TVGOS ( TV Guide On Screen ) Devices - Page 11

My pleasure yes i have link i well share soon

yes, what is sometimes called bootstrapping...

hi bwall23.. sorry for delay here... i get confused with all the threads going on... yes, in vegas, PBS OTA analog is active... i don't know if tvgos is active on that OTA channel, though, as i've not attempted to grab it OTA...
the PBS analog feed through COX is also on COX analog channel 10, and its digital counterpart is virtual channel 10.1.. COX feeds the RF for this channel on some other RF channel ( not the same as its OTA counterpart )...

currently ( this seems to change from time to time ), tvgos is being grabbed from the COX analog channel 10 PBS feed..

hi bwall23... in my mits, the display of 1:4-0 indicates 2nd RF input, tuned to 4-0 ( this represents an analog RF channel ( the -0 )) if it were 1:4-1, this would indicate 2nd RF input, tuned to digital virtual channel 4.1 ...

on the zipcode part, i'm always using my standard real zip code and not an alternate ( dtvpal gooney code ) ... this is true for the mits tv.... however, i'm experimenting back and forth between real and gooney zips in the panasonic dmr-e95... the mits always seems to find tvgos without issue on its own, since it is a newer device in terms of TVGOS rev, and is ATSC equipped and all that... a recent system reset has proven to blow out the wierd stuff and replace it with ' corrected ' VBI and host channels ' ... but during the time that the wierd indications were displayed, the tv seemed to always pick up the listing info from the COX feed, even though the host channel displayed was the 1:4-0 ... it almost seems as if a previous test configuration left these numbers in place, while the mits actually grabbed the data from the COX feed on 0:8-1 ( 1st RF input = COX, 8-1 = CBS digital feed )...

in any case, my purpose is to get the pal to feed the panasonic via a pal rf feed mixed into the cable feed ( channel 4 insertion box front-ended with a channel 4 notch filter to kill the cox feed on that rf channel )... my current testing has the pal listening to OTA and feeding the panasonic exclusively on channel 4 with no cox mixed in... this is to guarantee that the panny sees ONLY the pal... the only success i've had so far is to get a host and partial lineup in ' cable box ' mode ( panasonic config )... after this test, i've now re-configured the panasonic for NO cable box, in hope that a host and lineup will still be located, with the panasonic tuner being used instead of the pal tuner...

I have the Pany E95 DVR, too. After 1-2 months of not receiving any TVGOS data, it started receiving, again. All I did before this was go through the std. setup and then let it be. (I just programmed in the times of the shows I wanted to record. Left me with untitled records, but I managed. Disappointing, but manageable.

I realized that I may have begun receiving TVGOS data when my entering just 2 digits to change channels did not immediately change channels. When I called up the TVGOS, it prompted me to select my specific channel lineup. It has been merrily downloading data since last Thursday night, Friday morning.

I am assuming that for my area--the far east side of Columbus, OH on WOW (Wide Open West)--the local CBS affiliate, WBNS Ch 10, began xmitting a complimentary analog signal to go along with the digital one I am assuming they have been sending out since the new contracts went into force. I do not have anything like the TVPal box. My cable runs straight into my DVR.

I wonder if your area may soon be getting the analog signal, too. What I cannot tell you is if it is strictly cable or if it is also available OTA. I guess it couldn't hurt to just try the std. setup and see what happens. Good luck.

hi wildcatray...

normally, my v7 E95 IS connected to COX cable in las vegas... and tvgos DOES work... COX is currently still inserting ( somehow ) the TVGOS data into their analog channel 10 feed ( analog PBS, also their OTA analog channel )... i'm testing with dtvpal in anticipation of COX discontinuing this analog tvgos feed... i'm hoping to be successful by feeding PAL based tvgos ( mixed in with the cable feed using a combination of notch filter and insertion box )...

my tvgos enabled television is a V9 mits that's fully digital capable, so no trouble with that...

so far, i've had little success with the PAL using various configurations... most of the time i get as far as obtaining a host id and host channel, but never get a lineup or listings grid...

the only time i've had success all the way to a listing grid is by using the pal as it was intended, with the E95 set to cable yes, box yes...

but even then, i never got more than the few local OTA network channels on the grid... and the one time io got those, i manually updated the lineup using the channel editor and, lo and behold, the next time i looked, the channels i had added had been removed... so i'm still messing with it to get the right combination to work... i'm almost convinced that i'm chasing my tail due to ' incomplete ' functionality on the part of the OTA digital feed, ie, they're just not quite ready with the whole ball of wax yet...

rg

If your TV's host channel is set to the DTVPAL channel, it may take up to 3 days for it to give up on it, and look for another host channel. You can try changing the zip code on your TV, and then changing it back to what it was, and see if that clears the host channel (it does on the Sony DHG). Then it will start searching for a new host immediately.

