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audyssey subwoofer issues

post #1 of 29
2/24/09 at 11:27pm
Thread Starter 
I posted this in the audyssey thread, but I think I might end up in the same boat as thegsrguy, as far as not getting an answer to my question. Basically when I have run audyssey it sets my trims at...
Left: -2
Center: -2
Right: -3
R Surround: 0
L Surround: +1
Sub: -14

Here's my post in the audyssey thread...

I have the Onkyo S5100 HTIB. I have run Audyssey 2EQ on it 4 times now. Every time I run it it keeps wanting to put the sub at either -13 or -14. The furthest it goes down is -15. I have gone from having the gain knob on the back at halfway to all the way down. I have moved the sub from beside my entertainment center to the corner and then angled it out from the corner (all with the front of the sub facing into the room).

The pic shows the three different sub placements I have tried along with everything else. The room is 14' deep and the width includes the family room, dining room, and kitchen (approx 30-35'). I have vaulted ceilings that go from 8' to approx 16'. This is really the only way I can have this room set up, but I can still move the sub around.

Any input on why this keeps happening? And what can I do different?



Why does it keep turning my sub way down? Could it be the location or what? I have no idea as I am a newb to most of this. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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post #2 of 29
2/25/09 at 6:44am
Quote:


Why does it keep turning my sub way down? Could it be the location or what? I have no idea as I am a newb to most of this. Any help would be greatly appreciated

Because your sub is probably 10x better then the rest of your setup and you placed it in a corner which produce even more SPL.
Therefore audyssey has to set it low to balance out the system.

Heck my sub and my mains are all set to -12 with audyssey just so my surrounds could be +1

Level matching by audyssey just does it but you can adjust the levels after audyssey is done EQing your setup so why do you care if its -14, -12 or whatever?

Set the trim level to what you like and enjoy your system

The biggest complaint about Audyssey is the bass managment and how it sets our Subs really low, Audyssey is trying to create a FLAT room EQ and honestly very few people are use to that type of EQ setting. Most love the "House Curve" setting, hence we love to turn up our subs
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post #3 of 29
2/25/09 at 9:00am
The sub's minimum distance from the wall should be equal to or greater than the woofer's diameter.

i.e. 12" woofer means at least 12" away from the wall


Run Audyssey with the crossover freq set as high as it goes. Put the volume in the middle. If Audyssey sets it at -15dB, turn the volume down a bit and re-run Audyssey. As long as you're not -15 or +15 it's fine.

If it sets it at +15, turn the volume up and re-run.

I had to do it a few times, but I have a big strong sub with 250W RMS power.
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post #4 of 29
2/25/09 at 9:03am
Quote:


but I have a big strong sub with 250W RMS power.

subjectively speaking

I have many subs and none have under 1000W
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post #5 of 29
2/25/09 at 9:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Because your sub is probably 10x better then the rest of your setup and you placed it in a corner which produce even more SPL.
Therefore audyssey has to set it low to balance out the system.

Heck my sub and my mains are all set to -12 with audyssey just so my surrounds could be +1

Level matching by audyssey just does it but you can adjust the levels after audyssey is done EQing your setup so why do you care if its -14, -12 or whatever?

Set the trim level to what you like and enjoy your system

The biggest complaint about Audyssey is the bass managment and how it sets our Subs really low, Audyssey is trying to create a FLAT room EQ and honestly very few people are use to that type of EQ setting. Most love the "House Curve" setting, hence we love to turn up our subs

I was reading that the trim level should be as close to 0 as you can get it. It's a powerful sub (10" 290W) I think for my size room. I was under the impression that it was bad for the receiver to cut back on that channel so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGSRGuy View Post

The sub's minimum distance from the wall should be equal to or greater than the woofer's diameter.

i.e. 12" woofer means at least 12" away from the wall


Run Audyssey with the crossover freq set as high as it goes. Put the volume in the middle. If Audyssey sets it at -15dB, turn the volume down a bit and re-run Audyssey. As long as you're not -15 or +15 it's fine.

