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Digital Active Speaker Thread..... - Page 3  

post #61 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Nothing yet... I will move very cautiously.. I hate equipment-hopping. I have kept my current system almost the same for 5 years or more... I feel the urge to change speakers.. but am extremely satisfied with my electronics... I am interested in a hybrid approach... Active Digital Crossover but the rest of the system would be regular analog amplifier and passive speakers sans-crossover.. My current speakers lend themselves very much to active crossovers.. The cost could be substantial, when you use 3 amps of similar qualities my current reference being far from inexpensive... I also need the most tranparent Pream/DAC/Crossover my ears will find and I don't even know where to begin my search, let alone audition.. So it is a project.. but one I am looking forward to.. I forget to add that I am researching Music Servers and DAC capable of the highest resolutions... The behold looks better and better to me .. I must hear it first.. My ears not my eyes (reading a FR and other specs) are my final judges...

I would suggest that 3 inexpensive amps will outperform 1 expensive amp every day of the week. So i wouldn't worry about getting less than exotic amps in a tri-amp system.
post #62 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

It took NHT 5 years to bring Xd to market. It shouldn't have taken that long, but OTOH, there was a lot of tweaking and discovery along the way.

And John I made this discovery today. I'm not certain of the source but you may want to look into it if it's true and buy up all the NHT parts you need to last you.


The company is still in business, Customer Service, Parts and Repair Services will be ongoing BUT the firm is shutting down regular operations as of March 31, 2009.

They go on to say...

"Now will be your last opportunity to order NHT products. Product will be available on first come, first serve basis - we reserve the right to accept (or reject) any order. No "runs" on any product will be allowed. We are out of iC1's currently. Surely there will not be enough Classic Three's to go around so we recommend you focus on other products."
post #63 of 481
Two remarks :
===========
This discussion should not be digital vs. passive x-overs. An active x-over is already far superior to the passive one, as it sits before the amps and is free from driver relationships mentioned by others here. I'm not saying you need to like the sound of pro speakers, but pros have understood the tight controll of such a design and you find only analogue active designs in reference main monitors or eventually digital active designs.

On volume controll. Genelec offers via GLM software on XP the possibility to steer all volumes of all involved speakers. It's still a burden for home cinema to use a PC to steer volume of speakers, but at least it is possible, if the processor does not offer it.

However, if the processor doesn't do it and the digital speakers are set to -0dbFS you may end with artifacts at low levels, depending how well dithering is implemented. Here I'm not the expert though, but I had some probs with my 5 Philips and the Meridian 565 back then at low levels.
post #64 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

It is my understanding that Meridian limits the digital output to 44k when connected to a non Meridian speaker.

1x FS (44.1 or 48K) depending on the sampling rate of the input.
post #65 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I'm trying to convince NAD to offer digital outputs on future cards for their modular T175 and M15 preamps. The problem is a lack of a digital speaker standard with on/off and volume information encoded in the signal. That means that IP will likely become the de facto standard.

Cat5 / Cat5e / Cat6 is an inexpensive, easy to work with and excellent cable for low level signals.
post #66 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

In the past Meridian had 4x SPDIF (565) = 8 channels, that was in the "before HDMI times"....

They still do. The newer addition will be "SpeakerLink" which is a Cat5 solution. I don't know how long before it gets added to the processors, but it is in place across almost all of their loudspeaker models now.


Quote:
The TACT, of which Peter shows pictures of on a regular basis has obviously 4 AES/EBU outs.....but no HD sound chips, right ?

I thought that was coming.

Quote:
If you only need stereo you can use a pair of dsp speakers, take the SPDIF out of the cd player and run into a professional processor, like a cheap Behringer and convert to AES/EBU.

WHat's going to control volume in that configuration?


Quote:
The JLs look nice, but I have not understood, if their inputs are digital as well as analogue or just either one ? Genelec offers both....

The JL AUdios are analog active loudspeakers. Actually they're kind of an odd hybrid. Analog input, A/D conversion, DSP processing, D/A conversion followed by amplification.

Assuming there was a standard, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to add in a digital input to the Primacy speakers.
post #67 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

An active x-over is already far superior to the passive one, as it sits before the amps and is free from driver relationships mentioned by others here.

