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Sim2 Lumis Owners Thread - Page 8

post #211 of 1953
k, pm received.
V Quick overview:
1)Very good ansi. bit better then other good DLPs such us the marants 11s2
2)On/off is really good. Perceptual similar to an 11s2 and an RS2. (for me anything >10K contrast is really good and more is just icing on the cake...)
3)Motion resolution. Best of all digitals I have seen so far. Tomorrow will run FPD patterns on it
4)Noise: its above average noise. I can also hear the iris working, especially when I zap or display OSD.
5)Convergence: Perfect B/G. Red is 1 pixel up on the top, 1 pixel down on the bottom, and .3pixel away at center. Nothing to improve on this.

More to come....After I calibrate the unit.

Sam.
post #212 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Sure would like to see one on a DNP Epic. Its 0.8 gain IIRC. If anyone comes across a Lumis setup with DNP, let me know, I'll go see it.

Scott I do not think this would be a good combo. People reported disappointed to see this has sparkles. Its a shame we were hoping it would not be the case.
post #213 of 1953
Is the new Lumis noiser than a C3X?
post #214 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivercitylad View Post

Is the new Lumis noiser than a C3X?


They sound about the same to me, but I've not metered them. It may also be possible that the Lumis is slightly quieter. (I base that statement on my initial feeling that it was versus the 1080.) Perhaps someone has checked both and can provide more than a subjective statement.

Jim
post #215 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Scott I do not think this would be a good combo. People reported disappointed to see this has sparkles. Its a shame we were hoping it would not be the case.

I'd just have to go AT then and get a bigger screen to burn some lumens, darn .

I had a converstion with an engineer at a laser optics shop re custom ND filters. They don't make them large enough and I'd have to order upa pile to get one done custom, but they had impressive specs anyway. Presumably better than standard photo filters. Minimal MTF and contrast effects. Flar freq. response across the visibile spectrum. Also learned something - unless it's specifically designed otherwise, the angle to place a filter relative to the light is 90 deg. You want it hitting it straight on becasue that's how the AR coarings are engineered to deal with the light wavelengths and prevent scatter. Intuition would have made me (and others) think an angle would work better.

If one of you guys get's bored and has some calipers, measure the width of the rectangular light beam right at the lens and let me know. Be good to kwow how small a filter could be used. How sweet it would be to have a set say 10,20,30,40% that you could switch out, especially if they have minimal (i.e. 1-2%) detrimental effects.

Cheers,
Scott
post #216 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivercitylad View Post

Is the new Lumis noiser than a C3X?

I think it's slightly quieter in low fan and slightly louder in high fan.
post #217 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post


If one of you guys get's bored and has some calipers, measure the width of the rectangular light beam right at the lens and let me know. Be good to kwow how small a filter could be used. How sweet it would be to have a set say 10,20,30,40% that you could switch out, especially if they have minimal (i.e. 1-2%) detrimental effects.

Cheers,
Scott

Sounds like you are going to build a nice custom filter mount so they could be swapped out at will. Next a slide ?

Art
post #218 of 1953
Well, I had mentioned to Alan about a year ago I could do it. Back then the idea was to normalize the brightness between lens on and lens off. Slide a anamorphic in one way, the other way gets a slight filter. Trivial to implement if th efilter was big. But, as I mentioned earlier in one of these Lumis threads, what we need is discrete bulb power RS232 or IR settings. Then one could slide the lens in and at the same time change bulb power to a specified level and control brightness changes that way. If it has enough range that is. It may alrady have the discretes, dunno, I haven't seen the RS232 command set. But that dosen't help those of us with lesser screens than yours trying to not have 75FtL
post #219 of 1953
Scott,
I can confirm the Lumis has discrete power setting for lamp in 20 watt increments via Rs 232.
Ash
post #220 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Scott I do not think this would be a good combo. People reported disappointed to see this has sparkles. Its a shame we were hoping it would not be the case.

