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BIC America F12 sub anyone ? - Page 63

post #1861 of 2834
Just want to re-iterate for anybody buying the F12 that it is pretty terrible with music and primarily a movies oriented sub. I've done a lot of listening tests and the bass that hits with music sources sounds bloated, over accentuated and generally sloppy performing.

If I had more time to think about it, I would have considered a more musical sub to balance out my listening needs. When I say terrible with music, I don't mean adequate or okay, I mean just that, terrible sounding to the point where it sounds better to turn the sub off when listening to music.

My mind is made up very clearly that a HSU sub will be next on my horizon. I now firmly believe that a musical sub is worth the extra money and would encourage listeners who want good musical performance out of their sub to hold out for a HSU or SVS musical sub, or something in that class level.

Luckily in my situation, I can relegate my F12 to another room where movies are the listening focus. If its just movies that you need, you should be fine with the F12, but don't expect too much versatility from it when it comes to music.
post #1862 of 2834
Told 'ya!
post #1863 of 2834
I use my f-12 only for HT use. I have an angstrom sub for music, however I don't feel as strongly as you do about the f-12 and it's ability.
post #1864 of 2834
I don't think its a terrible sub, it's just okay, IMHO. I know I'll be taking some heat for saying this in a F12 thread, but I consider myself a very critical listener, picky perhaps. I'm listening for precise timing, accuracy, tightness and extension and while it sounds decent, it's definitely lacking in certain areas. I can agree with Rob's earlier comments about the F12, now that I've been in the listener's chair for a couple of weeks now.

I would call this a very transitional sub, better than most, yet at the middle of the sub road, between mediocity and eventual greatness if you scale up a little more.

If you are happy with the F12, then by all means, ignore these comments. If you feel something is missing, you are not alone.
post #1865 of 2834
While experimenting with the F12 I found it worked best of you lowered the AVR's xover freq to 60Hz, so the mains handle most of the lower notes. The sub is then left with the one octave that it is capable of reproducing.
post #1866 of 2834
Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a try and see what I can eeke out of my f12.
post #1867 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twiztted View Post

Well after lurking this site for a while now, and reading this entire thread, and many other reviews, I pulled the trigger and ordered a F12!

I currently have about a 10+ year old Infinity BU-2 12" Sub that is very muddy and boomy sounding. It basically just rumbles things these days.

After reading everyones reviews I'm very excited to recieve the F12.
I'm hoping that it will add better sound with more punch than the tired Infinity.

I ordered the Sub thru Amazon from Beach Audio. Here's hoping for a speedy delivery

I too came from this sub and would describe it the same way...no punch just rumbles. Maybe to the point that I got use to that type of boomy sound. I orginally had my f12 at a volume knob of 8 but have now dialed it back to almost 6 but any lower and I don't get the sound I'm looking for. Still don't understand how people can keep the knob at 3 and get any type of bass out of it without turning the volume of the AVR through the roof.
post #1868 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by longball07 View Post

I too came from this sub and would describe it the same way...no punch just rumbles. Maybe to the point that I got use to that type of boomy sound. I orginally had my f12 at a volume knob of 8 but have now dialed it back to almost 6 but any lower and I don't get the sound I'm looking for. Still don't understand how people can keep the knob at 3 and get any type of bass out of it without turning the volume of the AVR through the roof.

Subwoofer placement, different subwoofer placement can give you almost double the output at the seating position.

If you are sitting in the middle of the listening room, you are getting the least output from the subwoofer, middle of the room is a null sub frequency location

If I put my sub past 4, I feel the power across the whole room, my coach shakes, keeping mine at 2.5-3 is more than enough with setting on the AVR at 0db

I am almost certain that I can never put my BIC F12 at 6, unless I am in a really huge room.
post #1869 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by longball07 View Post

I too came from this sub and would describe it the same way...no punch just rumbles.

Since you came from the same sub with the same opinion of it how do you like the F12? Does it seem to hit a bit tighter than the BU-2? I realize it is a "Budget" sub but from what I've read it seems like it will perform better, if not a lot better.
post #1870 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by longball07 View Post

I too came from this sub and would describe it the same way...no punch just rumbles. Maybe to the point that I got use to that type of boomy sound. I orginally had my f12 at a volume knob of 8 but have now dialed it back to almost 6 but any lower and I don't get the sound I'm looking for. Still don't understand how people can keep the knob at 3 and get any type of bass out of it without turning the volume of the AVR through the roof.

May I ask which receiver you have in your HT? I have now upgraded my main HT receiver to a Pioneer Elite SC-35 and I have two F12s in this setup and its almost too loud while having them at the #4 position. My latest MCACC calibration also set them at -5dB, but I moved it up to -2dB and have them at the #4 volume position because I like it better like that. Just wondering what receiver you got and also what your calibration if any, did it set your sub at?

