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TVGOS ( TV Guide On Screen ) Devices - Page 18

post #511 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

mabutta,
The best way I can answer your question is "There are two ways a cable company can "Transport" the analog wave form to its customers." Not "convert."

1. The TVGOS analog wave form is sent from the source (Rovicorp) through an analog phone line to a analog inserter which used to be in the PBS stations, and now is placed in the cable head end. The analog wave form is then inserted into the VBI of any analog channel of the cable companies choosing and then sent to the customer.

2. The TVGOS analog wave form is duplicated, then digitized at the source (Rovicorp). Then it is sent along with TVG1 and TVG2 on a mpeg transport stream using a DSL, to the inserter were the three streams are then inserted into the mpeg stream of the host stations high definition digital feed. Then it arrives at the cable head end were the hd feed, along with the digitized analog wave form (legacy stream), is downconverted, using SCTE 127 compliant equipment, to a standard defintion analog channel which includes the restored TVGOS analog wave form. It is then sent along to the customer.

I was thinking as I was typing this that all 10 versions of TVGOS can use the original analog data stream to populate the guides. Only 2, version 9 and 10, can use the digital data stream with out the need for patches to populate the guide. And one, version 10, can use a broadband ethernet connection to populate the guide.

If it wasn't for people who use OTA to get guide data, Rovicorp can just put analog inserters in all the cable headends and completely eliminate the need to have digital inserters at host stations. It the use of the public airwaves that require the TVGOS data to be digitized for transport from the source, Rovicorp, to the end user. If TVGOS would only work with cable then there will be no need to convert the original TVGOS analog wave form to digital because cable doesn't use the public air waves. Cable is a privately owned closed loop system.

In my opinion, it isn't a problem with the TVGOS data, it is the transport of TVGOS data to the end user that is causing the most problems because of the use of the public air waves.

WOW - are you backwards! In fact, based on TVGOS documents, I think all the stuff coming from TVGOS now is digital, with the v8 and up being broadcast (or sent via cable) as is and the legacy stream going separately, either over the air or to cable companies for conversion and insertion in vbi by the cable company or by the DTVPal.
post #512 of 1484
I posted this on the Sony DHG site as well:
I wrote Rovi about getting a TVGOS debug manual and here are the two replys I received:
The first Email and their reply:
--------------- Original Message ---------------
From: Michael A. Johnson
Sent: 7/21/2009 9:27 AM
To: Ce_customer_support@rovicorp.com
Subject: Training manual for digital TVGOS

Do you have available a training guide for the digital TVGOS system.
I am trying to find some updated information on the diagnostic screens ( under the 753... menu) for the digital tvgos. Most important would be which screens are relevant and what information would I need in order to trouble shoot guide problems or lack thereof.
What do I need from the diagnostics to help in determining when or how I will get a grid and channel lineup with listings after a reset back to factory defaults.
Thank You,
Michael

Michael, This information is not provided to consumers only to our CE Partners as it is mostly engineering debug information. If this as I am sure related to your lost listings if you can provide the following we can investigate this for you.

Best Regards
CE Technical Support

This is the second Email and their reply:
--------------- Original Message ---------------
From: Michael A. Johnson
Sent: 8/4/2009 4:28 PM
To: ce_customer_support@rovicorp.com
Subject: Re: Training manual for digital TVGOS [ ref:00D49pu7.50048Fupd:ref ]

Thank you for your reply. As of now I have listings, but since things are
now digital, I would like to get a copy of the TVGOS digital debug manual.

Dear Michael,

There is no such "TVGOS digital debug manual" that you speak of.

We are happy to hear that you have listings and a working guide. We are closing this case as there does not appear to be any TVGOS problem you need help with.

Thank you.
I received this last reply on the 27th of August. You can see when I Emailed them on the 4th of August.
Michael
post #513 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

WOW - are you backwards! In fact, based on TVGOS documents, I think all the stuff coming from TVGOS now is digital, with the v8 and up being broadcast (or sent via cable) as is and the legacy stream going separately, either over the air or to cable companies for conversion and insertion in vbi by the cable company or by the DTVPal.

avnstf,
I am having a hard time understanding your post. Can you please give me a better explanation of what is "backwards" with my post?
post #514 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by ABQGeo View Post

[...]

On another note: Most of us know about the magic "X"/"I" keys (753159852) to get to the TVGOS data screens.

I found in another post this tidbit about entering 179324865 with the "Change System Settings" highlighted. When I do this with my version(s) 8.1.42/8.6.44 up pops a window that says, "Enable ATSC" ??????

Hmmm, does this mean that this pre version 9 software will actually decode the digital TCGOS data? Right now, I'm enjoying having the tv guide back too much to do much experimenting. Especially with this waiting 24 hours for results.


Albuquerque George

George,

Is the DTVPal still working for you ok? Also, did you ever try the 971397135 code on your TV. This is the code for running the G* Test. On the Sony DVRs running the G* Test turns on the processing of digital TVGOS data. If it works like the Sonys, you should be able to remove the DTVPal and still continue to get listings.

Mark
post #515 of 1484
****CAUTION! THE USE OF THESE CODES IS DONE AT YOUR OWN RISK!****
If you do not understand the description of the code or it sounds dangerous please do not try it!

I don't know how many versions of TVGOS these work with but can confirm that they work with version 8 and 9 TVGOS TVs that I own. Also these codes work on any TVGOS embedded device so there is no need to go into the service menu of any TVGOS embedded device.

I found this list while researching TVGOS about three years ago. I recovered it from one of my old hard drives this morning. I do believe that this list is also on spiffspace to.

****************************************

Procedure to use any 9 Digit TVGOS Code with Version 8 and Version 9 TVGOS:

1. Using the remote that came with the device, press GUIDE button.
2. Press MENU button.
3. Select "Go To Menu Bar" in box that pops up on left of guide.
4. Using Key Pad on remote, Arrow right to SETUP. If it doesn't enter the setup menu automatically then Press the Enter or Select button in the center of the keypad.
5. Just HIGHLIGHT "Change System Settings" Don't Select.
6. Enter the 9 Digit TVGOS Code that you want to use. A description of the code will appear in the info box below "Change System Settings"
Tip: If you want to enter other codes with out leaving the guide and redoing the process just arrow down from "Change System Settings" to "Edit Channels" but don't select, then arrow back up and RE HIGHLIGHT "Change System Settings" and enter another 9 Digit Code.

NOTE: If you are in the Diagnostics menu, just push the info button on your remote and that will bring you back out to the SETUP menu. The info box should say "Diagnostics". You can also enter the 9 digit codes while in the diagnostics menu.

Other Versions:

Version 0 of the Guide does not have any diagnostics.
You can recognize a V0 device by its menu:
SURF NEXT SCAN SORT

Version 1 of the Guide does have diagnostics.
You can recognize a V1 device by its menu:
FEATURES NEXT SCAN SORT
For V1 Diagnostics, select FEATURES, then DIAGNOSTICS, enter the diagnostic code of 753 159 852.

Version 2 to Version 7 of the Guide does have diagnostics.
You can recognize a V2 to V7 device by its menu:
GRID SORT SCHEDULE MESSAGES
For V2 to V7 Diagnostics, go to MESSAGES, down arrow to highlight the TVG ID number, enter the diagnostic code of 753 159 852 (for some RCA devices, precede this code with a 2).

Version 8 does have diagnostics.
You can recognize a V8 device by its menu:
SCHEDULE RECORDINGS LISTINGS SEARCH SETUP
For V8 Diagnostics, Open TV Guide On Screen, highlight SETUP on the service bar, down arrow once, enter the diagnostic code of 753 159 852.

