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Planar 8150 follow up impressions - Page 2

post #31 of 766
2/24/09 at 12:08am
Thread Starter 
Planar has been shipping the updated versions since last summer to the best of my knowledge so I don't think you have to worry about it unless you literally bought one of the first batch sold.
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post #32 of 766
2/24/09 at 12:31am
Can someone measure and review a pd8130 ?
The cine4home.de review must have been of the original version cause pd8150 scored 11k:1 on/off
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post #33 of 766
2/24/09 at 12:38am
You can't consider that 11K:1 real on-off since iris can't be opened and closed at same time !
Planar 8150 real on-off is always 2.700:1
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post #34 of 766
2/24/09 at 1:49am
it's definetely not "imaginary" .. it's just "dynamic" instead of "native". Just cause its dynamic, doesn't mean its meaningless. By the same logic, native on/off isnt real either, only ANSI is real, cuz thats what you get in a single frame.
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post #35 of 766
2/24/09 at 2:46am
Not true. Ansi is what you get from pixel to pixel. In one single frame you can the high on/off contrast. In dynamic iris not.
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post #36 of 766
2/24/09 at 3:16am
I see, my bad.
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post #37 of 766
2/24/09 at 3:25am
also native will give you an idea of how much punchy low apl scene will be
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post #38 of 766
2/24/09 at 3:39am
I may be a voice out of the choir.
I find unaccettable that from time to time operators or unrevealed operators start threads in forums like this in order to spread an hype to empty their unselled stock of vprs.
Am I the only one who asks himself why Planar wouldn't published advices of this new series of 8150 if it really existed??????
In a crisis period,considering the high competitive sector,one of the most famous and appreciated vpr productor keep something like this unrevealed??
Admitting this is something true,without any surprise seems there are no chances for the customer to know which version he is going to buy.
Like it's the first time I hear this sort of things.
It's the same thing over and over.
Customers are mainly considerated as brainless chickens ready to be cooked.
Instead of rising hypes it should be a duty for sellers/producers to provide infos to those who are going to spend tons of bucks.They should be able to say:''this is,without any doubt,the new version'' and '' that is the old serie''.
As long as this will be impossible, any word about this new serie is nothing that BS!!!!!!!!!!!! or usual stupid useless (for those customers who use brain) rants.
Happy and ready to apologise if I am wrong about what I said.
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post #39 of 766
2/24/09 at 5:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelvinU View Post

Customers are mainly considerated as brainless chickens ready to be cooked.

That's just how I feel sometimes..."considerated (sic) as a brainless chicken..." OK now.
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post #40 of 766
2/24/09 at 6:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelvinU View Post

I may be a voice out of the choir.
I find unaccettable that from time to time operators or unrevealed operators start threads in forums like this in order to spread an hype to empty their unselled stock of vprs.
Am I the only one who asks himself why Planar wouldn't published advices of this new series of 8150 if it really existed??????
In a crisis period,considering the high competitive sector,one of the most famous and appreciated vpr productor keep something like this unrevealed??
Admitting this is something true,without any surprise seems there are no chances for the customer to know which version he is going to buy.
Like it's the first time I hear this sort of things.
It's the same thing over and over.
Customers are mainly considerated as brainless chickens ready to be cooked.
Instead of rising hypes it should be a duty for sellers/producers to provide infos to those who are going to spend tons of bucks.They should be able to say:''this is,without any doubt,the new version'' and '' that is the old serie''.
As long as this will be impossible, any word about this new serie is nothing that BS!!!!!!!!!!!! or usual stupid useless (for those customers who use brain) rants.
Happy and ready to apologise if I am wrong about what I said.

There should be a noted serial number from that point on all machines received the changes.




.
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post #41 of 766
2/24/09 at 6:29am
This brainless chicken got to see a projector that looked substantially better than their previous one

If I see them I'll tell them to call it the 8150a
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post #42 of 766
2/24/09 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

There should be a noted serial number from that point on all machines received the changes.


I would agree...but many manufacturers provide the same low level of service. For example, the Integra receivers and processors have had firmware upgrades available for some time. I have never received a notice about them. And what about the Blu-Ray player firmware updates? Many times we get a notice about these updates through these forums instead of the manufacturer.
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post #43 of 766
2/24/09 at 6:39am
and who bought them just before the improvements ? guess they must be really happy to hear these news ...
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post #44 of 766
2/24/09 at 7:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelvinU View Post

I may be a voice out of the choir.
I find unaccettable that from time to time operators or unrevealed operators start threads in forums like this in order to spread an hype to empty their unselled stock of vprs.
Am I the only one who asks himself why Planar wouldn't published advices of this new series of 8150 if it really existed??????
In a crisis period,considering the high competitive sector,one of the most famous and appreciated vpr productor keep something like this unrevealed??
Admitting this is something true,without any surprise seems there are no chances for the customer to know which version he is going to buy.
Like it's the first time I hear this sort of things.
It's the same thing over and over.
Customers are mainly considerated as brainless chickens ready to be cooked.
Instead of rising hypes it should be a duty for sellers/producers to provide infos to those who are going to spend tons of bucks.They should be able to say:''this is,without any doubt,the new version'' and '' that is the old serie''.
As long as this will be impossible, any word about this new serie is nothing that BS!!!!!!!!!!!! or usual stupid useless (for those customers who use brain) rants.
Happy and ready to apologise if I am wrong about what I said.

