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BIC America F12 sub anyone ? - Page 92

post #2731 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrari fan View Post

In my home theater I have the SVS PB12 Plus.

Your doing it wrong, if your relying on a single subwoofer.
You need to add another PB12 Plus to your setup.

Contrary to what you might think, it’s not about getting louder bass.
Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating area.
A secondary effect is to help reduce the excessively long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies.
post #2732 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Your doing it wrong, if your relying on a single subwoofer.
You need to add another PB12 Plus to your setup.

Contrary to what you might think, it’s not about getting louder bass.
Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating area.
A secondary effect is to help reduce the excessively long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies.

WHAT? Just what is he "doing wrong?" He's got a great sub, 800 watts, 2300 watts peak, gets down to 20hz, I'm sure it fills his room better than most home theaters and you say he's doing it wrong... I don't see anywhere in his post asking for your advise, he simply posted his take on the F12's ability to serve his need for TV watching. Just because you have the means to blow $2500 on 2 subs doesn't mean someone else is wrong! Seems you do everything in two's, you even posted your comments twice, what's with that? It was bad enough reading it once!
ps: it's YOU'RE, not your, so you're doing it wrong
Edited by Sound Master BIC - 6/25/13 at 12:04pm
post #2733 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

WHAT? Just what is he "doing wrong?"
'Wrong' may not be the best term, but you can't smooth room modes with only one sub. That being the case at least as often as not you're better off splitting your cash between two smaller subs rather than on larger one, so long as they meet frequency response and output needs.
post #2734 of 2834
Sorry, gotta disagree. A higher end sub I think will beat 2 low enders any day. ONE Paradigm Sub 2 will beat FOUR BIC F12's any day, any place, any time!
post #2735 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

Sorry, gotta disagree. A higher end sub I think will beat 2 low enders any day. ONE Paradigm Sub 2 will beat FOUR BIC F12's any day, any place, any time!

LOL!

With six 10" drivers and 4,500w RMS, gee, do you think?

Now, in the spirit of your above, how well will a single Sub 2, deal with room mode issues vs that of four F12's when one only expects their system to do 96dB?

When one posts of lesser subs besting better subs, it's understood one is only climbing up a class or two, not comparing multiple lesser subs to super subwoofers like the Sub 2. Just saying.

-
post #2736 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

Sorry, gotta disagree. A higher end sub I think will beat 2 low enders any day. ONE Paradigm Sub 2 will beat FOUR BIC F12's any day, any place, any time!

You could buy 40 Bic F12's for the price of a single Paradigm Sub 2..

It depends on what your goals are really. If you're more concerned with low frequency extension than overall room smoothing, then sure, a single "higher-end" sub is the way to go. Though many people would agree that room smoothing is equally, if not more valuable than low frequency extension.

Also, a pair of Submersives would give you better room smoothing and extension than the Paradigm Sub 2, for less money. I digress.
post #2737 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

Sorry, gotta disagree. A higher end sub I think will beat 2 low enders any day.
Total output is determined by the driver displacement. It's very easy, commonplace for that matter, to find two less expensive drivers with more displacement than a single driver of twice the price. Then factor in the smoothing of room modes that two subs can accomplish that one cannot and two lower price subs can easily beat one of twice the price. That's the physics of it, and while you may argue against the physics the physics will always win.
post #2738 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post

Your doing it wrong, if your relying on a single subwoofer.
You need to add another PB12 Plus to your setup.

Contrary to what you might think, it’s not about getting louder bass.
Multiple subs help even out the bass response over a larger seating area.
A secondary effect is to help reduce the excessively long decay times of the prominent modal frequencies.

Number one : You have no idea on what I think, that by itself is a totally stupid statement. Re read my posting, I never once said anything about getting louder bass
I mentioned that the SVS blows the BIC out of the water, but that was for the quality of the sound, not the loudness.

