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Planar 8150 follow up impressions - Page 21

post #601 of 766
12/23/09 at 4:56pm
i know it has been stated many times before that the only difference between the 8150 and 8130 is contrast (and horizontal lens shift), but im wondering if the differences would really be visible to the eye in a light controlled room.
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post #602 of 766
12/23/09 at 5:03pm
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Exact same projector and same list price. Different model/mfg stickers....

I sure hope it is. My dealer ordered me the Runco LS-5. Does anyone have this model in their theater?
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post #603 of 766
12/23/09 at 5:10pm
yes, that is the correct model number. the 8130 is the ls-3.
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post #604 of 766
12/23/09 at 7:35pm
Ok, I watched "13 Going On 30" tonight...not exactly my cup of tea, but for you guys I decided to take one for the team...

First of all, the equipment used:

Planar 8150
ISCO III lens
132" wide 2.35:1 High Power screen (though the movie was shot in ~16:9 format, so I didn't use the entire width)
Onkyo PR-866 pre/pro (I only mention it because it was in the video chain)
Oppo BDP 83 Blu-ray player
Blu-ray version of "13 Going On 30"

This was not my idea of fun! I spent the entire time with my family just looking for problems...any kind of problems. I looked for changing black level, brightness compression, flashing screen...ANYTHING that would degrade picture quality. After all of that, I am happy to report that I could not find ANY problem whatsoever with the DI...nothing....nada....not the slightest hint that it was even working. It performed so well that I just had to to turn the DI off just to make sure that it was working....it was....

I even went back to the particular scene where Peter had the problem and played it over about a half dozen times....once again...NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER.

I don't know what else to tell you. Watching movies this way sucks! I never relaxed and just watched the film because I was too busy looking for artifacts that never showed up. I just hope that I can now forget all of this and start enjoying my projector again. I want to watch movies, not look for problems...
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post #605 of 766
12/24/09 at 6:31am
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I even went back to the particular scene where Peter had the problem and played it over about a half dozen times....once again...NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER.

I'm not the least surprised: You used the Blu-ray version. It just proves my theory that the problem is less likely to occur with Blu-ray

To repeat my finding, you MUST use the DVD version of the movie. (Sorry, I thought I made this clear earlier on).

FWIW: Planar says that the condtion for the artifacts to occur is a large area of unform color. This condition is much less likely to occur on Blu-ray thanks to the higher resolution and better color depth this media offers. Consequently the same movies that trigger the DI problem when played back in DVD format may play back completely artifact free in Blu-ray...

So, yes, if you're using Blu-ray the DI artifacts indeed may be non-existent. However, for someone like me with 3 blurays and 1000+ DVDs in the collection, it's very hard to talk about bluray performance since that's not what I normally watch...
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post #606 of 766
12/24/09 at 6:45am
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Ok, I watched "13 Going On 30" tonight...not exactly my cup of tea, but for you guys I decided to take one for the team...

First of all, the equipment used:

Planar 8150
ISCO III lens
132" wide 2.35:1 High Power screen (though the movie was shot in ~16:9 format, so I didn't use the entire width)
Onkyo PR-866 pre/pro (I only mention it because it was in the video chain)
Oppo BDP 83 Blu-ray player
Blu-ray version of "13 Going On 30"

This was not my idea of fun! I spent the entire time with my family just looking for problems...any kind of problems. I looked for changing black level, brightness compression, flashing screen...ANYTHING that would degrade picture quality. After all of that, I am happy to report that I could not find ANY problem whatsoever with the DI...nothing....nada....not the slightest hint that it was even working. It performed so well that I just had to to turn the DI off just to make sure that it was working....it was....

I even went back to the particular scene where Peter had the problem and played it over about a half dozen times....once again...NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER.

I don't know what else to tell you. Watching movies this way sucks! I never relaxed and just watched the film because I was too busy looking for artifacts that never showed up. I just hope that I can now forget all of this and start enjoying my projector again. I want to watch movies, not look for problems...

