BIC America F12 sub anyone ? - Page 8

Well I guess I've ruined my sub, if it only has 3/8" Xmax then mine must be broke cuz it's moving alot more than that. No where on BIC's site or material did I see any numbers on Xmax, didn't even know it was referred to as Xmax, I read a review on a audiophile site that talked about the drivers movement and they said what I wrote. For a sub that shouldn't be working anymore it sure sounds good and still moving far more than 3/8"!!
Thanks but it didn't seem to take too long, once it was shipped it was only 4 days, 3 days delay re back order.
Is there any way to disallow someone access to a forum here. The guy is just such a friggin downer, never has anything good to say. Unless you buy the same sub he's got he thinks we got ripped off or have bad taste or maybe my ears just don't work as well as his.
I don't think I'll be getting the urge to upgrade, I'll get footitis as we call it in boating first. My 25 footer with 900 horse power seems smaller and slower than it did when I got it, want a bigger one. My 1984 Piper Warrior seems far slower now than it did when I got it, think I'll upgrade to a Cirrus SR22 GTS before I get another sub. It all depends on where you want to spend your money I guess and with the bass I'm getting from this terribly marketed sub from the company that is pulling the wool over our eyes will do me just fine for as long as I can imagine!
Please go somewhere else splice...

Xmax is only one measurement of a sub and doesn't mean anything alone. Don't worry about it, if your sub is giving you the levels you need without signs of compression, distortion or over extending itself, that's all that matter, whether the driver looks like it's physically moving or not.


Get use to it, you'll find that happens a lot around here, if you let it get to you then my advice is leave and never come back, because it will happen again. If you can just learn to shurg people like that off you'll be happy and can take the great amount of information here and learn from it, that counts both here and in all aspects of life.


HAHA, your boat may be the priority now that you have a good sub but stick around here long enough and the same thing that happened with your boat will happen with your sub.


No ones trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes more than anybody else, he's been directed with links and many replies to other quality companies that post specs in the same way, many of these companies charging much much more for their subs. It's more of an industry standard than not. Yet he chooses to ignore those companies and products and concentrate on this one for whatever reasone, we can't help that.

The sub might look like it is moving alot more than 3/8 or 7/16 of an inch but it isn't...I never said the marketing was bad either...Just not whatI consider to be appropriate...And finally...Just put me on ignore...I won't mind...I promise...

someone please teach me how to put someone on ignore, that sounds great.
Never joined a forum before this one, had a computer since Bill Gates did and never felt the need. Googled BIC F12 and this forum showed up, read all great, positive, constructive threads save but one and here I am. Now that I have the sub I want and am happy with it maybe I will go away and never come back, people like that are like putting rocks in your pocket while you're trying to swim.

Some quotes from Splice,

Today "I never said the marketing was bad either...Just not whatI consider to be appropriate"

March 16, "I wouldn't buy one of those subs...Just on the principle that Bic is trying to pull the wool over the consumers eyes by putting in large print the 'peak' power and the RMS power smaller and after that...And at "peak" that power rating will be nothing but distortion..."

March 17, "No matter what you guys say trying to defend them...they list the Peak wattage twice and the actual RMS way down in the list...They are attempting to sell using a BS number...
Also I never said it wasn't a decent sub for the money...For the price I might consider it (but I have heard one and did not like what I heard) but for the blatent BS advertising I wouldn't"

March 30, "I DO fault blatent false advertising or at the very least prominant meaningless advertising to sell their products...When one has to exploit that kind of drival to sell a product...that should send up red flags immediately about what is being marketed and the way that marketing is taking place..."

I could go on copy/pasting your opinions from the past but I won't, these are just from one page of previous threads so it's obvious you DID say their marketing was bad!

[quote=Jakeman02;16248158]Xmax is only one measurement of a sub and doesn't mean anything alone. Don't worry about it, if your sub is giving you the levels you need without signs of compression, distortion or over extending itself, that's all that matter, whether the driver looks like it's physically moving or not.

Thanks Jake, my only concern is sometimes it just seems like SO much bass during a crash scene or bassy part of music, I go to look at the driver and it's moving quite a bit but no where near as much as I've seen others. Don't want to push it but can't imagine I am given the settings I've got it set at. Trashed my share of speakers many years ago but things have changed so much...

That is a sure sign of being BOOMY...
Try CALIBRATING it and see how much better it sounds...
Speakers are still speakers...Still easily trashed today as they were yesterday...
And you point being??? So far all you quoted was exactly what I see BIC has done and MY reasons not to purchase one...Where did I say you MUST own the SAME sub as I have??? Fact is I didn't and you can't as mine is a DIY that would be extremely difficult for you to reproduce...