This DNP screen is not the greatest screen on Earth, what they charged me for a custom size, with the results not living out to ambient light expectations, I ended up demanding an exchange for the new upcoming gain material, I even stated to a representative that the deal they gave me made them the Bernie Maddoff of screen co. However I can categorically state that the new low gain Supernova as used in the Epic DOES NOT HAVE SPARKLIES. I know you'l say I am out there and have odd tastes, BUT IF ANYONE IS Ground Mole to detect sparklies it's Ruben, he stood in front of the screen looking for defects just last night with the Titan Reference playing Kung FU Panda, he did not see any sparklies, he did find sheen on the velvet by DNP used and poopooed it, apparently he sources a much darker flock. But fair is fair Alan.



Another thing about the Epic, or anyone elses Curved screen except the prototype from Vutec is the major wrinkles on the corners of the screen. While the Lumis was the best image of the show, I think joe kanes light grey new screen surface was better, also the sound though very refined by thiel and a tad stepped back by PS audio, the sound was totally steam rolled over by the Genelec surround.

post #221 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

Scott,
I can confirm the Lumis has discrete power setting for lamp in 20 watt increments via Rs 232.
Ash

Excellent. Those who can use the low setting on 1.78:1 can turn it up for 2.35:1 if they want then.
post #222 of 1953
Peter, thanks. So your screen is the low gain version? SMX Ruben?

re Kane's, I saw him and it at CEDIA but I forgot what the gain is on that screen. Alan Roser was in the same demo with me and I remember chatting with him afterward chuckling about Joe thinking it would be sacrilege to have that puppy microperfed, so AT is out with that one, if I understood right.
post #223 of 1953
Scott,
Correction....
Lowest setting in Lumis bulb is 230 w and Max is 280 w.
Increments via RS232 are 10 watt steps so 230, 240,250 etc.... even better.
BTW Sim 2 supplied latest version Cineslide works great.
Ash
post #224 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

Increments via RS232 are 10 watt steps so 230, 240,250 etc.... even better.
BTW Sim 2 supplied latest version Cineslide works great.
Ash

Yep 10 is even better. And thanks, I'm always very proud to see the CineSlide in theaters like yours.
post #225 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Well, I had mentioned to Alan about a year ago I could do it.

I still think this would be a great product Scott. It reminds me of the motorized filter reels used in astronomy.
post #226 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

I'd just have to go AT then and get a bigger screen to burn some lumens, darn .

I had a converstion with an engineer at a laser optics shop re custom ND filters. They don't make them large enough and I'd have to order upa pile to get one done custom, but they had impressive specs anyway. Presumably better than standard photo filters. Minimal MTF and contrast effects. Flar freq. response across the visibile spectrum. Also learned something - unless it's specifically designed otherwise, the angle to place a filter relative to the light is 90 deg. You want it hitting it straight on becasue that's how the AR coarings are engineered to deal with the light wavelengths and prevent scatter. Intuition would have made me (and others) think an angle would work better.

If one of you guys get's bored and has some calipers, measure the width of the rectangular light beam right at the lens and let me know. Be good to kwow how small a filter could be used. How sweet it would be to have a set say 10,20,30,40% that you could switch out, especially if they have minimal (i.e. 1-2%) detrimental effects.

Cheers,
Scott

I think it was Wolfgang that pointed me at the fact that there's two kinds of ND filters, those based on absorption and those based on reflection. The reflection-based ones are less prone to compromising ANSI. Anyone want to support/rebut this?
post #227 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomhahn View Post

I think it was Wolfgang that pointed me at the fact that there's two kinds of ND filters, those based on absorption and those based on reflection. The reflection-based ones are less prone to compromising ANSI. Anyone want to support/rebut this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmunds Optics Technical Docs View Post

Quote:
What is the difference between using an absorptive ND filter and a reflective ND filter?
There are two types of ND (neutral density) filters: absorptive and reflective. The absorptive type absorb light that is not transmitted, while the reflective type reflect it away. An absorptive ND filter has greatly reduced back reflections when compared to its reflective counterpart. This can be very important for various applications that are severely affected by back reflections, such as electronic imaging. However, since absorptive filters tend to absorb the light passing through them, the result is a slight increase in temperature. If critical temperature control is a factor in your application, we recommend using a reflective ND filter. Also, in absorptive ND filters, optical density is a function of glass thickness - the higher the optical density required, the thicker the filter will need to be. Reflective ND filters gain their properties through a coating material, allowing for thinner substrates and tighter thickness tolerances regardless of optical density. Care should be taken when using the reflective type of ND filter to insure that reflected light does not interfere with the application. In stacks, the reflective filters are not parallel in order to reduce back reflections.