Ouuch!! Man, are you saying you were able to make it through this movie without any chemically induced assistance? (Alcohol, Zoloft, pain killers, etc..). This is indeed torture...same level as water boarding for sure. We owe you a big one!!!!
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post #607 of 766
12/24/09 at 7:32am
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To repeat my finding, you MUST use the DVD version of the movie. (Sorry, I thought I made this clear earlier on).

Ok, I will rent the DVD version, but I really don't expect it to make a difference.
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FWIW: Planar says that the condtion for the artifacts to occur is a large area of unform color. This condition is much less likely to occur on Blu-ray thanks to the higher resolution and better color depth this media offers.

Sorry, but I don't buy your theory. The gray background in the "killer scene" was both large and extremely uniform, just with higher resolution. I have a hard time believing that the difference between the DVD version and the Blu-ray version will be enough to trip up the DI, but we shall see. I think I am chasing ghosts at this point, but I will see this through to the end.
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However, for someone like me with 3 blurays and 1000+ DVDs in the collection, it's very hard to talk about bluray performance since that's not what I normally watch...

I own over 1500 DVDs, and you know how many of them I now watch...ZERO. I am not replacing my entire collection with Blu-ray discs...just the ones I really like. I just *rent* Blu-rays continuously from Netflix. At the size screen that I have, DVDs are just totally uninteresting and not something that I want to watch. At this point in the video evolutionary path, I would never shell out for a Planar 8150 just to watch DVDs. I would recommend buying a Panasonic 4000 or Epson 8500 if that is your main interest.
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post #608 of 766
12/24/09 at 7:39am
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Ouuch!! Man, are you saying you were able to make it through this movie without any chemically induced assistance? (Alcohol, Zoloft, pain killers, etc..). This is indeed torture...same level as water boarding for sure. We owe you a big one!!!!

Yes, it was horrible! I had my wife tie me to the recliner and pin my eyelids open....you know, sort of like in "A Clockwork Orange"....oh, the horror!
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post #609 of 766
12/24/09 at 7:43am
ha, well seeing that you have to watch it again now, i want to pass on my sympathies with you. enjoy!!!
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post #610 of 766
12/24/09 at 8:40am
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

As near as I can tell from all available data, lens that have irises inside them will lose MTF as the iris is stopped down. I know my Samsung does and I suspect the Planar will as well. Obviously, since a DI closes down the iris part of the time, I and others will shortly experiment with ND filters to determine there effect on MTF and on ANSI.f

The Planar's 'Dynamic black' Iris is not in the lens, it is in the light path between the color wheel and the imaging chip.
LL
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post #611 of 766
12/25/09 at 8:26pm
Just another Data point on the image issues. Was watching Battle Star Galactica - The Plan on bluray and found a scene where the image was pumping. So I did some experimenting and it turns out the pumping was a function of the Adaptive Contrast being turned on. If I turned it off the image was stable. Any insights on this problem? As I understand the function of Adaptive contrast is that it calculates mean luminance and adjusts contrast.

Maybe I should have know better to leave this feature off as I've done some more reading on the subject in reviews for other projectors. But It really made the blacks black.
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post #612 of 766
12/27/09 at 6:53am
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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Sorry, but I don't buy your theory. The gray background in the "killer scene" was both large and extremely uniform, just with higher resolution. I have a hard time believing that the difference between the DVD version and the Blu-ray version will be enough to trip up the DI.

What seems uniform to the human eye may not necessarily be uniform data. The more resolution the data has, the harder it is to conclude if it's uniform or not. It's possible that the DI logic will not show the same problems on the Blu-ray version

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I own over 1500 DVDs, and you know how many of them I now watch...ZERO. I am not replacing my entire collection with Blu-ray discs...just the ones I really like. I just *rent* Blu-rays continuously from Netflix. At the size screen that I have, DVDs are just totally uninteresting and not something that I want to watch. At this point in the video evolutionary path, I would never shell out for a Planar 8150 just to watch DVDs. I would recommend buying a Panasonic 4000 or Epson 8500 if that is your main interest.

