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BIC America F12 sub anyone ? - Page 73

post #2161 of 2724
Bic 12 vs bic 1220

What is the difference between these two subs?

If I am placing this behind a rear projection tv is one more recommended than the other
Edit sorry for the duplicate post
post #2162 of 2724
Personally I prefer down firing subs. Currently I own three of various brands in different rooms in the house. Previously I had owned three front firing subs which I no longer use, including the F12. I had considered the 1220 but bought the F12 instead... who knows what my opinion would have been had I gone that route instead. Anyway, just my two cents. Many/most folk seem to like the front firing better, but my recommendation would be the 1220 (if the price is comparable) especially since it will be positioned behind furniture.
post #2163 of 2724
Don't think there are many who have owned both. I own a 1220 and going by specs alone it is supposed to go a little lower and is a downfiring sub.
Subs should usually be taking care of 80 Hz signals and lower which I afaik are non-directional frequencies and shouldn't make much difference where the drivers are facing. I did like the fact that the driver was practically hidden and that's good if you've got kids or cats although the port is still exposed.
post #2164 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugenester View Post

So there is bracing. What I plan to do is buy a stock 12" then further along the line save up for a better driver to replace the stock one, like a Dayton Reference or TC Sounds LMS.

I like the F12, but I plan to do the same thing. From what I have been told by others, replacing the driver with THIS driver, would make it sound much better than the subs you could buy for $350+. So, it seems like a smart plan to me.
post #2165 of 2724
Quick question: I know the specs of my F12 say that it goes down to 25hz. Does anyone know if that is actually true? A friend of mine told me that companies aren't exactly honest with those numbers. And, that while it may be possible, it more than likely only goes down to 28-30hz. Not sure I believe him. Anyone know?

AND, is there anything that I could do to the box to make it go down lower than 25hz?
post #2166 of 2724
Just received my f12 I recently purchased. This thing is huge! well... compared to my 8" yamaha HTIB sub.

The receiver I am using is a onkyo RC180. http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-HT-RC180.../dp/B002L6GEKG

Out of all the settings on this sub which should they be set to?
How loud should I have the sub before running auddysey? My room is about 12x15. Will be used for music as well as video games/movies.
post #2167 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by chukronos View Post

Quick question: I know the specs of my F12 say that it goes down to 25hz. Does anyone know if that is actually true? A friend of mine told me that companies aren't exactly honest with those numbers. And, that while it may be possible, it more than likely only goes down to 28-30hz. Not sure I believe him. Anyone know?

AND, is there anything that I could do to the box to make it go down lower than 25hz?

Apparently not a quick answer, lol. I have not seen the answer to your question, perhaps because those with measuring equipment are focused on high end subs. And there really isn't one answer, since room characteristics, sub placement, adjustments/smoothing, and volume all affect what you hear/feel. But if you find data on how low it goes, please come back and post it!

Many people have commented that the F12 goes deeper after it's been played 50-100 hours. That's a topic of controversy, but in three weeks, I have noticed a difference in resonance, dynamics, as well as sensations of pressure, and the number of objects rattling in the adjacent room went from zero to dozens.

When I did my sub crawl, the volume seemed low, and mostly dull thuds, nothing delicate about delivery. But after I set up Audyssey (MultEQ XT), within an hour, it started showing personality, resonance, dynamics. While people argue the break-in is your brain adjusting, the difference I notice is more what I feel, not what I hear. Brain tricks don't cause deep chest vibrations/pressure sensations, changes in harmonics, or in what rattles and for how long. The F12 still sounds dull with MP3 level audio and TV popups. But if it lacked musicality, movie scores wouldn't sound as great as they do. I attribute dullness to the source.

Three weeks ago, Star Wars-Clones shook us, the chair, the floor. We felt the pressure in the chest feeling others talk about when they describe frequencies below hearing. Now, there's a great deal more of that. I take that to mean it's going deeper now. I don't know how deep, but it doesn't matter to me, as long as it does what it does well, and improves the listening experience.
post #2168 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by chukronos View Post

Quick question: I know the specs of my F12 say that it goes down to 25hz. Does anyone know if that is actually true? A friend of mine told me that companies aren't exactly honest with those numbers. And, that while it may be possible, it more than likely only goes down to 28-30hz. Not sure I believe him. Anyone know?

AND, is there anything that I could do to the box to make it go down lower than 25hz?

If you care to go back and read, pg 56 has some info about test tones I ran on my system to see what the F12 could get down to.
post #2169 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

If you care to go back and read, pg 56 has some info about test tones I ran on my system to see what the F12 could get down to.

Not everybody has page lengths set the same. Can you please add the post #?

