Originally Posted by wolfganglui
.....I am a bit curious why you keep bring up certain questions which I thought should be obvious for some one who have tried ABX before.
I have explained the why here and there so it seems to me you believe the test was fine and that it was not flawed, meaning that the dynamics never went over around 70watts (allowing for stability in dynamic terms - if it is obvious I guess though you have read SoundWest and other informative sites/articles).
But as I said there is assumptions on either side because none of this was shown as a consideration in the ABX.
As you say it is rather obvious, but then how would they know they are not hitting 4 or 5watts at average listening levels, how many think to check dBFS of tracks or bother (again no reference to this in their detailed setup).
Usually this would not matter, but then that is what makes this test interesting - the obvious weakness of one amp over another in a medium room.
If you really cannot see what these potential errors are or prefer the assumption not only did they keep the average watts below 4, but let me repeat one of the most entry level Yamaha amps able to control as well as a fully spec amp the 4ohm speaker with phase angle of 30degree (again no mention of this in the test consideration).
Then your views are pretty obvious - all amps sound the same.
This is one ABX test that really cannot be defended.
And I am yet to see anyone else suggesting on these forums that a low entry level AVR model would be a match to even a moderate audio amp in a medium size room on such speakers.
Of course some may have the ears of a mouse and play music at say 1watt I guess, but then they should be showing that a low spec (rail and output stage) supporting 40watts is all you need.
After doing both ABX and preference listening, these days I only have time for long term preference testing as for me this was more consistent, and from my own experience it looked to be actual dynamics that could not be differentiated in an ABX (why I was hoping some others would do similar tests between weak and stronger amps).
Because a few years ago I listened to the mantra all amps are near identical, I ended up wasting a fair bit of money on not entry level AVRs but mid level ones.
In the end I finally found what worked for me but in the process with help from 2 others, we tested at times from these medium AVRs all way to integrated and power amps with 650+watt.
Did I end up using the 650w amp in my reference system, no I went with a different but well built and designed 380w amp as this managed to control the negative characteristics/niggling sound the best that was occuring with my speaker and exacerbated by certain albums and tracks.
Is it possible that the ones who feel amps are sonically pretty much the same also do not notice negative characteristics and niggles others hear in speakers, which is further exacerbated by some albums and tracks?
Wolfgang, regarding my mention of ABX yes quite awhile ago I mentioned that the only chance you may have passing an ABX is knowing the speakers well enough that you can consistently trigger the worst characteristic that the amps would need to deal with and this requires certain music that is probably around 1% of a collection.
So this means you must have plenty of time with the speakers and a serious amount of tracks to be able to select even about 12 tracks from the list to exacerbate the situation enough to possibly pass.
Even then I find your main chance is using a stopwatch and noting what to look for at X seconds.
Without this, or if unlucky that two amps are pretty close in resolving the niggles in same way your going to fail, and you really need 1 amp that actually resolve this because if both do not then passing is near impossible.
When I went through 10 amps, only 2 amps managed to be classified in a way that can resolve my issues with the speaker.
So if ABXing the other 8 against each other, it was a mess, ABX one of those 8 against the Chord Electronics or KW550 then could pass.
However on a preference test the results were more consistent and did not just rely on focusing or engineering a situation around these niggles.
And this is all I am going to say on this subject, because then it is going to turn into a de-rail situation.
Feel free to send me a PM.