Version 9 does have diagnostics.
You can recognize a V9 device by its menu:
SCHEDULE LISTINGS SEARCH SETUP
For V9 Diagnostics - According to real world users: Open TV Guide On Screen, highlight SETUP on the service bar, down arrow once, enter the diagnostic code of 753 159 852. (But, according to Macrovision: Open TV Guide On Screen, highlight SETUP on the service bar, press ENTER, enter the diagnostic code of 753 159 852.) Whatever works for you.

NOTE: For V9 Guide Daily, Bring up TV Guide, press 'Menu' button, highlight first choice, enter the diagnostic code of 753 159 852.

*******************************************

Tips for when your are in the Factory Test Screen (G Test) 971397135:

You can use this test to see if the current channel you are tuned to has TVGOS data on it. Use the same procedure that you you would use to enter the diagnostics screen but enter 9 digit code 971397135 instead.
When you are in the Factory test screen you will notice the five tests that it does is located on the left side of the screen. They are in order:
1: Flash Test
2: VBI Test
3: ATSC Test
4: Serial Test
5: IR Test
It will take about 20 to 30 seconds to pass or fail all five tests. If you want to rerun any of the tests just press the corresponding number on your remote to rerun that specific test.
Example: Pressing 2 on your remote will rerun the VBI test or pressing 3 on your remote will rerun the ATSC Test.
NOTE: If either or both the VBI test and or the ATSC test fail, then there is no TVGOS data for that channel.
To exit the test screen just press clear or the guide button on your remote. You may have to turn your device off and possibly unplug it to stop the test.

NOTE: I can not enter the factory test screen on my Version 9 Pioneer 5010. I've been told that the factory test (G Test) is always running on the digital capable guides (Version 9 and up).

*******************************************

9 Digit TVGOS Codes

797654141 ID Number Regenerated
444555666 Accepting Test Patches
666555444 Declining Test Patches
777888999 Subscriptions Enabled
147412356 Warm Reset
653274147 System Reset
653214741 Cold Reset
193758246 Service Information
753159852 Diagnostics
123123123 All Channels On
114119196 Alpha Enabled
666377243 NFP Message
872253867 Ad Track Dump
872255647 Ad Track Logs
746978287 Show Stats
663366746 Demo Pin %s
736683837 Enable IR Tests
824824812 VBI Search 12
963214785 VBI Search Current Channel
533733663 Keep Demo Data
222333111 G-LINK Diag Dump
147852369 Phone Home
562333663 Load Demo Data
842656248 Toggle Phone Modem Prefix
458798565 Toggle Phone Modem Com Port
464821864 Phone Modem Beta Number
129547358 Phone Modem Test Number
998768589 Phone Modem Production Number
152368459 Toggle Time of Feed
111111111 Test
111222333 Clear Reset Info
658545256 Do Next Phone Home
789789789 Clear since-cold gclock diags
123789255 Set PM Flag 255
987321255 Clr PM Flag 255
352747373 Reset Flash Memory
352742666 Commit Flash Memory
352747283 Save To Flash Memory
352747378 Restore From Flash Memory
444555555 Enter Parameter
987789987 VBI Quick Search Cur Channel
444555333 File System White Box Test
444555777 File System White Box Recovery
474747474 Dial '1234' in each mode
971397135 Enter Factory Test Screen (G Test)
882666564 Toggle TVComm Log
194219421 Start G-LINK
392378466 Generate exception
963852741 File System Shell
741236547 Purge Pgmmgr
237837837 BER Test
214532568 Fake Cable Card Insertion
325621458 Fake Cable Card Removal
951478632 Clickstream Support ON
236874159 Clickstream Support OFF
589632147 Glink Modem Support ON
741236985 Glink Modem Support OFF
515359575 Commit All Data
987456321 Sys Heap Debug Snapshot
874563219 Sys Heap Block Use Analysis
745632198 Sys Heap Space Use Analysis
179324865 Enable ATSC
147258369 Force Slicing
472749564 Toggle Graphics Log
752954783 Dump Playlist
545572824 Delete Patch File
339927439 Disable VBI

NOTE: Added 339927439 "Disable VBI" to list but never tried it to confirm what it does.

NOTE:The 9 digit code, 179324865 Enable ATSC, on my Version 9 Pioneer 5010 says "Disable Analog Tuning". The code worked but a side effect I found is when you enter the Channel Editor and if you edit any channel between 90 and 130 to a different channel assignment, they will be set back to there original assignment when you exit the Channel Editor. I had to do two full factory resets in a row to get it to stop doing this.
I also got the same effect when I used these codes: 987789987 VBI Quick Search Cur Channel and 963214785 VBI Search Current Channel. I don't know if this happens with the Version 8 guides.
post #516 of 1484
I don't know if it is posted any where else.
This is a news article from April 2009 about Macrovision (now Rovicorp) signing a deal with National Datacast (PBS) to do the digital downloads for TVGOS. As with the CBS deal, it doesn't specify that all PBS stations must cooperate with the deal.
Here is the link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...09+PRN20090421
post #517 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

avnstf,
I am having a hard time understanding your post. Can you please give me a better explanation of what is "backwards" with my post?

I was also a little surprised at avnstf's response. I wish he would explain it a little more. My guess is that he doesn't think they are using pure analog TVGOS at all any more.

I found the information in point 2 to be spot on from my limited understanding of how it works. I had not heard that some cable companies are using the old analog inserters, but it would explain why they are sending TVGOS data out on other channels besides CBS (why would they go to the trouble of stripping the SCTE-127 data off one channel, just so they could send the data out on another channel?). I know the TVGOS data on my cable system is the SCTE-127 data, because every time the CBS station has had a TVGOS outage, it has affected both my OTA DVR, and my analog DVR that gets it's data from cable.

Mark
post #518 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post
I was also a little surprised at avnstf's response. I wish he would explain it a little more. My guess is that he doesn't think they are using pure analog TVGOS at all any more.

I found the information in point 2 to be spot on from my limited understanding of how it works. I had not heard that some cable companies are using the old analog inserters, but it would explain why they are sending TVGOS data out on other channels besides CBS (why would they go to the trouble of stripping the SCTE-127 data off one channel, just so they could send the data out on another channel?). I know the TVGOS data on my cable system is the SCTE-127 data, because every time the CBS station has had a TVGOS outage, it has affected both my OTA DVR, and my analog DVR that gets it's data from cable.

Mark
Mark - they would "strip" the SCTE-127 data off a digital station, because that's how it's transmitted, but it is irrelevant to the digital channel itself...the SCTE-127 data COMES along with a digital broadcast channel, but it is FOR USE (after conversion) with an analog channel, so that legacy devices that REQUIRE the TVGOS data from an ANALOG channel can get the TVGOS program listings.

According to a basic TVGOS document from last fall describing how TVGOS would work in the digital world, there are currently TWO digital streams, which can be seen if you look at the CBS broadcast...TVG1 is the main set of TVGOS data, TVG2 is a currently unused broadcast "stream", and the LEGACY digital stream (SCTE-127) is what cable companies AND individuals with the DTVPal or equivalent convert for insertion into the vbi of (in the case of cable) whatever analog station they want to carry analog TVGOS for units that need it, or (in the case of the DTVPal) into the vbi for the analog output from conversion of the local digital CBS station.

I can't put my finger on the document, which was referred to LOT in the fall
and winter....WAIT...see below.