How should I orient my reflective ND or interference filter?
Reflective ND (neutral density) filters and Interference filters will function as specified with either side facing the source. However, we recommend orienting the side with the "mirror-like" reflective coating toward the source. This will minimize any thermal effects resulting from the absorption of the heat by the glass on the other side. Also, having the "mirror-like" side facing away from the source will cause an interference pattern when the source is a coherent beam of light. For filters in general, the coated surface is oriented toward the source. In addition, filters will perform optimally if positioned in a collimated beam of light. This will reduce the angle of incidence and the performance results will closer match that of the filter's design. Interference filters in particular, are extremely sensitive to angle.


So, I'd say reflective would be bad for this application. It would be akin to one giant DMD mirror and you'd have to do something with the light it reflects away. I'd think you definately would not want it to reflect back into the projector. Light might go all over the place in there.
post #228 of 1953
This is an interesting topic.
How do we tell what side of the filter has the coatings. I just spent a few hundred on a filter and do not see a difference between ether side and there is no mention of this in the paper work that came with the filter.





.
post #229 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

This is an interesting topic.
How do we tell what side of the filter has the coatings. I just spent a few hundred on a filter and do not see a difference between ether side and there is no mention of this in the paper work that came with the filter.

Sometimes the ND filters have anti-refelctive (AR) coatings on both sides. But the same document said this about determining the coating side:

Quote:
How do I determine which side of my filter is coated?
The coated surface is easily determined by looking at the edge of the substrate, from the direction of the center of the filter at a slight angle so looking at the inside edge. If you can see the actual edge (thickness) of the glass, then the coating is on the other side. From the coated side, the edge is not visible. This is more difficult to check on coatings that transmit in the visible, but the edge can still be detected by viewing the filter at a steep angle.

I've got a call in to my Schneider industrial optics man to get some input from him on what's best. Of course I expect I know the answer, but we'll see. Probabably be a few days before I have anything to tell.
post #230 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

I've got a call in to my Schneider industrial optics man to get some input from him on what's best. Of course I expect I know the answer, but we'll see. Probabably be a few days before I have anything to tell.

Could you ask him what, if any, detriment is caused to the ANSI number?
post #231 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Sometimes the ND filters have anti-refelctive (AR) coatings on both sides. But the same document said this about determining the coating side:



I've got a call in to my Schneider industrial optics man to get some input from him on what's best. Of course I expect I know the answer, but we'll see. Probabably be a few days before I have anything to tell.


Do the filters you guys have have visible edges(raw) or are they framed ?

Art
post #232 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

Could you ask him what, if any, detriment is caused to the ANSI number?

I will of course. But as all of their stuff is designed and thought of from the taking perspective, things like ANSI CR probably wont' mean anything to them. I'll bring them up to speed

I expect it will just take some experimenting to find out. But if I'm going to start testing them, I want to be sure I'm starting with the best I can. My friends at Sim2 like me, but not enough to give me a Lumis to play with though

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post

Do the filters you guys have have visible edges(raw) or are they framed ?

Both with the one's I've been looking at. There is a wide range in use from industrial to photographic.
post #233 of 1953
MTF would be interesting as well.

In particular, what effect would the combo of ND lens plus anamorphic lens have on the overall MTF and ANSI contrast of the Lumis/AR lens/ND filter system at the screen?