Yes, but the lack of choices on the speaker side and the prepro side (with the Meridian being castrated) might offset this for some people. I wish the top of the line Denon and Anthem units, for instance, had digital outs.
post #68 of 481
Hi John,
I did not follow much after I sold the first version of the 861, but I thought with hi-res formats and MHR somehting changed on the digital out. Good to hear they are still the same.

Quote:
Quote:
If you only need stereo you can use a pair of dsp speakers, take the SPDIF out of the cd player and run into a professional processor, like a cheap Behringer and convert to AES/EBU.

WHat's going to control volume in that configuration?

Either processor or the speakers (which can be quite cumbersome, as you may want it by remote). Some active speakers actually came with their own stereo processor for hook up to most often used media, like Revox did. That was smart.

Quote:
I thought that was coming.

Hope so, although Tact is not my style.

Quote:
The JL AUdios are analog active loudspeakers. Actually they're kind of an odd hybrid. Analog input, A/D conversion, DSP processing, D/A conversion followed by amplification.

Not odd, but odd indeed not offering direct digital inputs.

Quote:
Assuming there was a standard, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to add in a digital input to the Primacy speakers.

Well, AES/EBU is one....SPDIF as well....
post #69 of 481
syswei, I see your remarks more as a question of taste, and that we cannot argue about Technically, I do not see the constraints you mention.
post #70 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

And John I made this discovery today. I'm not certain of the source but you may want to look into it if it's true and buy up all the NHT parts you need to last you."

Source is the owners of the company. Pretty sad, though I'll find out if they're willing to sell, I had other buyers lined up before the last sale. Chris Byrne is a great guy, but he just doesn't have the CEO gene, so I was expecting it to happen. When they took over, I gave them an agenda of 20 things they could do to turn around the company. They did none of it and did quite a few things that bordered on suicidal, including pissing off their entire dealer network (again). That's why I just gave up last year, despite OB's assertions that I was 'let go'.
post #71 of 481
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

They still do. The newer addition will be "SpeakerLink" which is a Cat5 solution. I don't know how long before it gets added to the processors, but it is in place across almost all of their loudspeaker models now.

I understood that it was just on the 7200s, but I could be wrong, though that is what I was told (or maybe read). I know it's not on the DSP3100s. It's a little more elegant, though not as simple as I'd have liked with the AC11.
Quote:

WHat's going to control volume in that configuration?

Well, you could use a McCormack 5.1 analog preamp.
Quote:

The JL AUdios are analog active loudspeakers. Actually they're kind of an odd hybrid. Analog input, A/D conversion, DSP processing, D/A conversion followed by amplification.

Same as NHT Xd. The way Meridian does it is better, but more expensive. It would still qualify as digital active if the crossovers are digital.
Quote:

Assuming there was a standard, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to add in a digital input to the Primacy speakers.

The general lack of interest has seemingly prevented even the proposal of a standard AFAIK. Well, I though I heard somebody floating something, but not sure what happened.
post #72 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

syswei, I see your remarks more as a question of taste, and that we cannot argue about Technically, I do not see the constraints you mention.

It's not purely a matter of taste. The current prepros that include digital outs also happen to be a bit behind the times as far as offering features. If those features are useful to me, then going with digital speakers isn't necessarily a superior overall solution. In principle, one could use an analog-out prepro and add a set of AD conversion outboard, but that adds cost and potentially degrades the sonic result.
post #73 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun5 View Post

My room uses all active speakers. All speakers except the subwoofer are digitally active. My LRC are Dynaudio AIR25's and the rears are AIR6's. All the AIR speakers are using AES digital input from a TacT TCS.

It took me several years to upgrade to the AIR speakers, mainly because I thought there was going to be more processors arriving to output a decoded digital signal. TacT and Goldmund should be at the top of anyones list if they are going to consider digital active speakers. Theta does it, but doesn't allow for volume control and Meridian limits output to 44k.

I'm in the middle of the upgrade, so everything is far from optimium. Give me another month and I'll know if it was a good move...

