibrated properly that means correct skin tones, at this setting LCD loose lot of black level and black level details, this is where plasma shows its strength, if one measure the the contrast between dark and white screen LCD scores very good because they are much brighter but these numbers means nothing in calibrated setting.

when i was comparing LCD to plasma in store i was confused too. i trusted the recommendation and picked plasma, it looks lot better at home.
post #9 of 98
1/26/09 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolanski View Post

Stin I can't tell you why but that's why I picked a 650 over a 800u.
They weren't calibrated but I did the best I could with adjustments based on settings gleaned from this sight for both.

I was in the same boat. I ended up going with the 650 and couldn't be happer. I really don't know, or care, how much blacker blacks could be. All of the blacks look inky black to the point if they were even darker I think it would feel unnatural to me.

Regardless, the blacks are amazing and I too keep seeing darker blacks in the 650 (which is why I bought it) when comparing it to TVs that were supposed to have deeper blacks.
post #10 of 98
1/26/09 at 6:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iserum View Post

i doubt that CC has a calibrated set. the reason LCD looks better in store is because of torch mode, when calibrated properly that means correct skin tones, at this setting LCD loose lot of black level and black level details, this is where plasma shows its strength, if one measure the the contrast between dark and white screen LCD scores very good because they are much brighter but these numbers means nothing in calibrated setting.

when i was comparing LCD to plasma in store i was confused too. i trusted the recommendation and picked plasma, it looks lot better at home.

I'm not comparing plasma to lcd. I'm comparing a 1080p Panasonic plasma to a 1080p Samsung plasma. The Samsung plasma looked darker to my eyes, even though the test measurements don't back that up. The 2 sets were calibrated at CC, they had a big sign talking about calibration and whatever they where charging. The sets were also dimmer with more accurate colors, and had a test chart/measurements showing post calibration information. The sets at Best Buy were not calibrated, but calibration doesn't change a sets black level. It may change shadow detail and colors, but you can't make a set darker with calibration, if that were the case everyone would have Kuro black levels and Pioneer would be out of business!
post #11 of 98
1/26/09 at 6:40pm
This is where the ultra filter bright feature kicks in and gives the advantage to the Samsung.

While the Panasonics do present a darker black, the Samsung will look more appealing as the color and brightness of the picture is what the human eye picks up on. It's psychological.
post #12 of 98
1/26/09 at 6:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Now, I know from reading here that the Panasonics have measured darker black levels than the Samsungs, but why did the Samsung blacks look deeper to me?

Essentially it's their AR coating.
post #13 of 98
1/26/09 at 6:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants View Post

I have been saying the same thing about Samsung versus Panny plasmas for 2 years. Now if you really want to see black check out the Samsung 950 LCD. The 950 makes the Samsung plasmas look gray. I have seen them side by side and the difference is amazing

I saw that set. They were playing a demo of Hancock on it. Detail was amazing and blacks were out of this world. But, the 46" was 3x the price of the 50" plasma. Simply not worth it to me.
post #14 of 98
1/26/09 at 6:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

I saw that set. They were playing a demo of Hancock on it. Detail was amazing and blacks were out of this world. But, the 46" was 3x the price of the 50" plasma. Simply not worth it to me.

I owned 4 plasmas and the 950 LCD made a believer out of me. Word is that the 950 will be discontinued soon so expect some price drops. I negotiated 24% off of list on my 950 if that helps your thought process. The 750 and 850 are top notch also. The only reason I went to the 950 was for 55"
post #15 of 98
1/26/09 at 6:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Essentially it's their AR coating.

So if the Samsungs look blacker to the human eye with their AR coating, why do people keep going on and on about the lower measured black level of the Panasonics? In almost every thread people recommend Panasonic for deeper blacks, and Samsung for color accuracy. If the truth is that Samsung has darker blacks because of the AR coating they use, then how can the fL value of the Pannys be taken seriously? Or why does it even matter if it has no real world use?
post #16 of 98
1/26/09 at 6:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

So if the Samsungs look blacker to the human eye with their AR coating, why do people keep going on and on about the lower measured black level of the Panasonics? In almost every thread people recommend Panasonic for deeper blacks, and Samsung for color accuracy. If the truth is that Samsung has darker blacks because of the AR coating they use, then how can the fL value of the Pannys be taken seriously? Or why does it even matter if it has no real world use?

The coating doesn't matter unless there's light shining on the screen. If there's no light on the screen the thing could be made of completely untreated glass and it would look fine.

In your house the black level differences will be very noticeable.
post #17 of 98
1/26/09 at 6:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

The coating doesn't matter unless there's light shining on the screen. If there's no light on the screen the thing could be made of completely untreated glass and it would look fine.

In your house the black level differences will be very noticeable.

Noticeable as in the Samsungs will be worse? I find that hard to believe because in an almost lights out scenario the Samsungs still looked blacker?
post #18 of 98
1/26/09 at 7:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RYAXIN View Post

This is where the ultra filter bright feature kicks in and gives the advantage to the Samsung.

While the Panasonics do present a darker black, the Samsung will look more appealing as the color and brightness of the picture is what the human eye picks up on. It's psychological.