The SCTE-127 stream is for units that NEED TVGOS in the vbi of an analog station (whether cable or a converted OTA digital channel). The MAIN TVGOS data stream (TVG1) for a digital broadcast station is what units like the Sony 250/500 use for the TVGOS data, in the absence of an analog station that carries legacy data in its vbi.

Frankly I am unfamiliar with how cable works with digital units, though - just before my housemate gave up her hundred buck a month cable subscription - I DID verify that my LG 3410a COULD get analog TVGOS data from the PBS analog cable channel...

Anyway, the document I am describing, wherever it may be found, definitely described - as you understood from my comments - the TVGOS data as having the TWO streams I mentioned going out DIGITALLY...the main (what I guess we would call NORMAL) digital TVGOS stream, and the SCTE-127 LEGACY digital stream, which could be converted for insertion into the vbi of analog channels, either cable or OTA-converted...

AHAH! I found the copy of that document that I had downloaded to my computer...I am going to try to attach it to this post.

Frankly, I have trouble interpreting some of what is said in the document, but in the end it emphasizes that after the broadcast analog shutdown, it is the SCTE-127 digital stream, which is so-called "vbi in mpeg", that provides TVGOS data for conversion and insertion into the vbi of analog channels...

Cheers - Tony

(Sorry for being too blunt in my earlier post, but this whole issue seemed to be old news... and I guess I have some raw nerves because of how thoroughly UNHELPFUL the TVGOS people are with respect to problems like those experienced by those of us who NEED the analog TVGOS data for our units, but aren't getting them to work)

 

Gemstar technical guide for broadcasters etc.pdf 247.505859375k . file
post #519 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

[...]

According to a basic TVGOS document from last fall describing how TVGOS would work in the digital world...

[...]

The SCTE-127 stream is for units that NEED TVGOS in the vbi of an analog station (whether cable or a converted OTA digital channel). The MAIN TVGOS data stream (TVG1) for a digital broadcast station is what units like the Sony 250/500 use for the TVGOS data, in the absence of an analog station that carries legacy data in its vbi.

Thanks for the clarification. My problem with your post is you appeared to pan his entire post, yet you just described again what I thought he described perfectly in his point 2 from his original post (I think he is calling the TVG1, and TVG2 two streams which is how he came up with 3 streams, instead of 2). I also have a copy of that TVGOS document... the problem is it only addresses the digital TVGOS and how it is transmitted, along with the legacy data. If they are still using analog inserters, that document wouldn't mention it, because it is only describing the digital method of transmission. It may be that stripping off the SCTE-127 data, and sending it out on a different channel may be simple. I thought the analog inserter explanation also sounds valid.

Mark
post #520 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

...It may be that stripping off the SCTE-127 data, and sending it out on a different channel may be simple. I thought the analog inserter explanation also sounds valid.

well, if a 50-buck DTVPal can convert the legacy digital stream and insert the resulting data into the vbi of the converted CBS channel, certainly inserting it into any analog cable channel has to be trivial for a cable provider...maybe cost 55 bucks?

I just kind of doubt that TVGOS is sending anything to anybody now in analog form...which could be why some cable systems dropped the TVGOS data (often temporarily)...slow on the uptake...

but...you know...I could be wrong...Tony
post #521 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

I don't know if it is posted any where else.
This is a news article from April 2009 about Macrovision (now Rovicorp) signing a deal with National Datacast (PBS) to do the digital downloads for TVGOS. As with the CBS deal, it doesn't specify that all PBS stations must cooperate with the deal.
Here is the link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...09+PRN20090421

that article is interesting, although I think it may be talking specifically about the NEXT form of TVGOS - which has been touted by Rovi-whatever as being interactive, e.g., where the USER specifies the form of what he/she wants to see, search for, etc...

(Though of course, any such agreement could also include the traditional form of TVGOS...)
post #522 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

According to a basic TVGOS document from last fall describing how TVGOS would work in the digital world, there are currently TWO digital streams, which can be seen if you look at the CBS broadcast...TVG1 is the main set of TVGOS data, TVG2 is a currently unused broadcast "stream", and the LEGACY digital stream (SCTE-127) is what cable companies AND individuals with the DTVPal or equivalent convert for insertion into the vbi of (in the case of cable) whatever analog station they want to carry analog TVGOS for units that need it, or (in the case of the DTVPal) into the vbi for the analog output from conversion of the local digital CBS station.

I can't put my finger on the document, which was referred to LOT in the fall
and winter....WAIT...see below.

Interesting. I have a number of references from last fall that talk about TVGX2. Mostly from the standards body and a couple of cable oriented.

This white paper from Tandberg has some diagrams that I find illustrate the SCTE-127 - VBI bit nicely

http://www.tandbergtv.com/uploads/do...og-Turnoff.pdf

figure 19 on page 18 - Text starts on page 13, relevant bit to TVGOS starts on bottom of page 17.

Other reference docs
Carriage of Vertical Blanking Interval (VBI) Data in North American Digital Television Bitstreams - SCTE doc
http://www.scte.org/documents/standa...CTE1272007.pdf

TVG2X PES data field in the SCTE standards doc. Look at page 11 of that doc and it shows the construction of the packet.

TVG2X_data_block: this field corresponds to the 32 active data bits following the clock run-in and framing code of the TVG2X waveform, as defined in CEA 2020 [7]. Data bits are inserted in the PES packet in the same order as they appear in the VBI.

ATSC Standard: Carriage of Legacy TV Data Services
www.atsc.org/standards/a_99.pdf

"Note: The term “VBI data” is historical and not necessarily descriptive of data carried as an optional auxiliary element in a DTV system. The payloads specified in ANSI/SCTE 127 [2] can enter an ATSC broadcast facility from:
• encoders with NTSC (analog) input, or
• distribution MPEG-2 Transport Streams with ANSI/SCTE 127 [2] already encoded, or
• in SDI/HD-SDI VANC encoded per SMPTE 2031[3]
Note: Some signals carried by ANSI/SCTE 127 [2] are actually placed in the top two lines of active video within an NTSC signal. This was done intentionally, since historically, a number of common devices (tape decks and processing amplifiers) would strip all of the VBI lines."
Note: It is expected that the SCTE 127 stream will be part of a “normal” digital television service (e.g. service_type 2). Uses with other service_type values or in a data-only minor channel, although not forbidden, are not defined here."

ATSC Recommended Practice:
Conversion of ATSC Signals for Distribution to NTSC Viewers
www.atsc.org/standards/a_79.pdf (This one has a pretty extensive references section)
5.4.2 ANSI/SCTE 127 Data
ATSC PIRDs should decode ANSI/SCTE 127 [15] payloads carried per ATSC A/99 [17] and should re-encode all the payload data as analog waveforms on the appropriate line. When present, CEA-608 [14] data carried per A/53 Part 4 [6] should take precedence over any line 21 (or line 284) data present in ANSI/SCTE 127 [14] payloads.
Section 7 is Broadcast Station Infrastructure Guidelines
Covers closed captioning, content advisory and ANSI/SCTE 127 data
"7.4 ANSI/SCTE 127 Data
The ATSC encoder should encode ANSI/SCTE 127 [15] payloads if provisioned to do so. CEA-608 [14] data should be carried per A/53 Part 4 [6] as mentioned in Section 7.2.1, rather than ANSI/SCTE 127 [15]."