Well, I did spend close to $10k on an Schneider Anamorphic lens setup, so downgrading to the Panasonic 4000 sure makes sense

I probably should upgrade to a Digital Projection Titan HD-250, but after spending $12k on a JVC G15 ten years ago, I did not want to spend that much on a unit that I probably will want to replace within the next 5 years anyway (LED technology sure looks promising)
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post #613 of 766
12/27/09 at 12:22pm
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What seems uniform to the human eye may not necessarily be uniform data. The more resolution the data has, the harder it is to conclude if it's uniform or not. It's possible that the DI logic will not show the same problems on the Blu-ray version

Yup, I understand all of that just fine, and it is with that in mind that I feel the extra data in the Blu-ray version would just serve to confuse the DI, while the "watered down" version on the DVD would be much easier to deal with. But we shall see next week when I get the DVD version from Netflix.
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Well, I did spend close to $10k on an Schneider Anamorphic lens setup, so downgrading to the Panasonic 4000 sure makes sense

Ok, gotcha....I have an ISCO III anamorphic lens as well, so I understand why you would want a comparable projector. What I don't understand is why you are still watching DVDs, regardless of how much money you spent on the collection... The better my playback equipment, the better my sources need to be to appreciate the quality of my system. I am sorry that I (and you) spent countless dollars buying DVDs just to shelve them in favor of Blu-ray, but since I want to experience my home theater at its best, I prefer to watch the finest source material I can get my hands on...call me crazy!
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I probably should upgrade to a Digital Projection Titan HD-250, but after spending $12k on a JVC G15 ten years ago, I did not want to spend that much on a unit that I probably will want to replace within the next 5 years anyway (LED technology sure looks promising)

Yup, a reasonably priced next gen LED machine might find its way into my HT if the performance is there, but the 8150 is good enough to last me until my next upgrade.

And I am not familiar with the performance of the Titan HD-250....what does it bring to the table that is missing from the 8150? It is 720p...4000:1 CR....but with lots of lumens. What makes it so special to you?
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post #614 of 766
12/27/09 at 12:27pm
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Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Just another Data point on the image issues. Was watching Battle Star Galactica - The Plan on bluray and found a scene where the image was pumping. So I did some experimenting and it turns out the pumping was a function of the Adaptive Contrast being turned on. If I turned it off the image was stable. Any insights on this problem? As I understand the function of Adaptive contrast is that it calculates mean luminance and adjusts contrast.

Maybe I should have know better to leave this feature off as I've done some more reading on the subject in reviews for other projectors. But It really made the blacks black.

Hmmm... makes one wonder if funlvr1965 and Peter Nielsen had the Adaptive Contrast turned on and was the cause of the dimming/brightening they saw.
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post #615 of 766
12/27/09 at 12:34pm
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Hmmm... makes one wonder if funlvr1965 and Peter Nielsen had the Adaptive Contrast turned on and was the cause of the dimming/brightening they saw.

I tried AC and didn't like it at all, so it has been turned off since the second day I owned my 8150....just another data point.
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post #616 of 766
12/27/09 at 12:37pm
What didn't you like about it?

Does it crush blacks and blow out the whites?
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post #617 of 766
12/27/09 at 12:43pm
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What didn't you like about it?

Does it crush blacks and blow out the whites?

To be honest with you, I don't remember exactly, as it was quite a long time ago that I tried it. All I remember was that it created some strange artifacts, so I turned it off and never looked back.

I'll give it another go tonight and let you know what I see...
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post #618 of 766
12/27/09 at 12:57pm
Thanks, Bob.

The 8150 I have on order from AVS is supposed to ship out tomorrow but I may cancel the order. If the Runco LS5 is the same $$$$, I think I'd be better off with a Runco branded pj when it comes time to sell it in a couple of years. Granted, I'll still be taking a bath on the resale but less so due to the Runco name.
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post #619 of 766
12/28/09 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Yup, I understand all of that just fine, and it is with that in mind that I feel the extra data in the Blu-ray version would just serve to confuse the DI, while the "watered down" version on the DVD would be much easier to deal with. But we shall see next week when I get the DVD version from Netflix.