Number two : Don't tell me that I'm doing it wrong when you don't have any idea on how big my home theater area is. For example, would you put two PB12 plus subs
in a room that is say 10 x10 x 8 feet high ? You could, but it's not necessary.

Now on to your other statement that I need two PB12 Plus. As my home theater cubic feet area is not big, using the one PB12 Plus works fantastic. Even if I did want to add
a second sub, say something smaller like the BIC F12 or the SVS PB-1000, I do not have the available room to add a second subwoofer. Would two PB12 Plus or two PB-1000's
make it better, perhaps.

Lastly, if you would like to buy me another PB12 Plus, I'll gladly add it to my home theater.
Edited by ferrari fan - 6/26/13 at 6:04pm
post #2739 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

Sorry, gotta disagree. A higher end sub I think will beat 2 low enders any day. ONE Paradigm Sub 2 will beat FOUR BIC F12's any day, any place, any time!
And would not two Paradigm Sub 2s beat one Paradigm Sub 2?
post #2740 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post

And would not two Paradigm Sub 2s beat one Paradigm Sub 2?
Depends on whether you have them in a closet or a gymnasium.
post #2741 of 2834
If you've auditioned the Sub 2 you would not need to ask this question. I don't care how many F12's you cram in a room it won't beat it!
I heard the Sub 2 in a rather large theatre, retailer set up, he also had 2 Sub 15's as well as 4 DSP-3200 set up in the same room. He's set this up for people who are considering multi sub set ups as a comparison. He can switch on/off any of the subs to run a single Sub 15 or both and 1, 2, 3 or all 4 of the 3200's and of course the 1 Sub 2. I did not know which subs were working at any time during his demo, we sat comfortably in the middle of the room and he cycled through asking which we thought sounded good-better-best. They are all great subs, I was actually looking at the 3200 some time ago, but as it turns out, the sound MY EARS heard, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, was best while only the single Sub 2 was playing. This is a room about 25' x 25' with 12-15 foot ceiling. I did not know what subs were where so it was a truly blind test, actually didn't know he was going to do it but there were others there who were part of an event they had going on so he invited us in. Of the 8 people in the room, 6 had the same opinion as me, the others thought the 2 Sub 15's were best. None thought the 4 3200's were best, ALTHOUGH, they sounded friggin awsum! So maybe it's not all about physics?
No idea how 2 Sub 2's would sound but I think it would be overkill and a waste of money, especially given the price of these things, even in this large, beautiful, ideal theatre set up. He said he has never bothered trying 2 in his main room.
Edited by Sound Master BIC - 6/28/13 at 11:29am
post #2742 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

If you've auditioned the Sub 2 you would not need to ask this question. I don't care how many F12's you cram in a room it won't beat it!
I heard the Sub 2 in a rather large theatre, retailer set up, he also had 2 Sub 15's as well as 4 DSP-3200 set up in the same room. He's set this up for people who are considering multi sub set ups as a comparison. He can switch on/off any of the subs to run a single Sub 15 or both and 1, 2, 3 or all 4 of the 3200's and of course the 1 Sub 2. I did not know which subs were working at any time during his demo, we sat comfortably in the middle of the room and he cycled through asking which we thought sounded good-better-best. They are all great subs, I was actually looking at the 3200 some time ago, but as it turns out, the sound MY EARS heard, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, was best while only the single Sub 2 was playing. This is a room about 25' x 25' with 12-15 foot ceiling. I did not know what subs were where so it was a truly blind test, actually didn't know he was going to do it but there were others there who were part of an event they had going on so he invited us in. Of the 8 people in the room, 6 had the same opinion as me, the others thought the 2 Sub 15's were best. None thought the 4 3200's were best, ALTHOUGH, they sounded friggin awsum! So maybe it's not all about physics?
No idea how 2 Sub 2's would sound but I think it would be overkill and a waste of money, especially given the price of these things, even in this large, beautiful, ideal theatre set up. He said he has never bothered trying 2 in his main room.