Very interesting, I didn't know anyone on AVS had Dynaudio AIRs. Will be interested to read about your findings once your upgrade is complete.
post #74 of 481
syswei, to me it's taste. Until we get 4x AES/EBU or 4x SPDIF outs on any processor out there, be it Onkyo or Denon or else, I go the way JL does. I use a HT processor with 8 analog XLR outs and feed DSP active and analogue active speakers.

That way I have one more A/D + D/A conversion in the dsp speakers, but that is nowadays an easy one at 24 Bits. I get rid of much more sound compromising hardware, that is analogue passive x-over. I also get active controll (bi-amping) in all speakers and I get that highly precise dsp x-over with best and steepest slopes. I'd rather stick my head into my room accoustics than to fear another conversion.

One day we have a prefect world and we all share that dream...
post #75 of 481
Latest iteration of Trinnov processor has fairly advanced digital crossovers, bass management, and PEQ, plus, volume control. However, it lacks any surround processing.

I'm considering using it for four way crossover duties for Left / Right speakers, three way for the Center, and one way for the four surrounds.
post #76 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

I find the 8240 just right....
Are you listening near field ?

Yes. They are actually too powerful and the amplifier noise is too high for sitting so close (3m).
Any recommendations for a pair of another brand? Must have AES-EBU in and very low noise from 2m away.
Intended use side speakers for 7.1 system.
post #77 of 481
Thread Starter 
I think the problem right now is that the pro speakers lack the great acoustic design and most high-end speakers lack the digital technology. Even those JLs, using soft cones, makes no sense except for those that like a softer, less resolving presentation. Promising, but another example of there not being sufficient selection to suite everyone's taste. Though I wasn't a fan of the dual domes (purely for high output) and the horizontal layout, these still born NHT Pro Studio DEQX speakers sure had the all metal magnesium and aluminum drivers -

post #78 of 481
Quote:


Yes. They are actually too powerful and the amplifier noise is too high for sitting so close (3m).

MHafern, that is not clear to me. Either you mean "No" instead of "yes", that you are not sitting near field, which is actually ca. 1,5 meters or 5 feet, or the noise is too high to sit closer than 3 Meters, which is far field, then "Yes" makes sence ?

My point was a different one. The other speakers you have appear to be really, really good 3 way monitors, which probably have a better bundling characteristics for listening beyond what Genelec specifies for the 8250 (which is only 2,3 meters and near field). That means the 8250 will get sooner a darker timbre due to reverb kicking in although is has DCW, which is not helping in the lower midrange and upper bass power response. Power response is there mainly decided by the bass/midrange driver size. Hence the 3 way speaker might sound brighter at 3 meters for example, which is a good sign, a sign of more direct sound, as in such high end speakers I would not expect any sounding.

You can try to shelve the 8250 up a bit with GLM. On the noise it is the way it is. I can only advice, if you don't like them feel free to disposal them to my address
post #79 of 481
I do not like the JL Audio approach... I would avoid it.. Aside from Behold, TacT (not sure on that by the way)what other company (ies) have a Pre with Digital Crossovers and Analog outputs?
post #80 of 481
Thread Starter 
I don't think it's an approach that needs to be avoided *although* I am surprised to see it on a $20K/pair speaker.

I'd rather have an added 24/96 DAC/ADC than go through passive components.
post #81 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

Which companies have preamp processors that have digital outputs for 7.1? (Not counting Meridian, which I gather uses proprietary connections.)

Here are pics of the DCI enabled Tact TCS MK III handbuilt to our combined Home Theater and DCI specs.

Cleanest sounding preamp with HDMI connections that I have heard. It creams the Denon with a level of transparency that is fascinating. The denon sounds muddy by comparison, the onkyo thin and tinny. Of course this is a BETA UNIT WITH SEVERAL ISSUES BUT AS A 12 CHANNEL SURROUND PROCESSOR THIS IS SOME SERIOUS ENGINE.







post #82 of 481
The Tact doesn't appear to have enough analog outs to do active crossovers in a surround environment ....

Assume three ways for the front L/C/R, four surrounds not actively crossed, and two subs. That's 15 analog outputs against the 12 in the picture.