If Planar admits that the original models are not as good as the current ones, would they perhaps be obligated to upgrade the original ones? That could be costly.
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post #45 of 766
2/24/09 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

If Planar admits that the original models are not as good as the current ones, would they perhaps be obligated to upgrade the original ones? That could be costly.

Yeah, maybe if they were asked nicely...they probably get a lot of repeat customers so it might be in their best long term financial interest to swap out old ones with the updated ones.

Sounds good if you say it real fast...
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post #46 of 766
2/24/09 at 7:37am
But why dont they just called the new ones 8150A or 8160 or whatever and treat the change as a switch in model, which I guess it is? (like the RS1u, RS1x etc.) Redesign of the lightpath and doubling the contrast isn't a mere firmware update and it can't easily be implemented to upgrade older projectors either.
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post #47 of 766
2/24/09 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

But why dont they just called the new ones 8150A or 8160 or whatever and treat the change as a switch in model, which I guess it is? (like the RS1u, RS1x etc.) Redesign of the lightpath and doubling the contrast isn't a mere firmware update and it can't easily be implemented to upgrade older projectors either.


Maybe it is an upgrade that can be done fairly easily in the factory? Maybe Planar's supplier of one of the internal light path components started providing a better spec. part. IMHO that does not justify releasing a new model just because some of the internal components were upgraded. (Possibly even out of Planar's control. Their supplier may simply have run out of the original part and started delivering a higher spec part... Or Planar found a better spec part at a lower price. Hardly worth releasing a new model just because components evolved naturally.)

It would be nice to get the facts though...
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post #48 of 766
2/24/09 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acta7 View Post

You can't consider that 11K:1 real on-off since iris can't be opened and closed at same time !
Planar 8150 real on-off is always 2.700:1

I don't agree with that, although it is partially semantics. It is much more complicated than that. Just consider scenes where the brightest things in the scene are 50%stim or lower. One is native and one is dynamic, which brings real benefits, but not all the benefits of native or static on/off CR. If the projector as a whole was stuck at 2700:1 on/off CR then images like those with nothing brighter than 50%stim (about 20% of the light power of 100%stim) would look the same whether the DI was on or off, but the Planar provides more intra-image CR for scenes like those (or at least a good portion of them) with the DI enabled. When a movie goes from bright to a blackout or a very dark scene, is the CR done there "real" or not "real"? I think using native (or static) and dynamic helps characterize it better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambiman View Post

Not true. Ansi is what you get from pixel to pixel. In one single frame you can the high on/off contrast. In dynamic iris not.

ANSI CR is the CR for a specific pattern (4x4 checkerboard, and actually 2 of them if done to the actual standard as defined), not pixel to pixel CR. Pixel to pixel CR is a much different thing than ANSI CR.

In the case of the Planar it isn't going to provide more than whatever the native CR is with the iris shut down in a single image, but it can provide more intra-image CR for lots of dark scenes than it would without a dynamic system. Dynamic gamma could be used all by itself, but I think that would be likely to bring some bad artifacts if it was aggressive at all. By providing a dynamic iris and a dynamic gamma somewhere in the projector they should be able to keep a 20%stim window on a black background at about the same level whether the iris is open or closed, but reduce the black around it for more intra-image CR there.

--Darin
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post #49 of 766
2/24/09 at 12:50pm
Does the Planar use dynamic gamma?

If it's implementation is similar to the Optoma 8200, it uses the combination of lamp modulation and iris reduction to achieve contrast benefits all the way up through 100%stim. With the 8200 it can significantly crush whites over about 70% though, but even at 100% stim it's capable of delivering intra-image contrast benefits of about 2x.
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post #50 of 766
2/24/09 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Does the Planar use dynamic gamma?

Depends on where you measure, but I am confident that it does use dynamic gamma to counter the dynamic iris (like 3/1 * 1/3 = 1). I think Greg Rogers mentioned that it doesn't, but I think he means as the light is going out of the projector. That is, the 1 above. But to get the light coming out of the projector to have all the same levels except for some crushing requires some on the fly changes to the levels internally (what I would call dynamic gamma).