I do have to say that having only one F12 before.. I thought my music collection sounded ok and mainly just recommended this sub for HT purposes. But.. now that I got two of them I got to say that my music collection sounds amazing at times, sometimes it still sounds sloppy but not nearly as much and now I really get that punchy bass that was missing a bit when I had one F12.
post #1871 of 2834
I have never heard a tight sub so I am confused about the complaints. A sub is supposed to be boomy and rumble. That's its job. For tightness you should be using some standard woofers to cover the lower frequencies. Not a huge 12" subwoofer.

This is how its always been. Is it different now? Is the subwoofer supposed to do the job of woofers too?
post #1872 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnoyeB View Post

I have never heard a tight sub so I am confused about the complaints. A sub is supposed to be boomy and rumble. That's its job... Is it different now? Is the subwoofer supposed to do the job of woofers too?

You've never heard a good sub so that's why you don't know how it's supposed to sound. It's like someone who always drank instant coffee wondering why anyone would pay several dollars for coffee you need to grind and wait to brew. No, it's really not supposed to be boomy. The subwoofer is supposed to reproduce the lowest notes accurately. With the lowest notes going to the sub, then the main amp and speakers can focus on the rest of the notes. Not sure if that helps, but believe me, there is a difference.
post #1873 of 2834
I have it set at 4 too and it shakes the house from the basement. But for HT use I still believe this is a best buy. Enough from me, back to the the show.
post #1874 of 2834
I see the positive reviews here an on amazon so I'm intrigued .

If I was to buy 2 of these and pair them with Aperion 6t fronts,6c center and 5bp surrounds running from a Onkyo tx-nr3008 AVR would I get good results?

My room is 25x15x8

Just about no music ,just home theater and gaming in this room.

Jeff
post #1875 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

You've never heard a good sub so that's why you don't know how it's supposed to sound. It's like someone who always drank instant coffee wondering why anyone would pay several dollars for coffee you need to grind and wait to brew. No, it's really not supposed to be boomy. The subwoofer is supposed to reproduce the lowest notes accurately. With the lowest notes going to the sub, then the main amp and speakers can focus on the rest of the notes. Not sure if that helps, but believe me, there is a difference.

I have heard good audio. I have never had all my low frequencies from just a sub-woofer. When I first started listening to audio we didn't even use sub-woofers.

I agree its supposed to reproduce the lowest notes accurately. But exactly what instrument is it that gets this deep AND loud? Bass guitar? Not really. Only thing that gets deep and loud are explosions.

This is why I think HT will be moving a sub much more than music will. Music is going to be more demanding on the standard woofers of your mains.

This is what I think. A sub will enhance your low end, but can't do it all on its own. I could be wrong. I am going to purchase a sub by this summer to go with my Monitor 70s. I want to be sure to make the right purchase. I listen to music much more since I got the 70s.

In my basement I have paradigm smalls with a paradigm sub. It sounds good, but I don't think the sub can handle the low end all on its own. Is it supposed to?
post #1876 of 2834
RobLee what avr were you using when you had your F12?
post #1877 of 2834
I just bought 2 of these things, I also have a SVS 20-39 pci running in my theater, let's see how 3 subs work in my setup. First I'm going to run just the BIC subs to see how they implement together in my setup . I'll chime back in with my thoughts on Thursday night after setting them all up and calibrating the sound.
post #1878 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

RobLee what avr were you using when you had your F12?

Denon 790... same AVR I am still using

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnoyeB View Post

I have heard good audio. I have never had all my low frequencies from just a sub-woofer. When I first started listening to audio we didn't even use sub-woofers.

I agree its supposed to reproduce the lowest notes accurately. But exactly what instrument is it that gets this deep AND loud? Bass guitar? Not really. Only thing that gets deep and loud are explosions.

This is why I think HT will be moving a sub much more than music will. Music is going to be more demanding on the standard woofers of your mains. This is what I think. A sub will enhance your low end, but can't do it all on its own. I could be wrong. I am going to purchase a sub by this summer to go with my Monitor 70s. I want to be sure to make the right purchase. I listen to music much more since I got the 70s.

In my basement I have paradigm smalls with a paradigm sub. It sounds good, but I don't think the sub can handle the low end all on its own. Is it supposed to?

Well, things like tympani, bass drum and bass cello or string bass. Plus now with so much synthesized music there are tones with a timbre that cannot be produced naturally.

When you said "I have never heard a tight sub" I thought you meant you had not heard a system with a good sub. I know where you're coming from about audio. We had a Voice of the Theater in our basement when I was a kid. Then for over a quarter century I used and loved full range "Laboratory Standard Transducers" which had nine drivers each and offered flat response from 20-20Khz. They were great for music and had a solid bottom end, but with the advent of DVD they just did not sound right for home theater... even though I had at one time actually used them in a public theater. You really need a sub for movies. The trick is finding one that can do music too.