ETA: I found Bink audio tones (free) online and tried them out. But I forgot to shut Audyssey off, so I'll probably try again next week, when the home projects I'm avoiding are done, and after the dog recovers. Next time, I'll put her outside. The CD has 16 Hz, 20, 25, 31.5 tones for the low end. At 16 Hz, the F12 moved, but not very enthusiastically. Things next to it vibrated, but no sense of force, even at reference. At 20 Hz, I noticed the F12 from my listening position 10' away, and with a hand on top, felt strong vibrations. At 25Hz, my hearing kicked in, so naturally it sounded more full, and was plenty strong at -5 to -10 dB. This is also where my Heresy center joined in. Apparently a bit of content goes that low with crossover set at 80 Hz. At 31.5 Hz, it was forceful and contributing fully at my normal listening level, -10 to -20 dB. My kitchen rattle (TV room open to kitchen) showed up at 50 dB, so I was able to figure out how to silence it during movies.

So, the F12 made a difference at 20 Hz, but it was a bit weak and needed more volume. The 25 Hz rating, though, seems reasonable at -10 to -20 dB listening levels. Next week I'll try the #1 location found in the sub crawl, to see if it's also stronger at the low levels.
post #2170 of 2724
I'm gonna be buying a Bic Sub for sure, and I was wondering if the F12 could be placed behind an entertainment center that is placed caddy cornered in a room? Would this cause any issues? Would a down firing sub like the v1220 be better? I really have my heart set on the F12, but the wife doesn't want a giant sub just sitting out. If it helps, this will be set up with a Denon 591, with Polk RT400, Polk CS1, and Sony Sat's.
post #2171 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjtiger View Post
I'm gonna be buying a Bic Sub for sure, and I was wondering if the F12 could be placed behind an entertainment center that is placed caddy cornered in a room? Would this cause any issues? Would a down firing sub like the v1220 be better? I really have my heart set on the F12, but the wife doesn't want a giant sub just sitting out. If it helps, this will be set up with a Denon 591, with Polk RT400, Polk CS1, and Sony Sat's.
anyone?

Edit: I went ahead and ordered the F12 and with Super Saver Shipping it should be here August 9th or so!!!!!
post #2172 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkingRat View Post

Not everybody has page lengths set the same. Can you please add the post #?

ETA: I found Bink audio tones (free) online and tried them out. But I forgot to shut Audyssey off, so I'll probably try again next week, when the home projects I'm avoiding are done, and after the dog recovers. Next time, I'll put her outside. The CD has 16 Hz, 20, 25, 31.5 tones for the low end. At 16 Hz, the F12 moved, but not very enthusiastically. Things next to it vibrated, but no sense of force, even at reference. At 20 Hz, I noticed the F12 from my listening position 10' away, and with a hand on top, felt strong vibrations. At 25Hz, my hearing kicked in, so naturally it sounded more full, and was plenty strong at -5 to -10 dB. This is also where my Heresy center joined in. Apparently a bit of content goes that low with crossover set at 80 Hz. At 31.5 Hz, it was forceful and contributing fully at my normal listening level, -10 to -20 dB. My kitchen rattle (TV room open to kitchen) showed up at 50 dB, so I was able to figure out how to silence it during movies.

So, the F12 made a difference at 20 Hz, but it was a bit weak and needed more volume. The 25 Hz rating, though, seems reasonable at -10 to -20 dB listening levels. Next week I'll try the #1 location found in the sub crawl, to see if it's also stronger at the low levels.

post #1664
post #2173 of 2724
Thanks.
post #2174 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjtiger View Post

anyone?

Edit: I went ahead and ordered the F12 and with Super Saver Shipping it should be here August 9th or so!!!!!

It can be placed wherever you decide to put it. That may not be the ideal place for it but you'll figure it out. It isn't small but I've seen much bigger subs. Placement is key as you have read in this and any other sub thread but some of us are limited in the positions we can put it. I'm putting together a system for a friend of mine and her TV room is small and I have no idea where I'll be able to put the sub but we'll get-er-done.
post #2175 of 2724
I appreciate it. I think either way it will make my system sound better!!!! One more question, does the sub cable matter?
post #2176 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjtiger View Post

I'm gonna be buying a Bic Sub for sure, and I was wondering if the F12 could be placed behind an entertainment center that is placed caddy cornered in a room? Would this cause any issues? Would a down firing sub like the v1220 be better? I really have my heart set on the F12, but the wife doesn't want a giant sub just sitting out. If it helps, this will be set up with a Denon 591, with Polk RT400, Polk CS1, and Sony Sat's.


Hey, just noticed your post. This is exactly the way I have had my F12 for over a year now and it sounds great.
post #2177 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by oedius View Post

Hey, just noticed your post. This is exactly the way I have had my F12 for over a year now and it sounds great.