You're absolutely right in your thinking. In this case I believe confusing the DI is a good thing. It's the uniform (="watered down") background that is causing the flicker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Ok, gotcha....I have an ISCO III anamorphic lens as well, so I understand why you would want a comparable projector. What I don't understand is why you are still watching DVDs, regardless of how much money you spent on the collection...

Anything new I buy is Blu-Ray (if available). However, I still have a lot of DVDs that I haven't watched.

I wonder how long it takes until we see a BluRay version of Babylon 5 that is worth paying for...

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Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

but since I want to experience my home theater at its best, I prefer to watch the finest source material I can get my hands on...call me crazy!

I agree, but hardly everything is available on BluRay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Yup, a reasonably priced next gen LED machine might find its way into my HT if the performance is there, but the 8150 is good enough to last me until my next upgrade.

I feel the same. Even without using the DI it's an excellent projector! (I know I should just keep the DI turned off, and I would be totally happy and not whine about it What's bugging me is that I'm still not convinced if what I see is 100% normal or not, or if there's still something wrong with my unit...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

And I am not familiar with the performance of the Titan HD-250....what does it bring to the table that is missing from the 8150? It is 720p...4000:1 CR....but with lots of lumens. What makes it so special to you?

Correct. Lots of lumens would be the advantage. Cleary not worth the additional cost since we will probably see very bright LED projectors within the next few years...

Peter
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post #620 of 766
12/28/09 at 7:48am
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Originally Posted by smithfarmer View Post

Hmmm... makes one wonder if funlvr1965 and Peter Nielsen had the Adaptive Contrast turned on and was the cause of the dimming/brightening they saw.

Nope. AC off. The guys at Planar don't recommend using it. I asked them why it's there, and their answer was "Some people like it". However, for correct image reproduction it should be disabled...

I should point out that I have sent the video clip to Planar. They have seen it, and they say it "looks normal". I have no problem accepting that, assuming that the same source material causes the same issue on other units too...
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post #621 of 766
12/28/09 at 8:19am
I spoke with Jason earlier this morning and inquired about switching my order to the LS5. He said even though MSRP on the 8150 and LS5 are the same, it would cost more due to the higher margin required by Runco.

I decided to go ahead with the 8150. Hopefully, it'll be here by Thursday and I'll be able to post my impressions over the weekend.

I'll get that "13 Going On 30" DVD from Blockbuster if anyone cares to send me a couple of tabs of Zoloft.
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post #622 of 766
12/29/09 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithfarmer View Post

Hmmm... makes one wonder if funlvr1965 and Peter Nielsen had the Adaptive Contrast turned on and was the cause of the dimming/brightening they saw.

Nope...AC was turned off, it apppears to provide better blacks but in fact it crushes the blacks as has been observed by others.
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post #623 of 766
12/29/09 at 7:49am
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Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

I should point out that I have sent the video clip to Planar. They have seen it, and they say it "looks normal". I have no problem accepting that, assuming that the same source material causes the same issue on other units too...

Peter I also sent in a video clip to the planar techs, they also thought it was normal, but they sent me a replacement anyway since after talking to me they realized I was not novice at this. As I said before the replacment showed the same artifacts. Not sure why we have such a division of experiences except to say that maybe after some of the complaints started rolling in about the DI artifacts they went back and made some adjustments.
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post #624 of 766
12/29/09 at 8:16am
funlvr1965,

How long ago did you purchase your 8150? I think Bob bought his pretty early in the production run. Mine is likely to be one of the last Planar branded pj's. Jason received them in mid-Dec but I delayed the shipping until just after Christmas.

I'm definitely curious about this artifact and whether or not it will bother me. If it's a rare as most here have said, I think I'll be fine with it.
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post #625 of 766
12/29/09 at 9:02am
The Adaptive Contrast is provided by and is in the Gennum chip. Just like all the noise reduction functions. The Gennum chip allows many steps of strength for the adaptive contrast function. The Lumagen Radiance which also uses the Gennum chip for deinterlacing and noise reduction and some other functions provides the user to select what step of Adaptive Contrast to use should te user elect to use aAaptive Contrast and provides a before and after (center portion of the image) to allow the user tojudge its effects. Planar chose not to allow the user to select a step strength defaulting to what I think is about step3 on the Lumagen. When i watch sports,I generally have Adaptive Contrast set to step one on the Lumagen (when I had the 8150 I shut it off on the 8150 and used it at step one on the Radiance). Tome stepone brightens the picture giving the sense that say a basketball wood floor has been washed. Tome it makes a brightly lit sports field or area look a little more realistic.Setting it higher on the Radiance makes things less realistic. Not very scientific but that is what I have found.
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post #626 of 766
12/29/09 at 9:24am
Here is a description of Dynamic Black from Bob Williams:
"Here is a summary of the DynamicBlack process in the PD8150 and PD8130.