Sorry, I'd like to say more but have to get going now.
post #1879 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by techhappy View Post

I don't think its a terrible sub, it's just okay, IMHO. I know I'll be taking some heat for saying this in a F12 thread, but I consider myself a very critical listener, picky perhaps. I'm listening for precise timing, accuracy, tightness and extension and while it sounds decent, it's definitely lacking in certain areas. I can agree with Rob's earlier comments about the F12, now that I've been in the listener's chair for a couple of weeks now.

I would call this a very transitional sub, better than most, yet at the middle of the sub road, between mediocity and eventual greatness if you scale up a little more.

If you are happy with the F12, then by all means, ignore these comments. If you feel something is missing, you are not alone.

Ignored!
post #1880 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by sound master bic View Post


ignored!

x2
post #1881 of 2834
Room layout, EQ, seating position, acoustic treatments, flooring, sub placement, crossover, source material, level, etc, etc all affect how the sub will sound.

Writing it off as crap for music is not necessarily true. For YOU in YOUR room it may be crap. Others, including myself, are quite fine with it. I spent a 3 day weekend getting my dual F12's set up and I am very pleased with the outcome for both music and HT.

Mine is crossed over at 60hz with my Jamo floorstanders and audyssey handling the eq. It sounds damn good IMO.

Sometimes I think people post just to fuel arguments.
post #1882 of 2834
Sometimes it actually is the equipment - not the room, not the listener.
I actually spent far more time and effort trying to get the F12 to sound good.
No, we are not simply trying to fuel argument. Have you ever listened
to a sub that was better than the F12? Probably not... that's why you are so
happy with it.
post #1883 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

Sometimes it actually is the equipment - not the room, not the listener.
I actually spent far more time and effort trying to get the F12 to sound good.
No, we are not simply trying to fuel argument. Have you ever listened
to a sub that was better than the F12? Probably not... that's why you are so
happy with it.

Ahhhh.....I see....now I understand. I apparently have no idea what is considered "good" when it comes to sound quality. The 20 years I have spent playing live music gives me no reference point whatsoever. I have no idea what live bass and drums sound like. Or what a les paul through a $4000 Marshall stack rattling the windows when you ride the e sounds like. (Oh, wait, that WAS me). I must be limited to experiencing a lowly $187 sub. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

And for the record, I have listened to many subs over the years. The internet direct companies are hard to audition unless you know someone who has them. I have heard velodyne, def tech, klipsch, energy, jamo, and polk. For the money, I am perfectly happy with 2 F12's since I wouldn't know any better.
post #1884 of 2834
Well, that's not what I said. But it is apparent that we have different tastes in music.
I'd love to hear one of those internet direct subs but afraid of what I might spend.
I wish the F12 had lived up to what I had expected from it, as the price is certainly very affordable.
post #1885 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

Room layout, EQ, seating position, acoustic treatments, flooring, sub placement, crossover, source material, level, etc, etc all affect how the sub will sound.

Writing it off as crap for music is not necessarily true. For YOU in YOUR room it may be crap. Others, including myself, are quite fine with it. I spent a 3 day weekend getting my dual F12's set up and I am very pleased with the outcome for both music and HT.

Mine is crossed over at 60hz with my Jamo floorstanders and audyssey handling the eq. It sounds damn good IMO.

Sometimes I think people post just to fuel arguments.

Pretty much what I've said more than once, there are so many variables!
For someone to say 'it's crap' or 'it's no good for music' is not true, maybe in your particular setup it's no good, others, myself included, are quite happy with the F12. I have a single F12, kicks ass for music and movies.
Someone here has the volume on their F12 set to 6 and gets little bass. Not the F12's fault, setup is off somewhere or he got a defective F12, no other answer.
So please bugger off with your 'no good for music' comments, maybe in your setup but you can't generalize and say it will be the same in every setup!
post #1886 of 2834
You are a reasonable person, and surely you realize that a potential buyer of this unit who comes here seeking an honest evaluation of its performance has the right to know that it is not going to perform as well as some subs that cost only a little more. It's great that many of you are so happy with yours. It is a good, reliable, affordable sub, and I've never said anything different form that. But it is NOT a "great" sub.

You act as though anyone who is dissatisfied with its performance is an amateur and that our sound system "was not setup properly". Believe me, I tried very hard for months to make it reproduce two simple notes in several pieces of music that I listen to frequently. They just were not there, and it was obvious that they were missing. A different sub in the exact same location delivers them solidly.