[quote=Sound Master BIC;16248419]
My advice is stop looking at the driver, you'll hear it if it's being over driven and that's unlikely unless your running it to hot (at a higher calibrated spl level than your other speakers). Bottom line, if it sounds like it's being overdriven then back the volume down or turn the independent sub level down, it's probably being run to high, other than that quit worrying about how much the driver is moving.

This goes for any sub.

[quote=Jakeman02;16248520]
Agreed...

finally figured out how to put someone on ignore, his posts no longer show up!

I think I'll have my buddy from Audio One come over and 'calibrate' things. He'll be pissed that I didn't buy his sub but he'll understand.

Took you long enough...

I tell ya guys, nothin to do with the the F12 but it's so good not to have to see slices stupid comments anymore, feel reborn! Now I can read on without gettin pissed-off.
Some of your comments are very useful and I've learned from them. A couple of other forums here have also instructed me well, AVR's for one. Thats the next step, an AVR with 3 or 4 HDMI in and a must is LFE or sub-out, makes connection a breeze.
Someone said earlier 'plug-and-play' doesn't work with a sub. I didn't mean it was that simple, of course messing with all the settings and placement is key but to have the sub gain turned to 10 and not be getting enough bass sounds like there's a fundamental problem with the connections you've made. 2 minutes out of the box mine was connected and producing bass in the middle of the room, from there it was placement and tinckering with settings.
All's good though, thanks for your help and comments.

You're welcome...

was reading a bit on 'xmax,' its the distance a driver travels in one direction before 'bottoming' or reaching it's peak travel, drivers obviously have 2 directions therefor an xmax of 3/8" would translate roughly into 3/4" total movement. Most have a higher xmax on the way out as they do back in. Some, not top of the line, have an xmax of an inch! Also that xmax was not any way to judge a speakers potential quality in and of itself. Some have huge xmax factors and 'suck' others have very little movement and are top of the line.
speakers haven't changed? right. voice coil material, basket material and construction, cooling... they have changed alot!

I'm glad, but I do wonder why you feel the need to keep commenting about him, if he gets under your skin that much and you've mastered the ignore feature, why even bring his name up, he's gone to you.


Basically every AVR has a sub LFE pre-out, that's the norm and most now have 3 or more HDMI inputs. Even some budget AVRs coming out will have 5 HDMI inputs and 2 LFE Pre-Outs, like the Onkyo 607. Check the receiver forum for more info.


I made the comment but you mis-quoted me. I never said it doesn't work. Of course it works. I said it doesn't achieve optimal results. With my first sub I hooked it up adjusted the gain and avr sub level by ear and was perfectly happy with the resuts, so of course it worked. In hindsight and knowing what I know now was I getting the best the sub had to offer, NO!!!!, but still I was perfectly happy at that point and time. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Well he must be as happy as a pig in a stye then...

Jake, didn't mean to mis-quote you, seemed like whomever was having the problem couldn't get any or enough bass set at gain of 10 and that I think would blow the speaker...
I've only mentioned the name in one post after finding the kill/ignore switch, like I said, never been on a forum before and didn't even know you could do that. Promise, no mention again.
I've browsed on line a bit for an AVR and it seems that some I have looked at didn't have HDMI's, maybe they were older models and I could have sworn I saw some that had no LFE/sub-out, I thought that's why sub makers had the optional hook up's for line in from AVR & line out to front speakers like my F12 does. I've heard Onkyo mentioned alot, I'll have to re-visit the AVR forums to check them out further.

Definitely older models won't have HDMI, but such models are getting harder and harder to find. The Onkyo 605 made a big splash a few years ago and the 606 has been very popular in the entry level 7.1 AVR market, though there really isn't anything special about it. The 607 will likely continue with success, but it doesn't add much to the 606's feature list other than a 2nd LFE out and the ridiculous Dolby PLz additional front channels (matrixed, not discreet).

I've researched A LOT on AVR's and I just pulled the trigger on a Harman Kardon AVR 254 from their ebay store for $315 shipped. The H/K's have a few little quirks, but the sound quality and feature set blows the Onkyos (and most of the rest of the competition) out of the water. Plus it looks much better than the Onkyo I also went with the H/K due to the price and the fact that their GUI is heads and shoulders above anyone else in the industry.

Other notable AVR's which all have their caveats are the Yamaha 663, Denon 1909 and Pioneer 1018. Sound quality wise, it would probably go H/K=Denon>Yamaha>Pioneer=Onkyo. Don't get a Sony as their entry level AVR's are known to sound like poop. Also, I list the Yammy 663 and not their newer model as there has been an uproar that the 665 is nearly 8lbs lighter than the older 663- meaning Yamaha stripped a lot from the power supply/amplifier of the AVR.