Evidently Tandberg has an ATSC receiver, the RX8320, that is supposed to handle the SCTE 127 data (including Nielsen AMOL-48/-96, TV Guide TVG2X) pass-through and translation to VBI. But this is a cable head end solution - not a broadcast insertion.
post #523 of 1484
hi all... sorry to have not posted recently, and i hope i'm not covering ground that has not already been covered, but i believe i have an answer to how to get this TR-40 ( and derivitives ) to actually work ( in my case )...

i will post this on all TVGOS threads that i'm subscribed to, in hope of conveying to all.

1 - my setup

OTA > TR40 ( using RF channel 3 ouput ) > PANNY DMR-E95 V7 ( analog tuner, analog TVGOS ) > TV....

2 - TR40 programming process

TR40 initialized using regular installation process...

3 - Panny programming process

panny set to Cable NO, Box NO, regular ZIP ( mine is 89052 - las vegas )

4 - sequence of events

shut down panny
wait at least 24 hours ( important... be patient )
panny might get confused... might display ' search for data has failed '
leave the thing alone and let it sit turned off longer
panny clock gets updated when it finds a host channel ( important -
panny has not necessarily figured it all out yet. all it knows is that it
found enough guide data to set its clock... it's still working on stuff )

leave the thing alone some more and wait...
panny then finds its HOST channel AND host identification ( important -
it is NOT just the RF channel, here, but the identification of the
host as well. in my case, it found the host with data on CBS, normally channel 8-1, RF channel 7 ( on the TR40 ), and on RF channel 3 on the
panny.

at this point, the panny has enough to obtain a channel lineup...
wait for the panny to display a lineup grid ( it will indicate NO LISTINGS for everyhing...

here is where the panny gets really confused... in my case, the panny knows where the TVGOS data is coming from... RF channel 3 ( output of TR40 ), AND the CBS affiliate. but in the listing grid lineup, the panny thinks that CBS
( KLAS ) is on its normal channel ( in my case, channel 8 )...

if you leave the panny in this state, you never get a listing update because the panny goes after KLAS, which it thinks is on RF channel 8... after several days, you continue to get no listings due to this, and then finally the panny will give up...

once you have a lineup, it's IMPERATIVE to go into the listing channel lineup and CHANGE the host station to the same channel that the panny uses for its found host channel... in my case, i manually changed KLAS from RF channel 8
to RF channel 3... while i made other changes in the channel editor, i don't
think it's important to make any other changes in the TVGOS channel editor.

the key, here, is that it's not only important to keep the host station turned ON in the channel editor, but to actually assign that station to whatever channel your panny thinks that host station is transmitting on. once the panny has a lineup, it will use whatever channel that lineup says is for the host station. if you have not changed the station in question to the same channel as it originally found TVGOS data on, the panny will get lost and stop working...

so far, i've gone 48 hours, and continue to receive grid updates... i'll report back again to advise if i get a full week's worth of updates...

5 - important notes

1 - success is on my oldest TR40 with F103 firmware. i suspect that it will also work on my newer TR40 ( still F103 ), as well as my DTVPAL+ ( F106 ),
although i have not tested these other boxes all the way through.

2 - these boxes DO have bugs. if the tuner is commanded ( in TVGOS mode )
to go to an unoccupied channel, the boxes will lock up and may not recover without a power down restart. all 3 of my boxes do this. sometimes if i wait long enough, they will once again respond, but i usually just do a power down restart to get them to respond again.

3 - these boxes have some problems with the remote IR receivers. one of my boxes is almost deaf in that i must hold a remote within INCHES of the box for it to respond. another of my boxes is suceptible to spurious IR signals, even from RANDOM light in the room. in my case, this is what causes the box to want to jump out of TVGOS mode. the solution is to COVER the remote
IR detector with BLACK vinyl tape after setup so it becomes DEAF to ambient
light. in this condition, the TR40 will still respond if you hold a remote about 1
inch away from the box.

4 - this setup works properly, if the object of the game is to just get listings
without using the box for anything else. in my case, i just want a week's worth of listings, and i use external stuff for actual reception. in my case, i'm currently mixing the channel 3 TR40 output with the RF distribution output of a dish network SAT receiver ( modulated on channel OTA channel 51 )...

you can do whatever you want as far as the mix is concerned, as long as the TR40 ( on channels 3 or 4 ) is in the clear in the mix, and the panny can receive it without interference from other channels in the mix.

5 - again, the real key to this mess is to update the host station's RF channel
to channel 3 ( or 4 if you are using the TR40 output on channel 4 ) once you get a lineup into the panny's TVGOS system. the panny NEEDS to have what it thinks is its host station synchronized in its channel editor in order for it to get past the lineup and start populating the grid.

sorry for the long post, but i've been going crazy trying to get this thing to work right for over a year now, and it finally came to life...

best regards and good luck....

ron g...
post #524 of 1484
All of this is wonderful, but I think things would go much smoother if end-users were allowed to specify (during the initial setup process) the host channel for TVGOS. Manufacturers could list a toll-free number in the owner's manual, and callers would simply state their country & zip code to obtain the correct host channel number, regardless of their setup.
post #525 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

I was also a little surprised at avnstf's response. I wish he would explain it a little more. My guess is that he doesn't think they are using pure analog TVGOS at all any more.

I found the information in point 2 to be spot on from my limited understanding of how it works. I had not heard that some cable companies are using the old analog inserters, but it would explain why they are sending TVGOS data out on other channels besides CBS (why would they go to the trouble of stripping the SCTE-127 data off one channel, just so they could send the data out on another channel?). I know the TVGOS data on my cable system is the SCTE-127 data, because every time the CBS station has had a TVGOS outage, it has affected both my OTA DVR, and my analog DVR that gets it's data from cable.

Mark

Awesome observastion Mark. A great piece of info for troubleshooting.

My cable company, Service Electric, just hooked up a analog inserter on august 21st. BUT.....its awaiting full activation from Rovicorp. They are inserting the actual TV Guide 2x VBI waveform (also known as the "legacy stream") into the analog copy of WVIA which used to be the old host station in the Wilkes Barre/Scranton DMA. As stated before they can inject the TV Guide 2x VBI waveform into the VBI of any analog channel in their lineup, even a blank 6 Mhz analog channel.
SE can't convert the "legecy stream" because 1, there is no digital inserter in my DMA and 2, they don't have the proper equipment to convert it yet.

I was doing some testing (running the G test)with my RCA Scenium HD50LPW175YX1 with version 8 (08.01.44) and using my Pioneer Kuro 5010 with version 9 (09.01.46) for comparison, and I came up with a startling observation. My RCA can read the Mpeg legacy stream.
I tried to run the factory test during the TVG1 download period, 12:51am-5:26pm, and soon as the test started about 50 packets in 2 seconds would show up then the tv would freeze up, shutdown, and restart setting the guide back to factory default.
If I run the factory test after TVG1 downloads, 5:26pm-12:51am, It would pass both the VBI test and ATSC test and start downloading about 4 packets a second. It set the internal clock to UTC and also set the offset time, set the clock channel, but not the host channel, and after about 15 minutes I got a 5307 download schedule. I only got zip code packets and download schedule packets and nothing else. for the whole time. I tried night after night and got the same results.
Also, at every quarter of the hour and quarter after the hour for one minute, something would cause the tv to do the same thing when TVG1 was running, Freeze up, shutdown, restart, setting the guide back to factory defaults. So I have to stop the test at those times and then restart it after the one minute has passed.
NOTE: My version 9 using TVG1 has a packet rate of about 30 packets a second.