Just out of curiosity, which way do you have it firing?
post #2178 of 2724
Not sure if this is widely known here or not -- a search for parts express in this thread didn't turn up much -- but they have the F-12 on "special".
post #2179 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Not sure if this is widely known here or not -- a search for parts express in this thread didn't turn up much -- but they have the F-12 on "special".

Probably is but there are 2 places that it is.cheaper right now (Amazon and shopblt (I think that's right) ) good.price though and its always good to see what other vendors are selling it for.
post #2180 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Probably is but there are 2 places that it is.cheaper right now (Amazon and shopblt (I think that's right) ) good.price though and its always good to see what other vendors are selling it for.

Looks like you're right; a quick search turned up several places selling them for about that same price, so maybe it's not the bargain I originally thought it was. I guess it's safe to say you can disregard my post...
post #2181 of 2724
Just want to say that I have had my F12 for about a year. I got it 15% less than amazon has it for now, and must say that it has been worth every penny- at least I think so. I'll be honest I'm still new to this Audio/Video interest, but so far I am really enjoying it.

One questions I do have is should i be putting foam or something inside this sub to cut down on boomy sounds? I have read about that, but wasn't sure if it was a goof idea with this sub.

Also as for the sub crawl, I never did this step but am interested in doing it now. Since I already set up audyssey, how do I go about this. Do I just keep the current settings and then put the sub on my chair and do the crawl to find the optimal spot-and then rerun audyssey?

Thanks
post #2182 of 2724
One questions I do have is should i be putting foam or something inside this sub to cut down on boomy sounds? I have read about that, but wasn't sure if it was a goof idea with this sub.

Do you mean foam to block the port or additional damping inside the cabinet? Not sure what you would/wouldn't gain by the latter, but I would advise against the former. Ported subs are designed specifically to work with that air "relief" open. If you close the port it will more then likely upset it's balance. It's essentially neutering the output.

FWIW... boomy is often a word used to describe ported subs. That's somewhat of a generalization, but it's predominately accurate. Now, that doesn't mean it's the reason for your sound issues, but it might be just how that subwoofer sounds.


Also as for the sub crawl, I never did this step but am interested in doing it now.

Placement could be the reason for the boom as well.

To accomplish the "sub crawl" you move the subwoofer to the spot you're most likely to sit in, and then crawl around on the floor in the spots where you could potentially put the sub. The concept is the spot that sounds the best will be where you should place the subwoofer.

That's only a portion of the configuration though. Setting the sub's gain, phase and crossover (which is usually done in your AVR instead of on the subwoofer itself) are also a part of the equation. So is setting the channel level and distance which, like the crossover, are functions of your AVR. Then there's the firing direction -- pointed at you, to the side, towards the wall -- any of which could provide more benefit then the other.

Sound daunting? To an extent it can be, but if you go about it in a logical and organized manner -- noting your impressions at each step -- it isn't as intimidating as it may sound. Allow yourself sufficient time, and use the exact same source material to test every scenario, and you'll more then likely find the "sweet spot".
post #2183 of 2724
I am looking to buy either the V1220 or the F12. My budget permits either. It will be in use in a bedroom 10x11. I know its small for a 12" sub, but I love bass. (<3 Dubstep) Some movies will be watched occasionally. Really my only question is, which sub is better suited for my size of room? I have read that the downward firing is a space saver. Soon, the sub will be moved into a bit of a larger room (2 person dorm room) I have had my mind set on the F12 for a while, and understand all the pros and cons... But recently started reading up on the v1220. So any opinions?
post #2184 of 2724
Personally I prefer downfiring subs. I've owned six subs of various brands and the ones I'm still using are all downfiring. Other folks will say it doesn't make any difference, but to me I think they sound better. But there are other advantages such as being a bit less susceptible to physical damage (foot thru cone etc).
post #2185 of 2724
Just picked up a BIC F12, and I'm having some problems I was hoping I could get some help with. The output from the sub is EXTREMELY low. Here's a rundown of my setup and what I've tried so far:

-Receiver - Pioneer VSX-1021
-All speakers set to Small in the receiver.
-S/W is set to Yes. (I've tried S/W Plus with speakers set to Large as well, no real difference).
-X-Over on receiver is set to 80hz
-The speaker level for the sub in the receiver was default at 0. Going all the way up to +12 helps, but not a whole lot.
-Even with the receiver at +12, there is basically no output if the gain on the sub is less than 11 o'clock.
-Maxing the gain on the sub (with receiver at +12) gives OK bass, but it's dull and muddy. All rumble, and not even that loud. It's definitely not shaking the walls of my small/medium sized room.
-Sub is connected to the single RCA subwoofer out on the receiver.
-Power on the sub works fine on Auto, but I have it set to On for testing.
-X-Over on sub is set to max (no difference at any point along the dial though)
-The receiver type on the sub is set to 5.1/6.1/7.1
-Phase on the sub is at 0, no difference when I toggle it though.

