Why so much AVCHD compression - Page 6

What is an consumer camcorder ? <$2K USD, <$4K USD, <$10K USD ?

I am confused here. EOS-5D MKII + Cannon lens is <3.5K USD.
http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_nkw...Q_fromZQQ_mdoZ

OK, this maybe more than your average mum and dad will want to spend, but these users are generally reluctant to spend over $300 USD anyway.

I would put the EOS-5D MKII firmly in the hobbyist/enthusiast bracket.

Too expensive ? The same argument could be levelled at the Pioneer KURO - this panel is 3x more expensive than some others, yet most would consider it a consumer product.

If you are in the market for a quality DSLR, and a quality Camcorder, the EOS-5D MKII will be much cheaper than buying two separate devices.

MY argument against DSLRs for several years now was, "yeh, nice stills, but where is the video". Well, this has been fixed now.

Cruzed over the VIMEO, and I found the best looking videos I had ever seen using the EOS-5D MKII, and it is less than $3500 USD !!

I have also seen a few tests using cheap lenses on this camera - no significant change in image quality. Genuine CANON lenses are really only needed to get the best out of the 21Mpixel stills, and are not really needed for only 2Mpixel (1920x1080) video.

Want to experiment with depth of field (DOF) to get that professional 'movie' look in your videos - the EOS-5D MKII can do this with correct lens selection. The 'consumer camcorders' you may be referring to will most likely require an expensive (eg $4K) and very bulky DOF adapter, and then you will still need to supply lenses.

So, for $3.5K, the EOS-5D MKII is actually very good value.

BTW, can any camcorder in this price bracket match the EOS-5D MKII in low light performance ? - I doubt it.

Ergonomics look ungainly at first look, but, by the time you add a quality DOF adapter (on rails) and then your lens on top of that, and the larger battery to power it all, to your regular camcorder, then the EOS-5D MKII suddenly looks like a nimble light weight in comparison (cheaper and better image quality too).

I thought there was some kind of time limit on shooting continuous video because the cmos gets too hot.... or was that the Nikon I'm thinking of?

It uses the FAT32 file system, which is widely accepted but can't handle larger files than 4GB per file. Hence, a relatively short recording times.

Pepster, the 5DII isn't classified as a consumer camcorder, for the same reason oranges are not classified as apples. Because that's not what they are.
It's a Digital SLR camera that has video recording capability. It is what it is.

Yes... I'm aware of that but I could have sworn that I read somewhere on either the Canon or the Nikon that they can only shoot in relatively short bursts because the cmos gets too hot.

I would agree with that.... but he does have a point. These cams shoot some pretty brilliant footage and you can do some pretty amazing things with a 35mm lens as compared to a real vid cam. I've seen some people do some crazy stuff trying to get their vid cam to work with 35mm lenses...... electric tape... coat hanger wire... anything it takes to stick one of those lenses to the front of their cam. The Canon is making a big splash because of this and I would not at all be surprised to see this technology brought forth into a video camera format.

Don't forget me.

I would also like to ask what do you think of recording at 1920x1080i60 and converting to 720p60 ?

Sorry for the off-topic.

Oh, I hadn't heard that.

As i have said on another thread after testing my SR12 and FX-7 with test cards country views etc the sr 12 had a little more resolution,the fx 7 was admitidly set at no 7 middle sharpness setting out of 0 to 15 but anything much above 7 gives more than exeptable grain.what i can not understand is an avchd disc made with a mixture of the footage shows the same difference the sr 12s footage shaper but on a blu ray disc with the footage the hdv is sharper showing more resolution than the sr12s.the discs were made with pinnacle 12 ultimate,the hdv is mpeg2 and the avchd mts but how can the avchd disc be better than the blu ray.

I'm not sure what you're comparing all this to, but if you create an avchd disk with a "mixture" of the samples then what you are in fact doing is degrading the HDV by transcoding it to another format (avc in this case).

I'm assuming that when you did the Blu ray disk you used the mpeg2 codec (which is what HDV is). There was no transcoding that took place therefore no degradation to the HDV.... but then the avc got transcoded and suffered a quality loss

I am now hatching an idea to purchase an EOS-5D MKII for xmas (or a newer model), so all my info is based on other people's reviews...

