Originally Posted by Bruins29
Russ and Oldschool, (BTW good to see you again) while I agree what you are saying I think this debate has become such black and white on one particular issue that we seem to have all missed the point of why we are here. Obviously its two things (IMO anyway) help each other get the most performance out of our systems and educate the masses.
What I think you guys have an issue with are the absolute blanket statements being made that "wire is wire" and it cant improve anything. What I think you have to look it is the main issue. I dont think most of the guys here in the "wires dont make a difference" cam are saying there is absolutely no place for them and anyone who owns them has wasted their money (some have obviously) I think their feelings might be more on a level of practicality and realism with the cables.
For example...and this is how I feel. When a new poster here or any regular consumer comes here there is probably a good chance that they assume that the more expensive the cable that most likely the better it will sound. I think that is a fair assumption. So this consumer is planning a system and already has a preconcieved notion about cables.
When this consumer comes to us for advice it seems that there are 3 possible answers. 1. They wont improve SQ. 2. They do/potentially could increase SQ. 3. Uee your ears to decide.
So, lets assume "Mr consumer" does what we all probably feel is the right thing. He takes door number 3 and then goes and does what any normal average consumer would do. He visits hi-end shops with cables. He might go and ask to have several different ones hooked up for comparison. Now, can you guys honestly tell me that this type of test is going to give him a fair shot at determining whether cables are a sound investment. Non of us can speculate how any of these things are tested but can you imagine "Mr consumer" going into a shop and doing a test like this with the sales person saying "Ok Mr consumer, now I am going to plug in these $1000 cables" "Cant you just hear that smoother high end." The sales guy breathing down his neck only concerned with one thing - Selling "Mr Consumer" something. I know I am being a little dramatic but I am sure this goes on every day. Every single day in every shop in the world. Just like car nonsense goes on in car dealerships.
My point is this. Most (and frankly I am tempted to say all) consumer have no way to really use the best advice given to them....Which is "use your own ears". They cant perform a fair unbiased test, Period! They have no way to take various cables home, they have no idea that a DBT would be really the only way to discern if there was any difference and I am sure most do not even know how to conduct a propper DBT or what one is...etc...
So, given all of that, and given that I would say 80% of the people who come to this forum who are asking about cable are asking about whether or not its a leigt place to sink funds in order to improve sound, dont you think we may owe thse guys a bit more than use your own ears? I think its a little silly to tell someone to do a test when we are all pretty sure the test will be majorly flawed, and will only succeede in one thing, which is "Mr consumer" hears what he wants to hear.
Again, most of these people (the ones coming to AVS for advice) are already sure that more expensive cable means more performance. Why aren't we doing more to make sure that these consumers are completely stripped of all the useless info in their minds and re-educated to understand that there have never been one scientific test done to show cables make a difference and if you want to do your own test these are the proedures. You have to do A, B, and C or dont bother because you will most likely hear just want you want to.
All I see here usualy is people who think they know (like the typical consumer we were just talking about) or people who have made an investment in said cables and are here to defend their purchase. Why is that?
Again, not saying there is anything wrong with high-end cables. I dont consider it waste of money for those who know what cables are all about. I am saying that most people who come here usually need to make a snap descision on cables and dont have time to compare, or the means to do it or care to do it.
So, shouldn't we just error on this side of caution a bit more and tell them that there are better things to spend money on that will make a much bigger difference in SQ? Here is what I see as a problem - Instead we tell them they "could"......The consumer takes the easy/practical way out and assumes that means they "will" (since they cant compare) and goes for the more expensive cable. And if they do comare its a completely faulty test.
This is exactly what perpetuates the real problem and keeps the cycle going.