TVG1 doesn't run in the evening an TVG2 isn't in use yet so that leaves the Mpeg legacy stream, which is an exact Mpeg digital copy of the TV Guide 2x VBI waveform. This is why it takes almost 3 days for you Sony DHG owners to recover to a working guide using Marks procedure. This is about the same time frame when everything was analog.
This also can explain some of the erratic behavior with the DHG like setting the host and losing it because it doesn't know which stream to read or stayed locked onto. My version 9 never loses its host.
Also, has anyone verified that the update patches for version 8 are even on the TVG1 stream. If not how does it get them.
This also can be the reason that Rovicorp says that version 8 guides can't do digital downloads which means TVG1, not running partially or fully off the Mpeg legacy stream.

NOTE:My version 9 can go from a complete reset to a full 8 day guide with all the ads in under 3 hours. This includes me editting almost 200 channels to get listings.

NOTE: Since I live in the southern portion of the Wilkes Barre DMA, my cable company provides me with the philadelphia broadcast channels which includes KYW HD.
Since Feb. 5th, the shutdown of WVIA analog signal, my 5010's have been using TVG1 from KYW HD. I'm using Service Electric of Allentown's cable card channel lineup, by using zip code 18101.
My channel lineup:
http://www.secable.com/mahanoycity/channel.html
http://www.secable.com/
I been trying this since the end of April to early July and just tried it again after the analog inserter got hooked up. So its not the presence of the analog inserter that is giving me these results. Also just ran G test on analog WVIA and it passes the VBI test but fails the ATSC test.

There is reference to the ability of an Mpeg decoder to decode the Legacy stream with out converting it back to analog in this article on page three:

http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/st...127%202007.pdf

On page 3:
Quote:


The VBI data transferred through the mechanism described in this document is intended to be
transcoded into the VBI of a companion video channel within an MPEG-2 Transport Stream. However,
it also is possible to transmit and transcode a VBI data stream on its own, without a companion video
channel. In addition it is possible for a decoder to interpret the data directly, without any intermediate
transcoding into the VBI.

On page 7:
Quote:


Semantics for the TVG2X_data_field
TVG2X_data_block: this field corresponds to the 32 active data bits following the clock
run-in and framing code of the TVG2X waveform, as defined in CEA 2020 [7]. Data bits
are inserted in the PES packet in the same order as they appear in the VBI.
post #526 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post
Mark - they would "strip" the SCTE-127 data off a digital station, because that's how it's transmitted, but it is irrelevant to the digital channel itself...the SCTE-127 data COMES along with a digital broadcast channel, but it is FOR USE (after conversion) with an analog channel, so that legacy devices that REQUIRE the TVGOS data from an ANALOG channel can get the TVGOS program listings.

According to a basic TVGOS document from last fall describing how TVGOS would work in the digital world, there are currently TWO digital streams, which can be seen if you look at the CBS broadcast...TVG1 is the main set of TVGOS data, TVG2 is a currently unused broadcast "stream", and the LEGACY digital stream (SCTE-127) is what cable companies AND individuals with the DTVPal or equivalent convert for insertion into the vbi of (in the case of cable) whatever analog station they want to carry analog TVGOS for units that need it, or (in the case of the DTVPal) into the vbi for the analog output from conversion of the local digital CBS station.

I can't put my finger on the document, which was referred to LOT in the fall
and winter....WAIT...see below.

The SCTE-127 stream is for units that NEED TVGOS in the vbi of an analog station (whether cable or a converted OTA digital channel). The MAIN TVGOS data stream (TVG1) for a digital broadcast station is what units like the Sony 250/500 use for the TVGOS data, in the absence of an analog station that carries legacy data in its vbi.

Frankly I am unfamiliar with how cable works with digital units, though - just before my housemate gave up her hundred buck a month cable subscription - I DID verify that my LG 3410a COULD get analog TVGOS data from the PBS analog cable channel...

Anyway, the document I am describing, wherever it may be found, definitely described - as you understood from my comments - the TVGOS data as having the TWO streams I mentioned going out DIGITALLY...the main (what I guess we would call NORMAL) digital TVGOS stream, and the SCTE-127 LEGACY digital stream, which could be converted for insertion into the vbi of analog channels, either cable or OTA-converted...

AHAH! I found the copy of that document that I had downloaded to my computer...I am going to try to attach it to this post.

Frankly, I have trouble interpreting some of what is said in the document, but in the end it emphasizes that after the broadcast analog shutdown, it is the SCTE-127 digital stream, which is so-called "vbi in mpeg", that provides TVGOS data for conversion and insertion into the vbi of analog channels...

Cheers - Tony

(Sorry for being too blunt in my earlier post, but this whole issue seemed to be old news... and I guess I have some raw nerves because of how thoroughly UNHELPFUL the TVGOS people are with respect to problems like those experienced by those of us who NEED the analog TVGOS data for our units, but aren't getting them to work)
No problem for being blunt, I have the same thoughts concerning TVGOS.

I also have that same document but what we don't know if there was more than one document in that packet and I don't think that this document was for our eyes to see, only broadcast engineers at cable companies and broadcast facilities. If you want to burn a few brain cells here are two documents mentioned in this document:
http://www.atsc.org/standards/a99.php
This next one is an interesting read and relates to the reply I just gave to mabuttra:
http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/st...127%202007.pdf

Useful information from Delivering Data to TV Guide Consumer Electronic Devices Attachment 152668

Definition of Terms:
TVG2X: TV Guide 2x VBI waveform, a unique waveform patented by TV Guide. It is twice the density of the closed captioning waveform. (aka: legacy stream)
Legacy: In this document refers to VBI data carried over digital infrastructures.

This next information is on pages 5 and 6:

Digital Data Streams
There are three digital data streams that TV Guide employs to support end-user CE Guides.

VBI data stream
The VBI data stream carries SCTE 127 data, also known as “VBI in MPEG.” This provides a mechanism for the carriage of Vertical Blanking Interval (VBI) data or legacy data services. All encoded VBI fields are contained in a single stream, so there is only one SCTE 127 stream per MPEG program. If a broadcaster or MVPD chooses to encode, for example, Nielsen AMOL or North American Broadcast Teletext Specification (NABTS) data into the stream, the encoding device will add these services to a single SCTE 127 stream. Cable operator video encoders have the capability to remove an SCTE 127 stream. Video encoders must be enabled to generate an SCTE 127 data stream.
As long as analog VBI data continues to be included in broadcast station transmissions, SCTE 127 data may be generated from two sources:
1. A headend video encoder may convert analog VBI into an SCTE 127 data stream.
2. An ATSC broadcaster may originate an SCTE 127 data stream.

Datapipe data stream
In addition to SCTE 127 data, TV Guide generates two datapipe streams. These streams contain proprietary private data that only TV Guide-enabled CE devices can decode.
CE Guides rely on the presence of a unique registration descriptor format identifier to locate TV Guide data. TV Guide format identifier field values are registered with the Society of Motion Picture Engineers (SMPTE) Registration Authority2. Multiplexers, cherry pickers or stream groomers may need to be configured to pass format identifier values. See Table 2 below for the unique format identifier values. Table 3 below is an example of the three data streams as seen by a bitstream analyzer.

Table 2: TV Guide data Streams
PID,- Purpose,- Format ID,- Typical PID,- Stream type

VBI data-- Legacy TV Guide data service: setup, lineup, listings, ads-- none-- 272 (dec.)/ 0x110-- 0x6

TVG1-- Digital TV Guide data service: setup, lineup, listings, ads-- TVG1 (ASCII)/0x54564731-- 273 (dec.)/ 0x111-- 0x5

TVG2-- Future use, TBD-- TVG2 (ASCII)/0x54564732-- 274 (dec.)/ 0x112-- 0x5

Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post
well, if a 50-buck DTVPal can convert the legacy digital stream and insert the resulting data into the vbi of the converted CBS channel, certainly inserting it into any analog cable channel has to be trivial for a cable provider...maybe cost 55 bucks?