If it sets it at +15, turn the volume up and re-run.

I had to do it a few times, but I have a big strong sub with 250W RMS power.

Does it really matter what crossover freq. you have it set at before you run audyssey? I thought audyssey disregards any settings and sets the trims and crossovers its capable of. I have had it at different levels and after audyssey it always ends up different.
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post #6 of 29
2/25/09 at 9:11am
Quote:


I was reading that the trim level should be as close to 0 as you can get it. It's a powerful sub (10" 290W) I think for my size room. I was under the impression that it was bad for the receiver to cut back on that channel so much.

trim levels are just speaker level matching tools...wether they are -5, -12, 0, 4 or whatever has zero impact on the sound quality.

Again, if you think your sub should be louder then change the trim until you are happen. Audyssey simply EQs your system to a flat response, you can alter the trims after the fact if you think you want something different. There is no crime in wanting to change something. Audyssey is not the king of your domain
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post #7 of 29
2/25/09 at 9:19am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

trim levels are just speaker level matching tools...wether they are -5, -12, 0, 4 or whatever has zero impact on the sound quality.

Again, if you think your sub should be louder then change the trim until you are happen. Audyssey simply EQs your system to a flat response, you can alter the trims after the fact if you think you want something different. There is no crime in wanting to change something. Audyssey is not the king of your domain

lol, good to know. For now I'll be the master of my domain (Seinfeld). I'll give it a shot. I was under the impression that if you go messing with things after audyssey sets levels then you will be throwing everything out of whack. Thanks for your help.
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post #8 of 29
2/25/09 at 9:22am
Quote:


I'll give it a shot. I was under the impression that if you go messing with things after audyssey sets levels then you will be throwing everything out of whack. Thanks for your help

Trim levels might be the only thing you can change. Atleast try it, then you will know.
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post #9 of 29
2/25/09 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickboy013 View Post

...I thought audyssey disregards any settings and sets the trims and crossovers its capable of....

He was talking about the crossover frequency of the sub, and not the one within the receiver. Set the sub knob to the highest frequency which is probably 120 or 150 Hz. Audyssey will set the ones within the receiver for you automatically.
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post #10 of 29
2/25/09 at 10:25am
I ran Audyssey for the 1st time a few days ago (Studio 100's, CC690, Studio 20's, Atoms and PW2200) The distance was close except the sub, level was wayyyy too low, ALL speakers were set to large (even the Atoms) and x-over was set to 60Hz.

After listening to a couple DVD's, I reset everything back to how I had it before (all speakers small, x-over 80Hz, correct distances, bring up sub level, EQ off) and the sound was more to my liking.

Maybe I wasnt used to the different sound....an Audyssey-calibrated setup should probably be run for a few days is what I'm thinking. Correct?
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post #11 of 29
2/25/09 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

I ran Audyssey for the 1st time a few days ago (Studio 100's, CC690, Studio 20's, Atoms and PW2200) The distance was close except the sub, level was wayyyy too low, ALL speakers were set to large (even the Atoms) and x-over was set to 60Hz.

After listening to a couple DVD's, I reset everything back to how I had it before (all speakers small, x-over 80Hz, correct distances, bring up sub level, EQ off) and the sound was more to my liking.

Maybe I wasnt used to the different sound....an Audyssey-calibrated setup should probably be run for a few days is what I'm thinking. Correct?

Yes, but........
I do not know your hardware but all set to LARGE is not Audyssey's decision but that of the processor manufacturer. In addition, with the x-over set to 60Hz, it is also possible that you were getting "Double Bass" with the sub-60Hz signals duplicated in the main speakers and the sub. Make sure that "Double Bass" or the equivalent is turned off.

So, I would turn on Audyssey but set all the speakers to SMALL with 60-80Hz crossovers. If the sub distance was longer than tape-measure indications, use Audyssey's longer setting as it includes processing delays.