When turned on, full field contrast levels are boosted approximately 3x. To do this, 3 steps occur for every frame of content:

1. The image is analyzed for brightness content
2. If the image does not use the full range of brightness, the range will be expanded to fit the range of the DMD. This is similar to an auto leveling function of photo editors like Photoshop.
3. An aperture is closed to one of more than 200 possible positions so that the peak brightness matches the original (pre-expanded) image. This means that even though light is being blocked by the aperture, the apparent brightness of the image does not appear to change."
As described Dynamic Black is really a combinantion of Dynamic Black and Dynamic Iris.
In my unit it does exactly as described by Bon Williams.
When I'm adjusting bright level in my unit it doesn't matter to me if I can't see level 18 IRE because I'm adjusting with the Dynamic Black off then when I turn it on I will see level 18 IRE. I don't use adaptive contras nor Brilliant color, they both produce a extrange artifact.

Federico
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post #627 of 766
12/29/09 at 10:59am
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Originally Posted by smithfarmer View Post

How long ago did you purchase your 8150? I think Bob bought his pretty early in the production run. Mine is likely to be one of the last Planar branded pj's. Jason received them in mid-Dec but I delayed the shipping until just after Christmas.

FWIW, I purchased Jasons PD8150 review unit. Strangely enough, Jason had not even noticed the iris was defective! If I recall correctly, I got it in May or June 2008.

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Originally Posted by smithfarmer View Post

I'm definitely curious about this artifact and whether or not it will bother me. If it's a rare as most here have said, I think I'll be fine with it.

You can always turn off DynamicBlack. That solves the problem completely
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post #628 of 766
12/29/09 at 11:27am
It is not surprising it wasn`t noticed because during calibrations and before and after measuring DIs or DBs as well as adaptive contrasts etc are supposed to be turned of.
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post #629 of 766
12/29/09 at 6:28pm
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Originally Posted by Peter Nielsen View Post

FWIW, I purchased Jasons PD8150 review unit. Strangely enough, Jason had not even noticed the iris was defective! If I recall correctly, I got it in May or June 2008.

Yours is definitely one of the earlier units produced. I can't remember if you posted it but is your firmware current?


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You can always turn off DynamicBlack. That solves the problem completely

Turning Dynamic Black off defeats one of my main reasons for getting the 8150. Honestly, if I had to do that, I'd rather get a Marantz 15S1.
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post #630 of 766
12/29/09 at 7:39pm
Tonight I watched the Blu-ray version of Gamer and as an experiment I turned on Brilliant Color and Adaptive Contrast, both of which I normally leave turned off. Even though the blacks and whites were a bit crushed, I thought the overall PQ was outstanding! I compared the same scenes with AC turned off and I found that the blacks and whites are a bit crushed in the encoding, but there was a definite little bit of extra crushing taking place with AC turned on. The difference was very small and all in all with this particular film I preferred having all 3 (DB, BC, and AC) turned on.

This film really is a gauntlet for projectors, though, as it has lots of very dark scenes, lots of very dark scenes with bright elements, lots of extremely bright scenes, lots of very colorful scenes, and lots of fast transitions from very dark to very bright and vice versa. I really expected that the DI would have a hard time and would show some sort of defect here, but to my pleasant surprise it handled this film effortlessly and without any noticeable pumping, brightness compression, "flashing" or any other artifact that I could imagine. It looked simply superb!...

Tomorrow I should have the DVD version of 13 Going On 30 here and I will be sure to test out the killer scene thoroughly.
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