Can you add more analog outs to the Tact? Or, would you have to go digital out to Tact amps with their built in multichannel crossovers?

The Trinnov has enough capacity to do all the crossovers and bass management (and more), but lacks any surround decoding that the Tact has in spades.
post #83 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post


Or, would you have to go digital out to Tact amps with their built in multichannel crossovers?

yes.
post #84 of 481
Cinermax, one thing that's pretty annoying, and, limiting the spread of active crossovers (and similar digital processing): vendors locking us into their proprietary technology stacks. It'd help if there was an agreed set of architectural standards.

I can't actively cross with Tact or Meridian unless I use all their gear, or, construct kludgey work arounds.

I might even give Tact a try, once again, if I wasn't locked into their amps too http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/smilies/smile.gif
post #85 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

Hi John,
I did not follow much after I sold the first version of the 861, but I thought with hi-res formats and MHR somehting changed on the digital out. Good to hear they are still the same.

It did. It allowed for transfer greater than 1x FS (88.2K and 96K). Hi-res (2x FS) must travel on an encrypted path which MHR provides.

1x FS can travel with or without MHR encryption.
post #86 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post

I understood that it was just on the 7200s, but I could be wrong, though that is what I was told (or maybe read). I know it's not on the DSP3100s. It's a little more elegant, though not as simple as I'd have liked with the AC11.

You're wrong. It's been added to the 8000, 5200 as well.

Current line of DSPs are 3100, 5200, 7200 and 8000 so 3 out of 4. My guess is that it will go into the next electronics pack update on the 3100.

Quote:


Same as NHT Xd. The way Meridian does it is better, but more expensive. It would still qualify as digital active if the crossovers are digital.

I have a problem with the A/D and D/A in the path where it's extraneous.
post #87 of 481
Quote:


I have a problem with the A/D and D/A in the path where it's extraneous

I think here we finally come to the very bottom of feelings, when we talk about digital active speakers and available digital interfaces from processors/pre-amplifiers.

Within high end, comming/looking from/at the past with 16Bit/44,1/48KHz A/D-D/A alot of feelings have evolved, we still keep alive.

Today we have AD/DA @ 24Bits up to 96Khz, the later up to 192Khz. I think until one has optimized his room to 0,3sec specs in reverb, it's just fair to say that another AD/DA coversion when done right, it totally harmless, when compared to a bend/sounded FR, and x-over artifacts by a passive x-over.

As said, by going analogue or digital active, you also get another benefit of bi- or tri-amping, tighter driver controll in the speakers.
post #88 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

Here are pics of the DCI enabled Tact TCS MK III handbuilt to our combined Home Theater and DCI specs.

Nice, but where is it? When is it available??
post #89 of 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post

MHafern, that is not clear to me. Either you mean "No" instead of "yes", that you are not sitting near field, which is actually ca. 1,5 meters or 5 feet, or the noise is too high to sit closer than 3 Meters, which is far field, then "Yes" makes sence ?

Sorry, I was not aware of how far exactly near reaches. I sit ~2m away.
Quote:


My point was a different one. The other speakers you have appear to be really, really good 3 way monitors, which probably have a better bundling characteristics for listening beyond what Genelec specifies for the 8250 (which is only 2,3 meters and near field). That means the 8250 will get sooner a darker timbre due to reverb kicking in although is has DCW, which is not helping in the lower midrange and upper bass power response. Power response is there mainly decided by the bass/midrange driver size. Hence the 3 way speaker might sound brighter at 3 meters for example, which is a good sign, a sign of more direct sound, as in such high end speakers I would not expect any sounding.

I have Tact room correction. That should help, no?
If the Genelec are made for sitting so close, what's the point of the available power and basic high system noise (since the amplifier is always fully on)? Hearing damage? You can not sit so close and not lower the volume digitally by 25db or more or you get blasted.
The Klein and Hummel boxes seem to have lower noise. Any experiences with these?
post #90 of 481
FYI guys, here is an external digital crossover (and more) which I have seen bundled with Dynaudio pro monitors and Chord amps:

http://www.xta.uk.com/products-series4.html
http://www.xta.uk.com/pdfs/XTA_4SERIES_BRO.pdf
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