Hope that helps...

now thats helpful and it's not even the right forum!
Is 50 watts x 6 enough? Seems like my old 5.1 with 100 or 110 wrms is just enough. Even their 354 only has 75w x 6... Great price though, congrats!
I know all, go to another forum...!

Yeah, sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. Feel free to PM me if you have questions though.

As for the question of power, H/K rates their receivers by a different method than most other companies. It's almost like Splicer's RMS vs Peak argument- most AVR manufacturers rate their output by measuring the max wattage the receiver puts out IN A SINGLE CHANNEL. However, with a 7.1 channel system, the AVR could be driving 3, 5, or even 7 channels AT THE SAME TIME. H/K rates their receivers by measuring the average output over ALL channels, therefore giving a much more accurate real world performance estimate. So in reality, H/K AVR's produce as much or even more power per channel rated at 50w than an Onkyo, Denon or Yamaha rated at 100w. Splicer would say all the other manufacturers are trying to pull the wool over your eyes Why is it that H/K doesn't inflate their numbers like everyone else? I don't know, but I hope their honesty doesn't hurt their sales performance.

Denon & Onkyo DO NOT inflate their numbers...Yamaha or Pioneer either...And while you are correct that a few brands DO rate other than real world averages...the fact remains that the numbers they publish...AT THE SPECIFIED FREQUENCY...are correct FOR THAT FREQUENCY...Denon & Onkyo & yes even HK publish numbers avaerage thruout the entire frequency range...THAT is where te difference lies...

And unfortunately for you...or fortunately depending how you look at it...HK has a habit of posting the actual max wattage while brands such as Denon & Onkyo tend to be on the conservative side...

As for Mr. Ignore and still can't stop talking about me goes...His 100 watts per channel...if indeed it is a true 100 watts per channel...has NOTHING to do with the powered sub output level...Since he has me on ignore it would be a nice gesture for someone to point this small little fact out to him...

I just recieved a F12(also got the FH6(?-i think - i'm not at home now)center channel speaker(they match) - love it - my first sub - hooked it up with, dare I say it, a fairly old sony stereo receiver I was given I now need a surround receiver (like BIC above) waiting for the pioneer 919 (supposidly this month)receiver - any advice on this...how well this would drive this sub(!)

I love the look of the HK but first review on amazon scares me - this whole home theater is being built around my PS3 - sub and all.

Any advice...?

I would take those review with a grain of salt. There are far more angry people who like to write reviews than satisfied people, and that often skews review pages. I would check out AVS and look for reviews [IMG]http://www.entertainment-place.info/smile/img/2464/*************************[/IMG]

thanks! - I'll keep researching - and this is the best place I've found for that...

How does the F12 perform for you so far?

Splice, take a look at the H/K forums and do some research. It's pretty common knowledge that H/K's rate their AVR's differently (more conservatively) than their competitors. Everyone who knows anything about the H/K's would say their "50w" rating is pretty equal to even a Denon or Onkyo "100w" rating and how Yamaha and Pioneer in particular tend to have inflated numbers. Like I said, the new Yammy 665 is advertised as having the same power as the older 663- however it's 8lbs lighter. There is no way you can drop that much weight from the PSU and amps without losing power output unless you're switching from analog to digital amps (which they didn't).

I don't think "Mr Ignore" was implying the channel ratings had anything to do with his sub performance, he was just worried that the H/K wouldn't deliver as much power as he was used to.

Keep in mind most, if not all, of those amazon reviews were written before the firmware updates, circa FW v49. FW v93 fixed most of the problems while v95 is the current with v96 just released overseas and will soon be released here in the States. Search "harman kardon problem thread" here and you'll get an idea of what the firmware updates have fixed.

Don't take it personally man...HK is a damn nice receiver...But there is no way...Let me rephrase that...no way in HELL that a HK 50 watt could possibly equal a 100 watt Onkyo or Denon... Quite impossible...

The only reason HK is considered conservative is when looking at the 2 CHANNEL OUTPUT ONLY...But to be fair...Onkyo is considered conservative FOR THE SAME REASON...When your 2 channel HK can output 65 watts/ch...The 100watt Onkyo @ 2 channels puts out DOUBLE the HK output...

You my young friend...is the one that needs to do some research...Expand your horizons...There is ALOT of valuable information on this site...

PS...The HK may have corrected all its 'bugs' with a FW update but I haven't read confirmed proof that they have...If I am not mistaken HK is still plauged with HDMI issues...Not saying they are but Denon is one of the only 'bug free' units available...