I've also tried hooking up the sub to my cell phone and playing some music (mini-jack to rca cable, although I only had one of the RCA's hooked up to the RCA input on the sub). The results are the same as connected to the receiver. Relatively low, crappy output. Certainly not what I would expect from a 12" sub with a 475 watt amp. I've never had a sub in my home stereo, but I have had them in my car. Granted the car is a much, much smaller space, but my car components are not as powerful either. After hearing all of the reviews talking about keeping the gain on the sub at 9 or 10 o'clock or the whole house shakes, I'm thinking something is wrong.

Any other ideas on what I can try? Bad unit perhaps? I wish I had access to another sub to test with the receiver (or another receiver to test with the sub), but I'm also in the middle of moving to a new house. Just wanted to unpack the F12 and make sure everything works before my return window closes.

Thanks!
Brian
post #2186 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by bedoig View Post

Just picked up a BIC F12, and I'm having some problems I was hoping I could get some help with. The output from the sub is EXTREMELY low. Here's a rundown of my setup and what I've tried so far:

-Receiver - Pioneer VSX-1021
-All speakers set to Small in the receiver.
-S/W is set to Yes. (I've tried S/W Plus with speakers set to Large as well, no real difference).
-X-Over on receiver is set to 80hz
-The speaker level for the sub in the receiver was default at 0. Going all the way up to +12 helps, but not a whole lot.
-Even with the receiver at +12, there is basically no output if the gain on the sub is less than 11 o'clock.
-Maxing the gain on the sub (with receiver at +12) gives OK bass, but it's dull and muddy. All rumble, and not even that loud. It's definitely not shaking the walls of my small/medium sized room.
-Sub is connected to the single RCA subwoofer out on the receiver.
-Power on the sub works fine on Auto, but I have it set to On for testing.
-X-Over on sub is set to max (no difference at any point along the dial though)
-The receiver type on the sub is set to 5.1/6.1/7.1
-Phase on the sub is at 0, no difference when I toggle it though.

I've also tried hooking up the sub to my cell phone and playing some music (mini-jack to rca cable, although I only had one of the RCA's hooked up to the RCA input on the sub). The results are the same as connected to the receiver. Relatively low, crappy output. Certainly not what I would expect from a 12" sub with a 475 watt amp. I've never had a sub in my home stereo, but I have had them in my car. Granted the car is a much, much smaller space, but my car components are not as powerful either. After hearing all of the reviews talking about keeping the gain on the sub at 9 or 10 o'clock or the whole house shakes, I'm thinking something is wrong.

Any other ideas on what I can try? Bad unit perhaps? I wish I had access to another sub to test with the receiver (or another receiver to test with the sub), but I'm also in the middle of moving to a new house. Just wanted to unpack the F12 and make sure everything works before my return window closes.

Thanks!
Brian

Looks like you have everything dead on. Could try hooking the sub up to the audio terminals to see if it's the sub or the receiver causing the problems. Man hate to be in your shoes with moving and all . Good Luck.
post #2187 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippo775 View Post

Looks like you have everything dead on. Could try hooking the sub up to the audio terminals to see if it's the sub or the receiver causing the problems. Man hate to be in your shoes with moving and all . Good Luck.

Well, it randomly started working. Not sure if there's a loose internal connection, failing electronics, or what. I'm just going to return it since I don't want to mess with it right now. Thanks!
post #2188 of 2724
How would you compare the BIC F-12 to the HSU STF-2? My budget is $400 and the sub will be going into 16x14 basement HT room. I live in townhouse so I probably won't be able to push the sub too far, so I'm not sure the HSU is worth the added expense. My listening is primarily blu-ray movies with some gaming.
post #2189 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by vpn75 View Post

How would you compare the BIC F-12 to the HSU STF-2? My budget is $400 and the sub will be going into 16x14 basement HT room. I live in townhouse so I probably won't be able to push the sub too far, so I'm not sure the HSU is worth the added expense. My listening is primarily blu-ray movies with some gaming.

Most would probably pick the HSU. Many if not most people choose the F12 because of what their budget will allow.
post #2190 of 2724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post

Most would probably pick the HSU. Many if not most people choose the F12 because of what their budget will allow.

Thanks! I realize the HSU is widely considered to be the superior sub. I'm just wondering if I'll be able to appreciate the difference given my room dimensions and the need to keep sub output at moderate levels.
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