So I will repeat myself... sometimes it is not the room, and it is not the listener, it is the equipment. I am not the first person to experience displeasure with its performance on music. Some have come back into this forum after discovering this to express their honest opinion and have been chased out by the fanboys. A number of them have never returned, and at some point I will not return. But anyone who is interested in buying this sub and reads the thread from beginning to end will stumble upon mine and a number of other posts expressing some dissatisfaction. Otherwise, all they will read about is how it "shakes the walls" and such. And if that is all you care about, then fine. Frankly I expected more.
post #1887 of 2834
Seriously with the length of Your posts. I know where you coming from. I got chased from pioneer speaker thread cause I though musically they were nice but not so much for ht use. But I was no where near as persistent ad you. Make you point and leave it. And for HT/gaming use I want my "walls to shake".

Last thing, and I said your post was long, I'll buy you f-12 from you.
post #1888 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

You are a reasonable person, and surely you realize that a potential buyer of this unit who comes here seeking an honest evaluation of its performance has the right to know that it is not going to perform as well as some subs that cost only a little more. It's great that many of you are so happy with yours. It is a good, reliable, affordable sub, and I've never said anything different form that. But it is NOT a "great" sub.

You act as though anyone who is dissatisfied with its performance is an amateur and that our sound system "was not setup properly". Believe me, I tried very hard for months to make it reproduce two simple notes in several pieces of music that I listen to frequently. They just were not there, and it was obvious that they were missing. A different sub in the exact same location delivers them solidly.

So I will repeat myself... sometimes it is not the room, and it is not the listener, it is the equipment. I am not the first person to experience displeasure with its performance on music. Some have come back into this forum after discovering this to express their honest opinion and have been chased out by the fanboys. A number of them have never returned, and at some point I will not return. But anyone who is interested in buying this sub and reads the thread from beginning to end will stumble upon mine and a number of other posts expressing some dissatisfaction. Otherwise, all they will read about is how it "shakes the walls" and such. And if that is all you care about, then fine. Frankly I expected more.

I knew a guy years ago who bought a Porsche Turbo Carrera, thing flew, was amazing, chick magnet, gorgeous, everyone turned to see this car. He hated it, traded up to a Ferrari. Guy in the slip next to me had a beautiful 28 foot Rinker Express Cruiser, envy of the marina! "Not big enough and not fast enough." So he traded up to an Italian made 40 foot Atlantis Sport Cruiser, envy of the whole lake!
This sub is not meant to be a great sub, it's less than $200, you want a great sub you will need to spend more $, likely double will get you a sub that is better but there is no guarantee. Might be great for music but suck for HT. I cetainly don't mind others expressing their OPINION but for someone to simply say this sub WILL NOT do music well or IT SUCKS if you want to play music is WRONG. I've heard numerous other subs, both outside and in my own setup and what I could get for 4 times the $ did not sound worth it to my ear. So express YOUR opinion of YOUR setup and let others decide if they want to break the bank on this sub. One could spend months reading and researching, sooner or later they're gonna buy.
post #1889 of 2834
I feel that the Bic F1 is an exceptional subwoofer. I'm still trying to understand how it's not good for music. I've read most of the post on this thread and the owners seem very satisfied with their subs performance with a few exceptions. What I find odd is this music vs movie debate. The F-12 was designed to work in a home theater environment. The bic line is the Formula line which are horn based speakers. These types of speakers are usually associated with HT. The same can be said for the Acoustech line and the PL-200. Again, designed for HT use. Sure they sound fine for music, but that was not the manufacturers intention. The only Bic line with a debatable designed for music is the BIC Venturi line. I call it the forgotten line since many on the board very seldom if ever bring it up in queries. Those speakers are excellent. The owners are very satisfied, some to the point of complacency. If music is a major concern, discounting these speakers was a mistake. The Venturi line has 4 subs. The v1220 subwoofer is the closest equivalent to the F12 in turns of size and power. It has outstanding performance reviews for both music and HT yet it is seldom considered. Again, this is a mistake since the simple truth is down firing subwoofers are considered by the pros more accurate performers. Why, because of the consistent distance the sound will travel from the sub to the floor. Many of the subs recommended better for music are also down firing. Now if we try to be honest, I can quote endless responses that suggested that the appearance had a lot to do with the purchasers decision when pulling the trigger. No one wants an ugly speaker in their setup, but we do hear with our ears not our eyes. All in all the F12 that I auditioned, did sound excellent.
Biggz
post #1890 of 2834
Alright well I have been searching the thread but I can't really find any solid info so I was hoping someone would be able to help me with my new F12. I was just curious like what settings I should have the gain, crossover, etc. set at when I pair this with my new tx-nr708 receiver and run the audysee. I know I am going to do the "crawl" to find a good position for the sub but should I do that before or after Audysee? Any help would be appreciated, thanks!
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