I doubt you would like a DI system with no dynamic gamma. When the iris shut down 50% everything on the screen would get 50% dimmer and the intra-image CR wouldn't change (or at least not much and only then because of higher static on/off CR for projectors actually getting that). From what I know I would consider a projector with a dynamic iris and no compensation in the video signal to be a waste. In that case I probably wouldn't use the DI and so whatever number it achieved with the DI enabled would be pretty much meaningless as far as video quality.

--Darin
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post #51 of 766
2/24/09 at 1:01pm
Thread Starter 
Hey guys,

Just wanted to follow up on some stuff that is going on in this thread. When I reviewed the 8150 last year I got a unit before they even streeted. I was aware at that time that Planar was going to adjust the fixed iris in the lens before final production units started shipping which would give a small increase in contrast. I never had the chance to see that final unit.

The other gripe I had was the clipping issue which was resolved by a later firmware that is available to all owners and can be downloaded and installed right from home.

The other tweaks were done with the production models, so if you own a 8150, you already have the tweaks I'm talking about. I just never got to see them in a production model because we were given a pre-production model to try and get the review out as they hit shelves. So don't fret if you think you didn't get an "updated" unit as they are all updated compared to what I saw originally. Planar has been continually trying to refine the projector but this is the case with any manufacturer. They haven't done anything significant enough to call it a new model.

The unit I have on hand has an issue with its iris implementation that results in a very high measured contrast but we've found some issues. With some material there is a subtle flicker that is only noticeable with high APL scenes. So the iris calibration file may be wrong with my unit resulting in a higher mutliplier than typical with the 8150. I am going to look at a different one later this week that should be more in line with the ones you get from a dealer.

I was a huge fan of the 8150 when I reviewed it last year and seeing it again reaffirmed how great of a DLP it is. I was glad to see the issues I had with the PRE-PRODUCTION unit that I reviewed were resolved and just wanted to chime in for DLP fans that are looking for a solid contender to the great D-ILA products that JVC has been shipping.

I'm sorry if I caused a rift here but that was not my intention. I should have tried to follow up with Planar about the differences I was seeing to get some perspective on why and how this relates to the shipped units that went out nearly two months after the unit I reviewed.

As for comments here about upgrades in an existing model line, it happens all the time. A most recent example was Marantz and their lens coating on standard lenses that increased ANSI contrast significantly. They certainly weren't going to trade out units simply because of a refinement. I understand the frustration that it can cause but it is simple economics.
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post #52 of 766
2/24/09 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Does the Planar use dynamic gamma?

Yes, but fortunately it can be disabled. It produces a "pulsing" of brightness that can be very obvious in some movies/scenes. Upgrading the software did not help. I have to run with this feature disabled (and not so good black levels) because I can't tolerate this distracting pulsation.

It's a great projector, but fan noise is an issue. Today I would probably go with the JVC RS20 for this reason. I cannot imagine running my 8150 at full light power, because of the loud fan (I came from a JVC G15 with hushbox, so I know loud ). Ceiling-mounting made the noise much more obvious/annoying than when I had the projector sitting on a stack of cardboard boxes...
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post #53 of 766
2/24/09 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

Yes, but fortunately it can be disabled. It produces a "pulsing" of brightness that can be very obvious in some movies/scenes. Upgrading the software did not help. I have to run with this feature disabled (and not so good black levels) because I can't tolerate this distracting pulsation.

Are you talking about the auto contrast feature (I can't recall what it is called, but it is separate from DynamicBlack and isn't related to the iris)? If so, while that is a dynamic gamma kind of thing, I think it is different that what Mark meant to ask, which was whether their DI system includes dynamic gamma. If you were referring to the DI overall, then that can be disabled completely, but I don't know of any way to having the iris be dynamic, but not the video adjustments that go along with it. And I probably wouldn't want that either as the DI moving without adjustments to the video could cause distracting pulsation.

The Sharp 20k has an auto contrast feature even though it doesn't have a dynamic iris. I did some measurements and the auto contrast thing will increase a 20%stim window maybe 10% or so. After trying it out, I don't use it.

--Darin
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post #54 of 766
2/24/09 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Depends on where you measure, but I am confident that it does use dynamic gamma to counter the dynamic iris (like 3/1 * 1/3 = 1).

(3/1*1/3=1)? Do you mean in this example that white is boosted by 3x to make up for a 3x reduction in light loss due to the iris?

Quote:


I think Greg Rogers mentioned that it doesn't, but I think he means as the light is going out of the projector. That is, the 1 above. But to get the light coming out of the projector to have all the same levels except for some crushing requires some on the fly changes to the levels internally (what I would call dynamic gamma).

The folks at Optoma also told me that DB does not perform dynamic gamma and instead modulates the lamp intensity long with the iris reduction. I took some dynamic contrast measurements off it and found that it's capable of boosting even 100% white.