The EOS-5D MKII has a 12-15min shooting limit (variations in reviews...) prabably a FAT32 limitation, but the camera needs also then needs to be 'rested' for >20mins (the CANON sponsored review site review didn't explain why - I presume over heating ?).

The NIKON D90 has a 5min shooting limit due to over heating.

Why so hot ? By my calculations;
14bit per colour x 3 colours x 1920 x 1080 x 30frames = 2491.699Mb/s uncompressed.

To convert to 34Mb/s H264, this camera is compressing at over 73:1 on the fly ! (Can your PC do this ?) And, as the CMOS is not native 1920 x 1080, so also needs to be mixed down from the 21.1Mp sensor, on the fly. This is a big task. Oh - need to add the audio tasks as well.

To improve on quality, many on the web suggest you will need move up to a RED camera - the Red 'One' will cost you $50K USD before you shoot one second of video. Now, $50K could be up for debate, as to whether on not the RED is a consumer camera - but I sure there are serious enthusiasts who have one of these.

Link: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/tg-...eras,5156.html

Note, the RED only records in UNCOMPRESSED video - now there is some data rate to wrangle !

I feel many would regard the $3.5K CANON EOS-5D MKII as being a lot closer to a consumer camera than a $50K+ RED camera.

Is the EOS-5D MKII a still camera or a video camera ? It would seem a many of these cameras are being purchased for purely video work only.

A different angle. I own a 2.5year old FUJI F30 compact camera, and this was the camera of choice the pros use for occasions they did not want to carry a bulky DSLR. Choice of pros does not make it a 'pro' camera.

+1

Yes, I want to see the camcorder manufacturers shaken up and release new models today. The image quality bar has been raised.

Why would you want to do that ? - All conversions loose image quality, and you will loose resolution.

Aaaand..... 1080 TVs (pretty much the standard now) do not upscale 720P perfectly - artifacts, jitter, and general 'softness' may be observed.

Best to record in 1920x1080 if possible. Try it both ways, to see which method looks the best to your eyes.

According to GISMODO, AVCHD standard allow for up to 24Mb/s
Link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/newre...e=1&p=15932517

but the Panasonic choose to limit this to 21Mb/s H264 on the AG-HMC150
Link: http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp...elNo=AG-HMC150

Interestingly, GISMODO quote the Panny AG-HMC150 press release:
"The HMC150 is designed to provide enhanced HD production capabilities for video enthusiasts who desire professional features,..."

and Panny also say of the AG-HMC150 "the HMC150 is a "must have" for video professionals and enthusiasts".

So, is this $6000 camera a 'consumer' device ? I don't believe these distinctions are at all important.

I mean, my Yamaha DSP-A1 home audio amp cost more in 1999 $ than the CANON EOS-5DMKII does in 2009 $ !

Other forums claim that the early 16Mb/s data rate limit for AVCHD was to keep the DVD rotational speed under the maximum allowable for DVDs in the REDBOOK DVD Standard - ie 16Mb/s max.

Many people a re attempting to create AVCHD on DVD media discs with a higher than 16Mb/s, and finding that their player may attempt to read the data, but stops and starts, as it was not designed to spin that fast.

I have created a few AVCHD on DVDR and found that approx 18Mb/s is the highest bit rate for smooth play on my Panny BD35 Blu-ray player.

But, BD-R25 discs are getting cheap now, and are capable of 35Mb/s, so I don't think the 16Mb/s limit is much of an issue now.

REDs are not $50k, they are about $17k plus lens. Red Scarlet maybe even less. Uncompressed is fine for me. 4K resolution is a digital film format, 1080x1920 is a video format, so for "cinematography" which is what all this fuss is about, i would take the Red any day, not to mention the better ergonomics and audio capabilities. As I have said, the EX1 even with the half inch sensors is better for video than the 5D with a 35mm sensor. Enough sales pitching, we get it... Pepster likes the 5DMk2. So much so, he writes it out in full "CANON EOS-5DMKII" every time he refers to it. Do I see some obsession?

1) the hmc150 retails for $3500 or less, it's never been anywhere near $6,000.

2) the 21Mbps avchd that you are referring to is probably the average bitrate, not the peak 24Mbps that avchd allows... using vbr saves storage space.