Mark

Yay! My TVGOS is working again on my Toshiba 50HMX96. I'm in Chicago and my host channel says 0-11. The software versions haven't changed either. Not quite sure why it stopped working since I've been living out of state since the beginning of the year.

I'm in Chicago, too - they've been turning the analog data stream on and off here for over a couple of months now. They've also been going back and forth with broadcasting the v8/v9 guide between channels 11 and 2 for over a year - moreso lately.

Rammitinski,

Could you explain what you mean by v8/v9 guide? Do you mean the v8, and v9 data are one, or that they are separate streams? I'm hoping they are separate streams, since I have both a v7 (panasonic DMR-E95H), and v8 (Sony DHG-HDD250) device, and both of them lost listings on the same day (5/13), and it hasn't returned. When I contacted my CBS station about this they said everything was working fine, and the television they have with TVGOS on it has full listings.

I'm planning to contact the station again tomorrow, and suggest that the reason their TV is working and my DVRs aren't is because the V9 data (which I assume their TV is receiving) is a separate data stream than the V7/v8 stream. Because of the limited information, this is a guess on my part, but I have to get them to try something. Both DVRs worked great (one from cable, and the other OTA), until 5/13, then no more guide (No Listing) on both units.

Mark

v8 and v9 use the same set of data. v7 uses a different set of data. In many areas, the two sets are or were carried by different host channels.

Can you direct me to where I can read about the different data streams? I have the PDF that describes the new digital data (which is actually what is being used here). Nowhere in that document do they mention TVGOS versions. Also, I should probably clarify that the v7 DVR was actually receiving the SCTE-127 data stream. I can't believe that both of my DVRs on two separate sources (cable (digital converted to analog CBS), and OTA (digital CBS)) stopped receiving data on the same day, but it isn't a problem with the CBS (or macrovision) feed.

I'll probably have to try to get them to fix the (apparently) broken SCTE-127 data, and hope that my V8 device gets fixed also.

Mark

? not sure exactly what you mean by this...maybe only the that the normal digital data stream is different from the SCTE127 stream and both are different from the analog data stream...but for 4 years, both units - one v7 and the other v8 - got their data from analog PBS 9 AND with the same download schedules, and right now that's STILL where my Sony is getting its data.

Some of us have speculated about what the structure of the TVGOS broadcasts is, but no one has ever learned anything specific. If YOU have, I (and I think others) would like to know what you've learned about the data structure!!

(We DO know that the "normal" digital stream is separate from the SCTE127 digital stream, but as far as I know v8 is in BOTH streams, which is why the DTVPal appears useful for, not only v7 units, but also v8...at least that is what some have reported...and, as I mentioned, v8 is also in the ANALOG data stream)

Thanks - Tony

bozobutts, jtbell and myself are all referring to the legacy analog data.

Here I've always gotten v7 and v8/v9 from different stations.

v7 is different from v8 & v9, which are exactly the same.

avnstf,
This was my thinking too, but I thought I probably missed the discussion of these data streams.


So, are you saying that there is no such thing as v9 data? If v8 and v9 are "exactly the same", then why send the same data twice?

If this is correct, then I'm going back to my first thought that I had when the station told me that they had a TV with TVGOS, and the guide was all filled in. My first thought was that they were looking at a PSIP guide and not TVGOS. I'm going to call them today, and see if I can't get them to reset something.

Mark

Success!!

I called my local CBS station back yesterday, and just told the guy that I think there is more than one data stream, and that there may be something wrong with one or more of them. I asked if he would look into it for me, and he told me that he would. Tonight I got home from work, checked both my v7 and v8 DVRs, and guide data has started trickling in again on both of them.

Mark

Ramm...I still can't figure out exactly what you mean here...by legacy analog data, do you mean just analog data OR the SCTE127 stream, a digital stream that the Pal can convert to an analog form?

Here, PBS 9 still broadcasts v8 data for my Sony, and - according to my 3410a - it also has v7 A and B packets (although my 3410a seems to prefer CBS 5 now)...but before the failed transition, it is CERTAINLY the case that 9 broadcast both v7 and v8 data. Some of us think this would have all been one stream, but that v7 and v8 units picked out the data they needed, e.g., the 3410a picked out A and B packets.