Finally...The Yamaha...even being 8lbs lighter...can most certainly have the same power output as its predecessor...It is called being more efficient...A 300hp engine weighed 500lbs 20 years ago...A 300hp engine today weighs 250lbs...Same torque...Less emissions...and so on...20 years ago weight of an amplifier meant abit more than today...A computer weighed a ton and took up a small bedroom in space and was no more powerful than a handheld calculator...Today a computer can sit on your desktop and run more programs than one can imagine...So your logic just isn't...very logical...

As for Mr. Ignore...You should tell him that no the 50 watt HK WILL NOT deliver as much power as he is used to...But it will deliver a cleaner sound than he is used to which will be perceived as higher power...

You're right Splice, the whole last month of research I've done on the H/K's (on this site and others) probably doesn't compare to the vast amount of knowledge you hold in your back pocket...

From H/K's website: "A Harman Kardon 50-watt amplifier will sound better, louder and cleaner than most 100-watt amplifiers from other companies. The reason is very simple. We give "true" wattage ratings, and our amplifiers utilize something called High-Current Capability (HCC). Please see the comparison below for further explanation vs other companies (100 watts)."

Independent test chart of AVR's:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Holl...1/ratevsac.htm

You will notice from that chart that though Onkyo rated their AVR at 100w, it maxed out at 50w before clipping occurred. While the Denon's fared better, they too didn't live up to their wattage claims. In fact, out of ALL brands tested, ONLY the H/K's met and even exceeded their power ratings. So your very persuasive "no way in hell" argument unfortunately doesn't hold up to you know, actual tested numbers.

As for the firmware updates, check here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1053202

You'll see on the front page a list of all reported problems and notice that 99% of them have been fixed. I do agree with you on the Denon's though, they are a solid product. The only gripes I've heard about Denon AVR's is how much more complicated/unintuitive they are to set up and adjust than other brands. CNET in particular lamented on and on about how difficult the 1909 was to set up and navigate compared to even the very bare bones Onkyo 606.

You want to talk illogical? You're using an analogy of how technology has progressed over the the last 20 years while I'm talking about last year's model compared to this year's. If the Yamaha 663 was made in 1988, then MAYBE you're argument would stand, however the 663 was manufactured last year and there have not been drastic improvements in PSU and amp designs within the last 12 months for a receiver to be able drop nearly 35% of its weight and remain as powerful unless, as I stated earlier, they went with a digital class amp which IS lighter, newer, more efficient technology than analogs- but they didn't.


NOTE: My apologies everyone for the wild tangent here, it was not my intent. I will refrain from posting about AVR's in this thread again.

I'm enjoying these tangents! - learning a lot and it's a real possibility I'll get the HK to drive my sub now...

In answer to your question Sound Master BIC - I've been enjoying my sub - but mainly looking at it(!) - I did hook it up through speaker wire and it sounded...deep and I did see some xmas (as I did on my FH6 centre) - but then I leant it to my friend to use with his Denon - and after a few days he hasn't set it up - he's waiting for a blue ray as he says none of his music is made for it?! - I just want to hear it with a HT amp(he doesn't have a sub yet and may not - we're both got on the HT buzz around the same time - he's generally gone the more expensive route - It'll be interesting to compare when they're both complete(or complete for now...!)) - oh well, I'll pick it up today(the thing is HUGE) and stare at it some more until I pull the trigger on the HK 254 or still a vauge possibility now (depending on reviews) the pioneer 919(forthcoming).

Thankyou to all for your shared knowledge...

I own an HK-254 rated at 50wpc and I also own a Denon AVR-1909. I can tell you from experience that the HK-254 sounds better and puts out just as much power (for all practical purposes) as the Denon. That is, you can drive the same 5 speakers to very loud levels with either...any extra power is irrelevant for most efficient speakers.

I can also tell you this. The HK-254 has the best GUI I've ever seen. It's easy to set up, looks sexier than any receiver made today IMO and performs great. The Denon also performs well although it's remote is worse, manual sucks big time and it looks like a big black chuck of metal in my rack. It's more difficult to set up but if you can get through that, live with the remote...it is a great performer also...and probably less prone to issues than the HK.

Anyway, I think I'll be ordering an F12 and/or an H100 to see how they perform. They make great entry level subs for the 'average' home theater owner. I've built alot of computer systems for people and they too have these great 'sweet spot' components like the F12. A great blend of performance and value. For most people that means so much more than having alittle extra extension or output power, infact alot of people wouldn't even notice the difference. I'll let ya know what I think of the F12 when I get one too

eyerob, the HK-254 or any receiver will never 'drive' your sub, your sub drives itself....it's not passive.