I just kind of doubt that TVGOS is sending anything to anybody now in analog form...which could be why some cable systems dropped the TVGOS data (often temporarily)...slow on the uptake...

but...you know...I could be wrong...Tony
My cable company just installed a analog inserter on august 21st because they don't have access to a digital inserter and they don't have the proper equipment to convert the legacy stream if they had access to digital host.

The majority of the cable customers in the US is serviced by small privately owned cable companies and not by large corporate cable companies. So they don't have the access to capital to make upgrades to equipment in their head plant that is in good working order just to convert the TVGOS legacy stream. So it is easier to put an old analog inserter in the head end to accomplish the same thing. This was a work around that both Rovicorp and the cable operators came up with.
I guess we can call it their 50 dollar work around.

In fact, most of the people in north eastern PA is serviced by small privately owned cable companies like mine, Service Electric. By the way Service Electric is the first cable company in the US. It started in 1948 in Mahanoy City, right here where I live.

 

3d927cc0e5.pdf 247.505859375k . file
post #527 of 1484
Quote:
All of this is wonderful, but I think things would go much smoother if end-users were allowed to specify (during the initial setup process) the host channel for TVGOS.

I allready thought of that, but there is one problem that wouldn't make that fly; the 'local' host station would not want to be bothered with phone calls asking annoying troubleshooting questions that have nothing to do with them. They would want to remain anonymous.
post #528 of 1484
jjed1..yes this is very helpful, specially some of the codes i did not know.

first the update-

on the night of 8/28, i changed the zip to a neighboring zip (on the same cable service) and, surprisingly the guide has been perfect since then.

i have been watching, on daily basis, the host channel for the 7G-Kuro and the 8G-KURO....both have been showing 0:0-14 for over a month.

curiously, CH14 in our area is not PBS or CBS, it is a cable vision analog channel and they show channel guide on this for channels.

so my frustration has been: when both tvs were set up for the same zip, and locked to ch14 as the host channel, why the 8G-kuro was not decoding the guide data whereas the 7G-kuro was almost perfect?

so i do appreciate the useful info. now i think i'll wait before i try the reset codes...if the guide keeps up as well it has been, i may not have to anyway.

just an fyi, to all, the analog guide data is still up (on ch13 pbs) at least on our area.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

drgjka,
I have two 8 gen pio kuros (5010) with version 9 and both using cable cards.

It appears both your tvs are still using a analog host to get their data. Is channel 14 analog cbs? If it is, either your cable company has an analog inserter installed in the cable head end or they are successfully converting the mpeg legacy stream into analog vbi. If there is an analog inserter in the head end, the vbi data stream can be on any analog channel including a channel with no video or sound. It is also possible that this is the physical rf channel of your CBS HD channel.

Here is how to get your guide working properly again. Don't do this between 5:26pm and 12:51am because there is no TVG1 guide data at that time.

On your 8 gen pio with version 9 I want you to turn it on and then tune it to your CBS Hd channel, which is either WCBS or KYW since you live in NJ.

Then enter your tv guide, go to the service bar at the top of the guide, arrow over to setup and then just highlight "change systems settings" then enter 111222333, the message will say "clear reset info", this will get rid of any old data that is stored in the reset menu.

Next arrow down and then arrow back up to rehighlight "change system settings" and then enter 653274147. This is a full system reset that will restore the guide back to factory defaults. What will happen the guide will disappear and after about 10 seconds the tv will shut off and the blue light will blink 12 times per cycle. After 3 cycles turn the tv back on and wait about 5 minutes or so because the cable card will most likely reset and change to channel 2. Make sure that your zip code is correct and tune the tv to your CBS HD channel and then turn it off.

After about 2-3 hours, turn the tv on and you should be asked to pick your lineup. If not enter the guide and go to the menu bar select set up and arrow down to guide progress and see where it is. You might have to wait longer depending on what time of day it is. I suggest trying this in the morning hours for the quickest results.

If you want to do your version 8 use the same steps as above but do it at night and leave the tv off from 11:00pm to 7:00am so it can get the two update patches.

To use any 9 digit TVGOS code you always go to highlight change system settings, as written above, and enter the code.

You probably know the 9 digit code to get into the diagnostic menu but here it is anyway: 753159852

The code for the factory test screen (aka the G test) is 971397135. You must be tuned to the channel that you want to test in order to use it. I used it on my RCA DLP with version 8 and I had a hard time getting it out of the test so use it at your own risk. This code will work on any device including the sony dvr. There is no need to enter any service menu to run the G test.

I just had to reset my two 5010 last week because the clock was only updating only 2 times a day. Now they are working fine again.

I hope this helps and I apologize for being long winded.
post #529 of 1484
tony...it will be rude of me to say you are wrong as the TVGOS is complicated...

...but....

i have a panny dvr whith only an NTSC analog tuner...no digital or hd. it has been the best in getting the guide; the host channel per diagnostic screen is 0:0-13.

i think that means channel 13 which is PBS is our area.

as you may have read in my previous posts, my digital kuros were having more trouble getting the guide than this panny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

well, if a 50-buck DTVPal can convert the legacy digital stream and insert the resulting data into the vbi of the converted CBS channel, certainly inserting it into any analog cable channel has to be trivial for a cable provider...maybe cost 55 bucks?

I just kind of doubt that TVGOS is sending anything to anybody now in analog form...which could be why some cable systems dropped the TVGOS data (often temporarily)...slow on the uptake...

but...you know...I could be wrong...Tony
post #530 of 1484
well i am sure threre is some truth to it.... as posted above, i am getting the guide on the analog panny dvr from CH13 (pbs)

however, the digital pbs in our town is 713 but that has not shown up as the host channel on either of my kuros.

add- thanks for the article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

I don't know if it is posted any where else.
This is a news article from April 2009 about Macrovision (now Rovicorp) signing a deal with National Datacast (PBS) to do the digital downloads for TVGOS. As with the CBS deal, it doesn't specify that all PBS stations must cooperate with the deal.
Here is the link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...09+PRN20090421
post #531 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbell View Post

However, there is a catch, for sjohnson's application. People have reported that if they leave the Pal tuned to the same channel continuously, it stops converting TVGOS data after a few days. If they change channels on the Pal, away from the TVGOS host channel and then back to it, the TVGOS data starts again.

In normal operation of the Pal in TVGOS mode, this problem doesn't arise because some other device is controlling it via an IR blaster, which changes channels to whatever the user wants to watch, and automatically tunes the Pal to the TVGOS host channel when necessary.

I might as well also note for people who are unfamiliar with this procedure, that when the Pal is in TVGOS mode, it does not respond to its own remote, except for the power button, which reboots it into normal mode. In order to change channels on the Pal manually when it is in TVGOS mode, you have to use a universal remote set to control a Scientific Atlanta cable box, because this is what the Pal expects to receive from an IR blaster. Furthermore, you have to modify the digital channel number by dropping the period or dash and adding 100. For example, my digital TVGOS host channel is 49.1, so I have to enter "591".

Going further, in order to get TVGOS data from the Pal, you must tune the Pal to the host channel while it is in TVGOS mode, using Scientific Atlanta cable box codes. You do not get TVGOS data when you tune the Pal to the host channel using its own remote, before putting it in TVGOS mode.