So does someone in this thread know - based on some evidence - that v8 and v9 data are identical? Or do they just mean they are part of the same digital data stream? i.e., in the sense that v7 and v8 analog data HAVE been part of the same data stream (and probably still ARE in the SCTE127 stream)...

Tony

I'll bite


These guys are in the Chicago area, and seem to be getting data from an analog host (or two), which is what I believe he meant by legacy analog data (not digital, or SCTE-127).


I now believe this is how it works. I think v9 data is also in the same stream, but different from v8 data.


I don't believe anyone knows for sure, or they would have jumped in here already.

Mark

...I believe you're right on all counts...

v8 gets the same, exact data as v9, right down to the channels listed in the channel editor (and whatever changes they make always apply to both), and as far as I know, the same stream is used by both versions. Even when that stream has ever changed host channels around here, it has always worked with both versions (at least it's always been that way here - if each version of the guide uses different channels in other markets, I guess that would throw a kink into the whole belief system then - but as far as I can recall, everyone that I know of has always said they receive v8 & v9 from the same channel).

v7 has always used a different host channel - here and elsewhere, as far as I know. v7 doesn't give you as many channels, because the firmware only has a smaller, finite number of slots for channels.

In order for them to add any new channels to the v7 guide, they'd have to eliminate just as many. This is why you don't often see as many subchannels from your market, or channels from nearby markets listed, as you would in v8/v9.

I don't know what the number is that v8/v9 can hold, but they just keep adding them all the time. They've added hundreds in the last few years - even stations from over well over 100 miles away - which is weird, because no one can actually even receive them (not the digitals, anyway).

And yes, I'm just talking about the old, legacy, purely analog data - which is, of course, the only type that can be received directly through an analog tuner, and which is what the original poster was referring to. I'm not talking at all about any type of digital stream - "SCTE-127" or otherwise.

Nobody ever "discusses" them here because you guys are mainly fixated on the digital one, and getting the Pal to convert it (or for the Sony DVR's to receive it on their own).

If you search some older threads and the archives here there is lots of information on them, as they were in use for years before all this D/A conversion rigamaroll in more recent times (it was originally called "Guide Plus" in it's earlier US incarnations).

Check the threads and archives in the "DVD Recorders" sub-forum in particular. I think there's a TVGOS thread in the "Rear Projection TV" sub-forum somewhere, too. Also, if you just Google "TV Guide on Screen" or "TVGOS, or even "Guide Plus", you'll probably come up with all kinds of information on the net about it - most likely technical, too, if that's what you're really looking for.

Really, the main reason nobody ever brings any of that trivial stuff up in threads like this is because it doesn't apply to what's going on now (and I really don't think any of the "TVGOS history of how it works in analog" is going to help you much with the current issues anyway).

They're not "sending it twice" - both (v8 & v9) version's firmware is designed to use the same data stream. The "versions" just refer to the guide itself (there are differences in the guide and the features/performance) - not which data stream they use.

v7 and v8 were probably never part of the same data stream in the analog realm, because they've always used different host channels here and elsewhere - so how could they be? I think there were always some differences in the programming info, too (I have devices with all the versions, so you'd think I'd know for sure, but I really haven't used the v7 ones in awhile - like I said, they don't carry all of the local subchannels like v8/v9 does).

With digital, as far as I know (you, too, I believe), there is only one stream (to be used for the newer, digital-ready TVGOS devices), and supposedly this "SCTE-127" one coming for the Pal or Artec to convert for the legacy analog devices.

As far as the Pal DVR, I would assume it uses the standard, digital TVGOS stream - but who knows with all this goofy stuff that's going on? That thing is so inconsistent in everything it does that it's hard to make heads or tails out of anything. I suppose if I owned one I might know better, but there's no way in heck I'd ever buy one at this point. I recently bought a TiVoHD with lifetime, so I'm covered. No worries for me now - I can just take all this TVGOS stuff as it comes.

Well, if you didn't know differently before, Ramm, you do now, because I'm sorry to point out that what you say - while it may be true in your area - is simply NOT TRUE in the San Francisco market.

For YEARS, both of my units - one v8 and one v7 - got their data from PBS 9. Presently, as noted below, they are getting data from 2 different stations (NEITHER of which has digital data, because they are analog stations!), but this NEVER occurred before last Thanksgiving, and it didn't become the regular state for my units until about 6 weeks ago. Furthermore, when I check PBS 9 with my 3410a, it STILL shows the A and B packets used by v7 at comparable rates to those from CBS 5....so 9 is STILL broadcasting both v7 and v8, as has always been the case as far as I can tell (which is to say, for the last 3 years, since that is when I got my Sony).