I hope i explained things correctly but on the avchd disc and the blu ray disc the hdv footage lost no quality resolution,and on the avchd disk the avchd sr-12 clips lost no quality resolution so the slight higher resolution of the sr 12 avchd could clearly be seen the same as when the cams are played directly to separate inputs on my tv.But on the blu ray disc the sr-12 avchd lost a little of its sharness resolution so that on playback the hdv clips are the sharper with the slight resolution edge.

When you put the avc on the Blu Ray disk, did you use the Mpeg2 codec?

I'm pretty sure Pinnacle can only make a REAL blu ray disk with mpeg2. This being the case you would have lost quality in transcoding from avc to mpeg2

Yes i should have realised pinnacle can only make a bd disc mpeg2 by default but the avchd stays MTS files so to make full resolution bds with my avchd footage i will have to change software ,THANKS

Why ? well :

The movie i want to make will also have game footage in it, there is a very small difference there between 1080P and 720P but a HUGE difference between 30P and 60P

I really need 60p and i really need uncompressed

The only way to get uncompressed is a blackmagic card + a camera ( HDV for now, HF10 might also work ) but its 1080p

The only cameras with 720p60 are samsung mx10 and sayno ones ( in my price range of 500$ ) but i am not sure they bipass the internal compression

To sum up what i hope for :
-the game footage will be uncompressed 720p60 at 180 FPS ( for slowmotion )
-the camera footage 720p60 uncompressed

To sum up what i can get :
-the game footage will be uncompressed 720p60 at 180 FPS ( for slowmotion )
-blackmagic + hv20 so 1080i60 ( and the resize ..... )

So i hope you see my problem, i will do heavy composition on the camera footage and most of it will be recorded with greenscreen so i want uncompressed but i can get it at 720p60 ( need the p60 ) only if i resize not default raw ...

As for the TV : a 720p projector.

Cheers, hope you can give me some advice, i know resizing will look not as good as the original but ...

I use the full term "CANON EOS-5DMKII" to make it easier for readers to understand, and I always appreciate when posters use full names rather than abbreviations - I am merely extending the same courtesy.

Obsessed ? I do not own any CANON products in any category ! - How's that for obsessed !, I mean, Chevypower, some people can become obsessed with a particular brand of car...

I am a brand tart, and would happily buy a Toyota over a Ford.

Q - Why the (abbreviation for Chevypower's benefit) 5D2 ?
A - The 5D2 has raised the quality bar so greatly, that people all over the web have taken notice.

BTW, posters over on the SCARLET USERs forum (RED Cameras) are mostly drooling over the '5D2' and many believe the 5D2 has better low light performance than the current RED 'ONE'.
Link: http://www.scarletuser.com/showthrea...t=1013&page=16

The '5D2' can be had for $3500, including lens - ready to go !

According to Theo Valich, from Toms Hardware, "Overall, the investment in RED gear is going to end up around $50.000 for this camera."
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/tg-...eras,5156.html

Perhaps Theo could have done it a little cheaper, but it looks like you will have to spend 10x the $$$ on a RedOne, to achieve the same, or slightly better results than the CANON EOS-5DMKII.

I recommend reading the entire thread about the 5D2 on the the SCARLET USERs forum
http://www.scarletuser.com/showthrea...t=1013&page=16
as other top consumer cameras are also discussed and compared to these cameras.

720p can look very nice indeed - especially at the higher bit rates.

IMHO - and my opinion only, if it were me, I would be making the effort to shoot in 1080p30. I do not full understand your requirements, but I am aware that IMAX is shot in 60fps and looks very smooth indeed !
But, there are 1000s of movie makers who swear by 24fps...(why?...)

You problem is that 1920x1080 has become a standard now, and some blu-ray players (eg the new Panasonics) will upscale to 1080p fairly smoothly, but some won't. Even if the player upscales reasonably smoothly to 1080p, the image will be 'soft'. You just cannot beat a true pixel match (aspect) all through your the system, from camera to display device.

But, 30P (and 24P) will cause 'flicker' on high contrast / fast motion on plasmas (LCDs are too slow to show flicker).

All is not lost. If you choose to film in 30P, the new generation of Panasonic Plasmas this year will have frame doubling, as do the new model projectors, to 'interpolate' 60P from 30P. I expect the 24P/30P flicker issue to disappear as these new tech devices become the norm.