Or in Ash's case, what are the effects of the addition of the AR lens plus port glass on the above, and are they expected to be any different?
post #234 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomhahn View Post

I think it was Wolfgang that pointed me at the fact that there's two kinds of ND filters, those based on absorption and those based on reflection. The reflection-based ones are less prone to compromising ANSI. Anyone want to support/rebut this?

you need to tilt this reflection version one that no light at all are comes back into the optic.
this can make ansi cr. drop and more problems.

also a black part of velvet or similar material should be there to absorve
this light.
post #235 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by twenty/twenty View Post

MTF would be interesting as well.


How are you measuring your three chip MTF ?

Art
post #236 of 1953
This may be silly since I don't have a lot of experience with filters and these may not be applicable, but I bought a fliter to wrap around some LED light strips (DIY backlight) to change the color temperature of the light and it also reduced the light output by 0.5 stops. But at this site you can get all sorts of filters that won't change the color temperature but will decrease the light output by varying degrees. Mostly used by Hollywood to create a night scene during a daytime shoot.

Here is a excerpt from the neutral density filter description:
Quote:


ND (NEUTRAL DENSITY)
ND Filters are designed to reduce the light output (measured in foot candles or candelas) of your light source without changing the color temperature. ND filters are often used on windows to reduce the brightness and balance the contrast ratio of daylight to the indoor or shadowed area.

GamColor ND filters are available in five graduated steps providing for a light loss from 1/2 stop (.15) to 3 stops (1.2). See the convenient GamColor correction chart for your choices of GamColor ND and combination ND and CTO filters. GamColor ND filters are available in five steps: .15, .3, .6, .9 and 1.2.

Here is a link to the page in the site where this excerpt came from called Cine filters


Here is the page where they discuss color theory

Here is the page where they discuss how their filters are made
post #237 of 1953
I had some time watching some movies over this weekend on the Lumis.
I find the picture to be very 3 dimensional....
The most surprising observation is that my front stage has been very refined ... there is very less light reflected back... as compared to my Qualia...
For example, I have curtains red material above the top of the screen (decorative) and the side curtains which were very visible and almost distracting with the Qualia...
Now the picture is so contained within the screen that I do not notice the curtains....the light seems to not spill out of the screen.
I would think that with a much brighter projector it would be the opposite.
The picture the Lumis throws is simply very 'Involving' and I cannot figure out the reason/s why.
Ash
post #238 of 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post

The picture the Lumis throws is simply very 'Involving' and I cannot figure out the reason/s why.
Ash

It beats the Qualia in every measurable parameter perhaps?



Art
post #239 of 1953
Art,
That's for sure... the difference betweenthe Qualia and Lumis is night and day... I skipped a few generations of projectors.
But would it be because of High ANSI Contrast less light spills out of the screen or gets reflected back into the room.? Or would be due to High CR On/Off?
Ash
post #240 of 1953
For those of us screen challenged...

I've had a few technical conversations with some big dogs in the filter optics world. Learned quite a bit. For the best, the photographic ND filters are not on the top of the quality list, even for the best brands. The industrial optics world have better filters. They are judged by density uniformity, lact of striations in the glass (can be there but invisible), parallelism, and surface flatness. You do want the light hitting the filter as perpindicular as possible (angle of incidence). You do not want to use a reflective type filter for that reason in this application (if not for others, too).

There are some industrial quality filters made specifically for motion picture and broadcast television that are high quality, but they are comparing those to the high end industrial filters for me now.

So far I do not have any MTF data, and I may or may not be able to get it. Ditto on CR affects. These aren't inexpensive, so if the "yo get what you pay for" saying goes, they woudl be the way to go for a Lumis install that was too bright. They are much better than the photgraphic (e.g. B+W) which do not have published tolerances, wheras the industrial filters by the same company do. Has a lot to do with the "pour" density, and what density the thing is after it's ground. 2 variables to control which drives costs up.

Potentially bad news so far is the very best industrial filter company only makes a 0.3 density filter as the "lightest" ND filter. It has a very flat frequency response but that's equivilant to one "stop" on a camera, or 50% light reduction (ND 2 in the camera world). There are 0.1 and 0.2 densities available from other companies which I am looking into.

More to come....
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