The 550 Samsung I was looking at just had regular filter bright and still looked blacker, I then looked at the 650 with ultra FB and I couldn't see much of a difference. Still looked black to me. I guess what I am getting at is I liked the colors, sharpness, and overall clarity of the Samsung better. I guess if the black levels of the Samsung is close if not a little better in low light I will just go ahead and get the 510 that is on sale at Best Buy and be happy.
post #19 of 98
1/26/09 at 7:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

The 550 Samsung I was looking at just had regular filter bright and still looked blacker, I then looked at the 650 with ultra FB and I couldn't see much of a difference. Still looked black to me. I guess what I am getting at is I liked the colors, sharpness, and overall clarity of the Samsung better. I guess if the black levels of the Samsung is close if not a little better in low light I will just go ahead and get the 510 that is on sale at Best Buy and be happy.

The differences between ultra F and Filterbright are so minimal that the benefits are undetected.
post #20 of 98
1/27/09 at 9:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Noticeable as in the Samsungs will be worse? I find that hard to believe because in an almost lights out scenario the Samsungs still looked blacker?

Then the Panasonics were not set up correctly. They have much better black levels than the Samsungs.

Now if you prefer the Samsung then definitely get one. They are good displays and superior to Panasonics in many ways. Black level just isn't one of those areas.
post #21 of 98
1/27/09 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

Then the Panasonics were not set up correctly. They have much better black levels than the Samsungs.

Now if you prefer the Samsung then definitely get one. They are good displays and superior to Panasonics in many ways. Black level just isn't one of those areas.

Completely agree. If you read the shoot out in home theater mag, the Panny's competed with the Kuro, 950 and the XBR8. The 650 can't match the Panny.
post #22 of 98
1/27/09 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by StinDaWg View Post

Noticeable as in the Samsungs will be worse? I find that hard to believe because in an almost lights out scenario the Samsungs still looked blacker?

Since the light will be controlled in your house, the difference in blacks will solely be based on the MLL of the two sets, and we know the panny has the sammy soundly beat in that area. That's why at home a panny should look quite a bit blacker. It's just that the sammy doesn't wash out as easily as the panny, so it usually looks blacker in stores. Even a magnolia room has overhead lights facing the TVs that make the pannys look washed out and gray.
post #23 of 98
1/27/09 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

Then the Panasonics were not set up correctly. They have much better black levels than the Samsungs.

Now if you prefer the Samsung then definitely get one. They are good displays and superior to Panasonics in many ways. Black level just isn't one of those areas.

Do the Panasonic's have better blacks, perhaps BUT not significantly better blacks the difference is subtle at best. IMHO
post #24 of 98
1/27/09 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolanski View Post

Do the Panasonic's have better blacks, perhaps BUT not significantly better blacks the difference is subtle at best. IMHO

Well, "significant" means different things to different people. I think the difference is pretty noticeable.
post #25 of 98
1/27/09 at 10:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolanski View Post

Do the Panasonic's have better blacks, perhaps BUT not significantly better blacks the difference is subtle at best. IMHO

As a matter of science, the measured difference between Panny and Sammy should barely be noticeable if at all because of the way we perceive intensity.

So what are gonna go with, numbers or what your eyes are telling you in the real world?
post #26 of 98
1/27/09 at 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

Well, "significant" means different things to different people. I think the difference is pretty noticeable.

The question should be, do you prefer a deeper black or better color?

I take the better color over a deeper black. I can live with the black that the Samsung outputs but I can't live with color that is a step behind.
post #27 of 98
1/27/09 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

Well, "significant" means different things to different people. I think the difference is pretty noticeable.

In your humble opinion.
post #28 of 98
1/27/09 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

As a matter of science, the measured difference between Panny and Sammy should barely be noticeable if at all because of the way we perceive intensity.

So what are gonna go with, numbers or what your eyes are telling you in the real world?

11G Panny measures around .008 fl and Sammy around .024 fl. That's a big difference and will be easily noticeable...assuming there isn't a high amount of ambient light hitting the Panny screen.

Just for reference, the 8G Kuro is about .004 fl and 9G around .001 fl. If the difference is "barely noticeable" to your eyes between Panny and Sammy, then the Panny and Pio must look identical to you. Yet pretty much everyone can see the difference there.
post #29 of 98
1/27/09 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by discopaul View Post

As a matter of science, the measured difference between Panny and Sammy should barely be noticeable if at all because of the way we perceive intensity.

So what are gonna go with, numbers or what your eyes are telling you in the real world?

As a matter of science? Absolutely not. The difference is obvious. Now you can choose the Samsung because it has much better color, better scaling, more flexible inputs, accepts 1080p over VGA, and so on, but the black level is a lot weaker than the Panasonic to me. And I am not a black level fanatic on a level of many on this board. The blacks on my 8G Pioneer are great to me. I don't feel the need for anything better. People who complain about the blacks on the 9G Pioneers (and there are some who do) seem like lunatics to me but I guess they're just extremely sensitive.
post #30 of 98
1/27/09 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post

As a matter of science? Absolutely not. The difference is obvious. Now you can choose the Samsung because it has much better color, better scaling, more flexible inputs, accepts 1080p over VGA, and so on, but the black level is a lot weaker than the Panasonic to me. And I am not a black level fanatic on a level of many on this board. The blacks on my 8G Pioneer are great to me. I don't feel the need for anything better. People who complain about the blacks on the 9G Pioneers (and there are some who do) seem like lunatics to me but I guess they're just extremely sensitive.

In general, people can live with weaker blacks, poor color is something everyone picks up on and is the number one choice when it comes down to the nitty gritty.
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