That advice from jtbell a few pages back turned out to be huge for me. Previously I couldn't even get the clock data on my Toshiba's TVGOS Ant-2 RF input from the DTVPAL, even though I had no problem getting clock data when I used the IR Blaster and configured the TV to say that I was receiving the TVGOS from the DTVPal as a Cable Box via composite Video input. I had been blaming the TV all this time. The reason turned out I was doing the pretuning of the DTVPal to the host channel before going to the TVGOS mode. (Even though I had a universal remote set up in advance to the Scientific Atlanta codes for another experiment, I had stopped using it for any of this.) Once I instead did a couple of channel changes on the DTVPal with that remote using the Scientific Atlanta codes (while in TVGOS mode), and then finalized on the CBS host channel, I rather quick got the TVGOS clock data over Ant-2! (Note: In the future I may have to periodically use that same universal remote to change the DTVPal's channel to a non host channel and then back to the host channel, per the other information in jtbell's same post.) Thanks jtbell!
post #532 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by seattlemark View Post

...Once I instead did a couple of channel changes on the DTVPal with that remote using the Scientific Atlanta codes (while in TVGOS mode), and then finalized on the CBS host channel, and then finalized on the CBS host channel, I rather quick got the TVGOS clock data over Ant-2! Thanks jtbell!

yes, that is a known requirement for activating the legacy data conversion...

on the other hand, although jtbell notes that some have said they have to periodically retune the Pal for the conversion to continue, I've found that mine continues to yield TVGOS data on the output for at least a week or two, and perhaps longer (because I haven't monitored it longer than that)...

(On the other hand, aside from setting the clock, the Pal hasn't done my LG3410a any good, since I still have only "no listing" in the grid...)
post #533 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

(On the other hand, aside from setting the clock, the Pal hasn't done my LG3410a any good, since I still have only "no listing" in the grid...)

In my case, I will be happy to even maintain the TVGOS clock data, so then hopefully I will be able to at least do manual recordings from the HD FIOS Cable input. (I have a Toshiba Symbio recorder attached to the Toshiba TV via firewire.) Since the FIOS doesn't have any analog TVGOS data, I doubt I will ever have a grid for those channels anyway. Unless the DTVPal carries that channel lineup too.
post #534 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by drgkja View Post

jjed1..yes this is very helpful, specially some of the codes i did not know.

first the update-

on the night of 8/28, i changed the zip to a neighboring zip (on the same cable service) and, surprisingly the guide has been perfect since then.

i have been watching, on daily basis, the host channel for the 7G-Kuro and the 8G-KURO....both have been showing 0:0-14 for over a month.

curiously, CH14 in our area is not PBS or CBS, it is a cable vision analog channel and they show channel guide on this for channels.

so my frustration has been: when both tvs were set up for the same zip, and locked to ch14 as the host channel, why the 8G-kuro was not decoding the guide data whereas the 7G-kuro was almost perfect?

so i do appreciate the useful info. now i think i'll wait before i try the reset codes...if the guide keeps up as well it has been, i may not have to anyway.

just an fyi, to all, the analog guide data is still up (on ch13 pbs) at least on our area.

drgkja,
This is good news. If your guide is working and your satisfied, don't mess with it.

Since you have cablecards, your channel line up is all digital and channel 14 is a digital simulcast channel. Channel 14 that both guides are showing is probably the physical RF channel that WCBS is located on.

The best way to find out is to look in the diagnostic menus for the cablecards. First tune to your CBS HD channel. Press menu on your pioneer remote and then enter 999. This will bring you to the first menu of six menus in the cablecard diagnostic screen. Press the blue A button on your pioneer remote 5 times and this will bring you to channel info menu for cablecard.

The specific lines to pay attention to are lines 3, 5, 6, and 7.
1. Line 3. The frequency of the physical channel is listed in KHZ. If you drop the last three zeros then it will be MHz.
2. Line 5. Has the Mpeg PID for Video, Audio, and PCR. Any number in these three means that it is a digital channel. If these have all 0's then that designates that it is an analog channel.
3. Line 6. Program #. If there is a Program number then this also means that this is the digital sub channel of the physical RF channel listed in line 3. A 0 means analog.
4. Line 7. Lists the Video Format and the Aspect ratio of the channel you are tuned to.

Pressing menu on your remote will exit you from the cablecard diagnostics menu. You have to tune to the specific channel you want to analize before entering the cablecard diagnostics menu.

The Frequency for physical RF channel 14 is 120MHz to 126 MHz. Here is a chart for all the frequencies of the physical RF channels.

Also, I'm suspecting that there was a single analog channel that was in your cablecard list. This is how your guide was getting its info before the analog shutdown. It is probably a duplicate of your PBS station. Use the procedure above on all the PBS stations to find it. From your info, cablevision probably has an analog inserter and is injecting the data stream back into your PBS channel because if they were converting the legacy stream then it would be on the analog simulcast channel of WCBS HD.

I have a theory as for the need to use a different zip code between the two different guide versions. Each guide has it own set of host flags and since you have version 8 and 9 with each getting their data from the same host channel, you can take a quick look at the VBI data screen on the TVGOS diagnostics menu. Its the 3rd page up from the first screen and the info for HOSTSUFlags is on the bottom right of the page. My version 9 HOSTSUFlags is 0xfe000000. I'm suspecting that each version will have different numbers and or letters.

The version 8 is probably using an older zip code list and version 9 is using an updated zip code list that is put out for each DMA.

If it is not to much trouble, can you post the frequency of WCBS HD and the HOSTSUFlags of both guide versions?

Thanks, and again I'm sorry for being long winded.
post #535 of 1484
I'm about a 3 weeks post TVGOS reset/digital recovery via cablecard FIOS for my Sony HDD-500 unit. Everything working well except I cannot seem to select FIOS as my listings provider and it defaults to Comcast. I've tried 3 zipcodes in the DC/metro area. My only option is to reorder channel numbers for those that exist in both Comcast/FIOS lineups. I'm out of luck for anything that FIOS provides over Comcast.

Interestingly I just checked out this link

http://digitaltransition.macrovision.com/digtrans.aspx

and found...

Name Verizon FIOS TV of Silver Spg/Wa Metro - Silver Springs
Status Known problem
Description Your Cable provider will not support TV Guide/Guide Plus+ listings data after the digital transition. Please contact your cable provider for more information.

while Comcast:
Name Comcast - Loudoun County - Sterling Cable Ready
Status Known to be working
Description We have confirmed with your cable provider that you should receive TV Guide/Guide Plus+ listings after the digital transition. If you are not receiving listings or if your listings discontinue, please contact your cable provider for more information.

Anyone in the country using FIOS/cablecard and getting listings or no why FIOS is no longing supporting listings?
post #536 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by derek View Post

Anyone in the country using FIOS/cablecard and getting listings or no why FIOS is no longing supporting listings?

Verrizon has nothing to do with the availability of FiOS guide data via TVGOS. That's a commercial service from Rovi.

Since Verizon does not have any analog channels, and thus does not support TVGOS analog devices, so there is less demand for FiOS guide data.
post #537 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by derek View Post

Anyone in the country using FIOS/cablecard and getting listings or no why FIOS is no longing supporting listings?