I don't see how I can make it clearer, and if you didn't notice this in my posts over the last year (the period when I have been most active on these threads), I can't blame you. But it's not because I didn't refer to the fact, in numerous posts over that period on the Sony 250 and 3410a threads, that each of these units was getting data from PBS 9.

This doesn't mean of course that they are getting (or selecting) the SAME data, because they are not...for example, my 3410a is seeing or getting A and B packets from both analog stations, while the Sony gets - I believe - B and C packets from them (I actually haven't checked them recently, but that's what I remember)...and - when I tune the unit to 5.1 (which broadcasts digital TVGOS) - the ATSC slicer screen lists C packets (but doesn't mention B, which I don't understand, but I don't pretend to understand much about the digital data...and I know NOTHING about the v9 data).

As for your mention of different channel lineups for v7 and v8, of course that is true, but that doesn't mean they can't get the different lineups from the same station...different packet types, remember? Or, remember that - aside from the 180 minute program info download (from which my units, as I said, pick up different packet types) - there are also 50 minute and 60 minute downloads, and if one of these has enough total capacity for the very lengthy v8 lineups, they can as easily include the short v7 lineups.

I don't understand what the problem would be. But in any case, you are simply not correct in claiming that v7 and v8 cannot be broadcast from the same analog station...sorry - Tony

PS As for the question of how these different types of data are structured in the broadcasts, I personally raised it at some length (positing different possibilities) quite a while ago in the Sony thread, but got no response, which led me to think that there really wasn't any specific info out there. And, when this issue came up in either this thread or the DTVPal thread, someone else remarked that it would be really inefficient to have these different data types be in independent, separate data structures, with which I said I tended to agree. (What led to THIS question was, in part how the SCTE127 data would be structured, and I guess the answer is that it IS the same structure as the present analog broadcasts - because, when I have used my units to check at various download time - as far as I can tell, I am getting data at comparable rates from PBS 9, CBS 5, AND DTVPal 3 - except that I haven't checked channel 3 on my Sony since the Pal started putting out A and B packets, so I can't claim IT is putting out C packets as well...)

enough, I guess

No biggie. I didn't know that for sure (about 7 & 8 being on the same channel in some markets). I'm not surprised. Makes sense that in some areas, they might not have enough stations willing to participate. Just the way it works here.

Also, you use the word "packets", and I was misappropriately using the term "streams". You're way is correct - I'm no techie, as you can tell.

Question is - have you ever heard of anyone getting v8 & v9 from different stations? I haven't, and that was the main thing I was talking about, because malbuttra seemed to think they were two, separate entities. Even if they were available on separate channels, though, I still believe they use the same "packets".

by the way,I checked the total packets counts on my two units, each of which has had analog hosts continuously for more than a month, so that they range - for each type on each unit - from about 500,000 to 3,000,000:

On my v7 3410a, the ratio of A to B is 1 to 5;
on my v8 Sony, the ratio of B to C is 2.5 to 1.

So B is the big winner in in both cases...Tony

I too was mis-using the term stream in place of packets. I also only have 1 source of TVGOS data, so it has to have all 3 types of packets in the stream. I was trying to figure out how a v7 device, had no listings, and a v8 device had no listings, but a (presumably) v9 device did have listings, and, as the station said, was "fully populated".

When I wrongly asked if the v8, and v9 stream was the same, your correct response was, that it was exactly the same. I misinterpreted this as you saying the v8, and v9 packets are the same. Which lead to me being more confused. I now understand that you were saying that in Chicago the v8, and v9 packets come from one TVGOS host channel, but the v7 packets come from a different TVGOS host channel.

Mark

Mark... I hope you do understand that only a digital station can have a "normal" stream that serves both v8 and v9 units, and only an analog station can have both v7 and v8 (as well as the even OLDER versions)... Tony

(I say " normal", because the digital station can also have the SCTE127 stream, which has embedded in it the packets needed by the analog versions...)

I think I understand that, but can't the v9 data also come from an analog station? Isn't that how Rammitinski is currently getting his v9 data?

Is the "normal" digital stream also called TVG1?

So if you have a v7 device, then you will have to have a source that is converting the SCTE127 data stream (cable, or the DTVPal).

Mark