Quote:


I doubt you would like a DI system with no dynamic gamma. When the iris shut down 50% everything on the screen would get 50% dimmer and the intra-image CR wouldn't change (or at least not much and only then because of higher static on/off CR for projectors actually getting that). From what I know I would consider a projector with a dynamic iris and no compensation in the video signal to be a waste. In that case I probably wouldn't use the DI and so whatever number it achieved with the DI enabled would be pretty much meaningless as far as video quality.

A method to boost the white levels is definitely needed, but it looks like there are other ways to accomplish this than dynamic gamma alone.
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post #55 of 766
2/24/09 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

(3/1*1/3=1)? Do you mean in this example that white is boosted by 3x to make up for a 3x reduction in light loss due to the iris?

Yes. If the iris is considered last, then the light before the iris is boosted 3x so that light after the iris ends up at the same level (other than black and levels that get crushed).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

The folks at Optoma also told me that DB does not perform dynamic gamma and instead modulates the lamp intensity long with the iris reduction.

If they could just boost the lamp to totally make up for it then they wouldn't need the iris to move. Just close the iris down and boost the lamp for the whole movie, which would then have native on/off CR instead. The only real advantage to just using the lamp would be if native or static on/off CR went up as the iris was closed, but then they could just give that as an option instead (as long as they could handle the heat). I don't see any magic here. Boosting the lamp raises the black level as well as the white level. Boosting the gamma doesn't because you don't boost the level for video black (which is one of the fundamentals of good DI design IMO).

Maybe I'm not understanding what they are doing, but I get the impression that some people think that if they boost a lamp as an iris is closed they magically get all this range, but other than native/static on/off CR going up, I don't see it. Boosting a lamp just moves whatever range you have for the light path up (other than things like boosting it for red and not for other colors).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

A method to boost the white levels is definitely needed, but it looks like there are other ways to accomplish this than dynamic gamma alone.

The best methods shouldn't boost black at the same time IMO. At least not as much as they boost white. It would be interesting to see what happens with some things like a 20%stim window as the DI is turned on and off and same with a small 100%stim area on black.

BTW: I'm not saying lamp modulation can't be a useful part of a DI, but I don't see it as the thing that gets levels back up to counter the iris as all that useful unless it allows higher native/static on/off CR, like allowing the iris to close 5x with a system that only gives 4x dynamic CR total (or something like that).

--Darin
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post #56 of 766
2/24/09 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Are you talking about the auto contrast feature (I can't recall what it is called, but it is separate from DynamicBlack and isn't related to the iris)?

No. I have to disable DynamicBlack. If I enable DynamicBlack I see light (brighness) pulsing in certain movie scenes...

FWIW, I come from DLA but I have yet not seen a single rainbow in the 8150. However, the DynamicBlack is completely useless to me. If I turn it on, it will aggrevate me within 1-2 movies!

The effect is very dependent on the source material - I have gotten through select movies without being annoyed at all, but then in some movies the pulsation is so apparent that it almost makes me believe the projector is defective. Turning off DynamicBlack solves the problem.

I do have an early sample of the projector (March 2008), albeit with the latest firmware installed. Maybe my projector needs new hardware updates...?
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post #57 of 766
2/24/09 at 8:07pm
Thread Starter 
Interesting Peter. The 8150 has one of the most transparent irises I've seen and during my time with it I only noticed it in hard transitions and even then I had to look for it. Sorry to hear you haven't had the same experience!
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post #58 of 766
2/24/09 at 8:20pm
Putting those last 2 posts together you would almost wonder if something is maladjusted or wrong with the projector....
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post #59 of 766
2/25/09 at 6:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I've seen and during my time with it I only noticed it in hard transitions

That's interesting! I'm noticing the problems in scenes with a certain lightning. No hard transitions, no quick action. Just certain lightning/colors and the pulsation is obvious. I don't think I've ever seen it occur in very bright scenes. It's usually medium-bright scenes that bring out the problem. Also, I never noticed any particular problems in hard dark/light transitions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear View Post

Putting those last 2 posts together you would almost wonder if something is maladjusted or wrong with the projector....

I agree... looks like there might be something wrong with the control of the dynamic iris in my unit. It looks like a typical regulator problem where oscillation occurs.
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post #60 of 766
2/25/09 at 12:24pm
"Ansi is what you get from pixel to pixel. In one single frame you can the high on/off contrast. In dynamic iris not."

On/off CR may be approached in a single frame with one white pixel in a corner and the rest black, but I suspect that in the vast majority of dark scenes the number of illuminated pixels would create enough scatter to greatly reduce the intrascene CR.

Darin, didn't you do some experiments to this effect?
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