Derek, coincidentally today after working on various configurations for many months, I just did get a (Seattle area) FIOS lineup a couple of hours ago, and I am on cablecard. Using many tips from various great posts on this and other AVS threads, I managed to do this by using a DTVPal on my Ant-2 of my Toshiba 42HP95, tuned to channel 3 right after a full TV-reset. Initially I just said I had the Ant-2 for TVGOS. After getting a clock, I added to that TVGOS setup the cable card on Ant-1 (and used my real zip code not the alternate regional one from the DTVPal manual). After sitting overnight, this morning I had lineups for both OTA and for FIOS for my area. (I was overjoyed after planning this for over a year, since I have a Toshiba Symbio AVHD recorder firewired to the TV.) For the OTA, in the TVGOS lineup, I turned off every Air Channel but the CBS channel, and that I modified in the lineup to say was on Channel 3 (so it doesn't get confused in a couple of days).

Interestingly, yesterday that Macrovision (now Rovi) site you mentioned shows that TVGOS is not carried by FIOS Cable in my area. Which is true, as I picked it up over the antenna with the DTVPal getting it from the local CBS station. So I was very pleasantly surprised when I found the FIOS lineup this morning coming in via the the DTVPal.

Note: I could not use the IR blaster with my configuration, because the TV's TVGOS setup would only support one Cable related input at a time, and I had to reserve that for the real FIOS/cablecard. (My TV will only use the IR Blaster with the DTVPal if I say the DTVPal is a cable box.) The most important thing I learned from the AVS Forums about initially setting up the DTVPal to run in TVGOS mode without the IR Blaster, was to switch it at least once to the Host Channel while it's in TVGOS mode (rather than before going into TVGOS mode). If it already happens to be on that Host Channel before going into TVGOS mode, then switch from and back to that Host Channel while in TVGOS mode (with the Scientific Atlanta codes and a universal remote). Also, many have reported that even afterwards while in TVGOS mode you have to periodically "maintain" it by doing that Host Channel switch from, and back to the Host Channel (some say around every 3 days, while others say maybe ever week or two). I guess the frequency of that required "maintenance" depends on our individual DTVPal's performance.
post #538 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by avnstf View Post

yes, that is a known requirement for activating the legacy data conversion...

on the other hand, although jtbell notes that some have said they have to periodically retune the Pal for the conversion to continue, I've found that mine continues to yield TVGOS data on the output for at least a week or two, and perhaps longer (because I haven't monitored it longer than that)...

(On the other hand, aside from setting the clock, the Pal hasn't done my LG3410a any good, since I still have only "no listing" in the grid...)

hi avnstf...

don't mean to go over old stuff, but just in case, once you got your lineup, did you modify the lineup so that your ' host station ' is programmed to the actual channel the pal is feeding your tv on ? if your pal is mixed in using rf channel 3 ( or 4 ) and your host station is ' kxyz on channel 9 ' , you need to modify the llineup channel for ' kxyz ' to rf channel 3 ( or 4 ) ... if this is not done, the tv won't receive anything beyond a lineup, because it will subsequently tune to whatever rf channel is represented in the lineup for the ' host station ' ... if that doesn't match your pal output rf channel, stuff stops...

hope i'm not repeating stuff you already know, but i only discovered this during the past week or so...

best rgds,
ron g
post #539 of 1484
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkg22 View Post

hi avnstf...

don't mean to go over old stuff, but just in case, once you got your lineup, did you modify the lineup so that your ' host station ' is programmed to the actual channel the pal is feeding your tv on ? if your pal is mixed in using rf channel 3 ( or 4 ) and your host station is ' kxyz on channel 9 ' , you need to modify the llineup channel for ' kxyz ' to rf channel 3 ( or 4 ) ... if this is not done, the tv won't receive anything beyond a lineup, because it will subsequently tune to whatever rf channel is represented in the lineup for the ' host station ' ... if that doesn't match your pal output rf channel, stuff stops...

hope i'm not repeating stuff you already know, but i only discovered this during the past week or so...

best rgds,
ron g

I guess I don't understand exactly what you mean...in my case the legacy data is coming via channel 5.1, which is converted to output channel 3 WITH the TVGOS data in the vbi, and my unit is latching onto analog channel 3 as the host channel

there is in fact an analog channel 3 in the TVGOS channel lineup, but this is actually irrelevant, since there is no actual analog channel 3 coming in on the antenna (and never was at my location), and in any case, when looking for TVGOS data, the LG (and other TVGOS units using analog data) scans the entire analog channel spectrum until it finds one with TVGOS data, and that is then the host channel...what is in the TV Guide lineup is not relevant for this purpose, though people in the LG thread previously thought that it was...
post #540 of 1484
this is getting both interesting and confusing jed1....no trouble in getting the info you asked for. here it is-

1. ch 14: i have been assuming that is analog b/c when i try to check its signal strength using pio's signal strength meter, it tells this is not a digital channel so no signal reading.

2. following your steps for the cc diagnostics, the freq for CBS-HD (ch 702) is 711000

3. for TVGOS ver is 08:01:68 (7G-TV) the HOSTSUFlag = 0xbf800000

4. for TVGOS ver is 09:01:46 (8G-TV) the HOSTSUFlag = 0xbe000000

so another interesting thing/quesiton-- when i went into the cc diag for the 7G-pio, the very first screen said: there is problem with your equipment.

error (52) during (CCI) exchange.

any idea what this error is?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

drgkja,
This is good news. If your guide is working and your satisfied, don't mess with it.

Since you have cablecards, your channel line up is all digital and channel 14 is a digital simulcast channel. Channel 14 that both guides are showing is probably the physical RF channel that WCBS is located on.

The best way to find out is to look in the diagnostic menus for the cablecards. First tune to your CBS HD channel. Press menu on your pioneer remote and then enter 999. This will bring you to the first menu of six menus in the cablecard diagnostic screen. Press the blue A button on your pioneer remote 5 times and this will bring you to channel info menu for cablecard.

The specific lines to pay attention to are lines 3, 5, 6, and 7.
1. Line 3. The frequency of the physical channel is listed in KHZ. If you drop the last three zeros then it will be MHz.
2. Line 5. Has the Mpeg PID for Video, Audio, and PCR. Any number in these three means that it is a digital channel. If these have all 0's then that designates that it is an analog channel.
3. Line 6. Program #. If there is a Program number then this also means that this is the digital sub channel of the physical RF channel listed in line 3. A 0 means analog.
4. Line 7. Lists the Video Format and the Aspect ratio of the channel you are tuned to.

Pressing menu on your remote will exit you from the cablecard diagnostics menu. You have to tune to the specific channel you want to analize before entering the cablecard diagnostics menu.

The Frequency for physical RF channel 14 is 120MHz to 126 MHz. Here is a chart for all the frequencies of the physical RF channels.

Also, I'm suspecting that there was a single analog channel that was in your cablecard list. This is how your guide was getting its info before the analog shutdown. It is probably a duplicate of your PBS station. Use the procedure above on all the PBS stations to find it. From your info, cablevision probably has an analog inserter and is injecting the data stream back into your PBS channel because if they were converting the legacy stream then it would be on the analog simulcast channel of WCBS HD.

I have a theory as for the need to use a different zip code between the two different guide versions. Each guide has it own set of host flags and since you have version 8 and 9 with each getting their data from the same host channel, you can take a quick look at the VBI data screen on the TVGOS diagnostics menu. Its the 3rd page up from the first screen and the info for HOSTSUFlags is on the bottom right of the page. My version 9 HOSTSUFlags is 0xfe000000. I'm suspecting that each version will have different numbers and or letters.

The version 8 is probably using an older zip code list and version 9 is using an updated zip code list that is put out for each DMA.

If it is not to much trouble, can you post the frequency of WCBS HD and the HOSTSUFlags of both guide versions?

Thanks, and again I'm sorry for being long winded.
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