Been reading for awhile, but couldn't be quiet any longer. It seems the arguments have gotten away from the real issue. Lets not argue about the merits of various camcorders any more. It's been pretty well established that the AVC codec is more effecient than MPEG2, but that it requires more computer horsepower. Good editors have been slow to appear as well.

As I understand it, the difference between AVC and AVCHD is that AVC is a file format, and AVCHD further defines a folder structure for containing AVC files. Take an m2t file away from its AVCHD folders, and it's just an AVC file. In addition to playing Blu-ray discs, Blu-ray players can play AVCHD discs (AVCHD folder structure burned onto a red laser disc work just fine).

I see three technologies in the downward spiral of death: recording tape, film, and cathode ray tubes - and good riddance. Some time ago, I had to have an expensive repair to the firewire on an HDV camcorder just to retrieve previous recordings. I am NOT a fan of a medium that relies on the health of the camcorder to retrieve my video. To me, SD(HC) cards are the only way to go. They are compact, reliable, have no moving parts to make noise, and can be read by a $10 card reader. They're getting cheaper by the moment too!

No format that relies on tape will be around much longer.

Dave

Sorry Dave, and others, I only raised the CANON 5DMKII to show how this camera is recording H264 @ 34Mb/s.

Just how many moving parts were there on a tape based camcorder ? - enormously complex.

I see a day when all enthusiast camcorders will have an option of recording in 'RAW' mode, and new cards are coming to enable this:

"CES 2009: Pretec has introduced a 32GB CFast, the smallest solid-state drive (SSD) to feature a SATA interface. The SATA interface should allow CFast cards, the next-generation devices from the CompactFlash Association, to reach speeds of up to 375MB/s. The 32GB Pretec card is capable of transfer speeds of up to 160MB/s (300% faster than the fastest CF card today), and will be available next month, with a 64GB version to follow soon. There are no cameras at present that accept the CFast format."
Link: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0901/09...oragecards.asp

2TB cards are also coming;
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/sd-...l#xtor=RSS-181

Times are a changing. My new TV plays camcorder AVCHD SD cards directly - no need to make spinning disks to play back footage.

the canon h.264 is not the same thing as avchd, the main difference being that it has a lot less compression... that is good for less conatination later down the line, but nobody knows for sure if the canon bitstream actually contains more picture information than the avchd bitstream would, if it was used instead.

Ok, I am fine with people liking something, even liking something a lot. When I say obsession, I don't mean people who think a Canon 5D MkII is great, or a Chevy Camaro is great. But when someone says a Canon 5D2 is better than a RED or Sony F35, or Genesis, or a Camaro is better than a Ferrari F430 or a Bugatti Veyron - it's like talking with manure coming out of your mouth.
You can say a Cobalt 2 door is cheaper than a Veyron, so therefore it's better. Sorry, that logic is crap.
Now, we have been over the benefits and cons to using the 5D2 as a video camera already, so you don't have to keep selling us on it.
I will list it again just so you know that I get it.

Pros: $2699 plus lens
1080x1920 recording
35mm CMOS sensor
instantly use all the L-series lenses for video
larger sensor/fast lenses = more control over DOF
more light sensitive

Cons:
Crap ergonomics for video (zoom position, WB, Audio levels, iris, EVF, balancing, external mics)
only 44,100khz audio
no XLR inputs
the video recording is a Television/Video standard (not Digital Cinema - which people mistakenly think this camera is good enough for).
Lack of frame rate choice.
Lack of Continuous recording (4GB files max).
Does not do better quality video than a dedicated video camera Sony EX1.

If you still want it for video, then great... if the cons outweigh the benefits (as it does with me), then you don't give a crap how many times someone points out those few benefits that you already know about.

Red Scarlet cannot be judged yet, it's still not out - along with the Red Epic, but so far it looks great.

And for the record i am not obsessed with Chevys, I took a test drive of the 2009 Ford F150 (because I am open minded), and I would take that over a Silverado or a Ram. Though I admit, I am obsessed with cars. Not really partial to any particular brands, just whatever is best at the time.

Yeah .. well i will just have to buy the hv20 and a black magic card and test myself.

THNX, cheers.

Sometimes i am losing quality[resolution]exporting from my SR-12 to my pc and other times not,i have proved this with my tests and there is no doubt at times i would say 10% is lost via usb export, how can this happen.

Must be transcoding using a lossy codec. Or bit rate, or even resolution is reduced on importing due to a setting?