did you get up and walk around the room to see how well the sub 2 covered the entire room? Im sure the demo was setup for the sweet spot where you were seated. Like Bill said, one sub can not provide a even response across the entire room...it does not matter how powerful the sub is. Yea in one spot the sub2 might of sounded the best but I bet the 4 subs covered the entire room better. If one wants to pressurize the entire room with a even response it takes multiple subs plain and simple.
post #2743 of 2834
^^^^ This is exactly what I was thinking
post #2744 of 2834
Yes all 8 of us were sitting in the exact sweet spot! And yes while I watch movies at home I walk around my room aimlessly as apposed to sitting and watching. You are aware this sub has 6 drivers right? You are also aware it has 4500 watts continuous and 9000 watts peak? I really should try walking around my room while the movie is on, might piss off the wife more than I normally do. " Im just trying to see how well the bass is covered in spots I never sit."
post #2745 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

Yes all 8 of us were sitting in the exact sweet spot! And yes while I watch movies at home I walk around my room aimlessly as apposed to sitting and watching. You are aware this sub has 6 drivers right? You are also aware it has 4500 watts continuous and 9000 watts peak? I really should try walking around my room while the movie is on, might piss off the wife more than I normally do. " Im just trying to see how well the bass is covered in spots I never sit."

6 drivers does not matter unless they are placed around the room accordingly. My point is one sub has a narrow sweet spot, it does not matter how powerful or how many drivers are in the enclosure. The more subs placed around the room the wider the sweet spot. If the sub2 does what you need then thats great, but I was just confirming what Bill said. Not everybody needs or wants a even response across the entire room, but some do. This is often a big detail thats left out when folks are shopping for subs...just sayin.
post #2746 of 2834
I think you misunderstood, I only have 1 F12, I don't have the Sub 2, I WISH!!! My original point was that someone isn't "doing it wrong" by having only one sub and that sometimes one sub can be better, more effective, than multiple subs. The way Paradigm has designed the Sub 1 and 2 along with their PBK interface, they have changed the game, imho and in the opinion of many experts and reviewers in the industry! btw, for me, 1 F12 is fine, could I use another, sure, would I like the Sub 1or 2, absofrigginlutely! But 1 F12 will have to do for now, and I think it does quite well even after a few years of abuse.
post #2747 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

I think you misunderstood, I only have 1 F12, I don't have the Sub 2, I WISH!!! My original point was that someone isn't "doing it wrong" by having only one sub and that sometimes one sub can be better, more effective, than multiple subs. The way Paradigm has designed the Sub 1 and 2 along with their PBK interface, they have changed the game, imho and in the opinion of many experts and reviewers in the industry! btw, for me, 1 F12 is fine, could I use another, sure, would I like the Sub 1or 2, absofrigginlutely! But 1 F12 will have to do for now, and I think it does quite well even after a few years of abuse.

I agree that one sub is not doing it wrong. If the end user is only concerned about one seating area and/or the room is very small, one sub can work great and be much easier to integrate. I wish this was the case for my room. However most folks HT rooms are less than ideal enviroments for a single sub.
post #2748 of 2834
If price is an object, why not just use two Paradigm Sub 1's for the same price as one Sub 2?
post #2749 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfster View Post

If price is an object, why not just use two Paradigm Sub 1's for the same price as one Sub 2?

Hope this is sarcasm. lol
post #2750 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louquid View Post

Hope this is sarcasm. lol

Maybe a little. Just seemed the thread was getting a bit beyond what the OP was asking. We all have our budgets and those are certainly not in mine.
post #2751 of 2834
Yes. I think its safe to say that 1 Paradigm Sub2 vs 2 Paradigm Sub1s is slightly off topic.
post #2752 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfster View Post

Maybe a little. Just seemed the thread was getting a bit beyond what the OP was asking. We all have our budgets and those are certainly not in mine.

I hear ya.
post #2753 of 2834
Well i said i would come back and tell you i think its a fiber base cone not a metallic but then again i'm not sure nor does it matter but i think for 200$ this sub is incredible i feel i need to spend 330$ on a Klipsch 12 inch sub(edit) to have somthing better. I have this Sub set to 3/10 on the volume and -2DB on my receiver.
Edited by jdowne04 - 7/3/13 at 6:59pm
post #2754 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

'Wrong' may not be the best term, but you can't smooth room modes with only one sub. That being the case at least as often as not you're better off splitting your cash between two smaller subs rather than on larger one, so long as they meet frequency response and output needs.
U right, coolcat got a point there.
I have a pioneer sc1522k klipsch F20 and a single sub 12
What I've found out is that when I'm playing music it's alright but when watching movies or playing video games you can tell that a channel is missing, what I did to correct that is I connect sub1 to right on the low input and sub2 to the left/lfe after doing that it sounds a lot better, but when I'm playing music with that setup it sounds like **** so I of to connect only the right or left.
In the future I'm planning and getting a second sub.
post #2755 of 2834
Hey guys i own this sub and like i said i have it set to 3 on the Sub and -3DB on my pioneer the thing is its too is to hear where the bass is coming from i have the crossover at 80hz on the receiver and 5.1 digital on the sub. I noticed the bass is more even when i have the monitor 70's set to large and the sub option set to plus, i here this gives you inaccurate sound but i do find it to sound more even. Note that i can't really move my sub and i have a bedroom setup. Is there anything i can do i ran MCACC and have the distances all right and i checked the phase on my sub and 0 does sound best.

Monitor 70's front(set to large)
CS20 Center
Monitor 35B rear
Bic F12 sub
Crossover 80hz sub set to plus.

Also my sub is 6 inches away from each corner and 17 inches or so in the back
Edited by jdowne04 - 7/9/13 at 1:57pm
post #2756 of 2834
^ Update for me

So it looks like i have it on plus on the subwoofer option on the receiver and then i have the prologic option switched on the Sub and turned the crossover all the way down and turned the volume on the Sub to 4/10 and 0DB on the receiver and it seemed to help a lot i used a online tone generator and kept using 23-100hz until the bass was flat and it seemed to be and most importantly the bass is a lot more even. Honestly i don't like having 1 sub woofer i would recommend to get 2 to even out the bass.

Edit trying more things.
Using in online frequency test it looks like i was still losing a lot between 35-45hz for some reason when i turn the sub option off and turn on my speakers to large i have good base again, so now i actually plugged in my sub to the receiver using speaker wire and turned the fronts on large and put the sub's crossover at 40hz now the bass seems much stronger in this area. I think my receiver is odd when sending bass to the subwoofer using digital.


Also i notice this receiver sends frequency to this sub woofer as high as 160hz when i have the crossover at 80hz maybe this is why i can find it so easy? Probably because this is a budget receiver.

I feel like a troll Edit

Again i still didn't like the sound WTH? I decided to do digital and it sounded better than the fooling around i did. So small and 80hz crossover it is i reran MCACC and it sounded better anyways it actually turns the bass to like 0DB when i turn the Sub to 4 but the bass is real heavy so i turn the sub down to 3 again.
Edited by jdowne04 - 7/11/13 at 11:00am
post #2757 of 2834
post #2758 of 2834
I heard the F12 doesn't truly get below 35Hz. Is there any truth to this? How many movies really get under 25hz?
post #2759 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

I heard the F12 doesn't truly get below 35Hz. Is there any truth to this? How many movies really get under 25hz?

Rest assured the BIC F12 digs much deeper than 35hz....
I have two in my system and they are still hitting hard into the mid 20's....
with usable output at 18hz..... can't say that about too many $400 (2 x 200) subs.
post #2760 of 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

How many movies really get under 25hz?

Just take a look here....http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts/9240
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