Now, live with that for a week and re-assess.
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post #12 of 29
2/25/09 at 12:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

He was talking about the crossover frequency of the sub, and not the one within the receiver. Set the sub knob to the highest frequency which is probably 120 or 150 Hz. Audyssey will set the ones within the receiver for you automatically.

I don't have an independant crossover on the sub only a gain/volume knob. I'm still messing with things but it still seems like I can't get the bass right.
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post #13 of 29
2/25/09 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickboy013 View Post

I don't have an independant crossover on the sub only a gain/volume knob. I'm still messing with things but it still seems like I can't get the bass right.


Well that could be a good or bad thing. I would interpret it as the sub just putting out as much bass as it can, which is the equivalent of setting the crossover very high.

You might actually be fine.


Run through a calibration DVD with the falling-off bass tone to see if there's any noticeable gap.
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post #14 of 29
2/25/09 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Make sure that "Double Bass" or the equivalent is turned off.

Receiver is a Marantz SR6003.....I didnt notice that setting in the GUI.
Would there be another name for it?

Quote:


So, I would turn on Audyssey but set all the speakers to SMALL with 60-80Hz crossovers. If the sub distance was longer than tape-measure indications, use Audyssey's longer setting as it includes processing delays.

Now, live with that for a week and re-assess.

So after running Audyssey (4-6 times) with sub at 11:00, phase at 0, leave all settings alone except the speaker size....and the sub level I could increase as well, right? Distance, EQ, etc. leave those alone. Just confirming.

Thanx Kal.

P.S. Sorry if this is somewhat off-topic to the OP of this thread.
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post #15 of 29
2/25/09 at 2:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post


P.S. Sorry if this is somewhat off-topic to the OP of this thread.

It's all good. Might help me with something too.
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post #16 of 29
2/26/09 at 3:38am
sickboy, it looks like you have your couch against a wall. Are all your measurements being made on the couch, and hence close to the wall? If so you might be in a bass peak area, and audacy is trying to correct it. Just for fun, try making a measurement a few feet in front of the couch.
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post #17 of 29
2/26/09 at 6:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

Receiver is a Marantz SR6003.....I didnt notice that setting in the GUI.
Would there be another name for it?

I don't know what term Marantz or others might use for this. Probably buried in the manual somewhere.

Quote:


So after running Audyssey (4-6 times) with sub at 11:00, phase at 0, leave all settings alone except the speaker size....and the sub level I could increase as well, right? Distance, EQ, etc. leave those alone. Just confirming.

Yes.
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post #18 of 29
2/26/09 at 8:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

sickboy, it looks like you have your couch against a wall. Are all your measurements being made on the couch, and hence close to the wall? If so you might be in a bass peak area, and audacy is trying to correct it. Just for fun, try making a measurement a few feet in front of the couch.

Yeah it is right up against the wall. I have been measuring it about 1 foot away from the wall, I'll move the mic out a couple more feet and give it a shot. Thanks for the suggestion.
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post #19 of 29
2/26/09 at 11:44am
What crossovers is Audyssey setting for all your speakers, sickboy013?
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post #20 of 29
2/26/09 at 1:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

What crossovers is Audyssey setting for all your speakers, sickboy013?

It is setting everything to small and throwing my lfe/sub crossover to 150hz. I bump it back down to 120hz. I'm not sure if 2eq sets crossovers for individual speakers, I haven't seen anything about individual crossovers.

I did move my sub out to where I sit and did the crawl method. I found that the sub sounded way better on the other side of my entertainment center. On the side I had it on I noticed a lot more boominess (not a word ) I redid audyssey and moved to mic out a couple more feet from the couch and ended up with a -9db on the sub channel. It sounds better for sure and I can boost the sub up to around -3db for movies, to provide more bass.
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post #21 of 29
2/26/09 at 3:20pm
I had similar experience I found that mic placement makes a big difference. I cheated my audyssey listing points around a bit to favor areas where my bass was getting boom-y. and it seemed to help a lot.

Sadly the place in my room where things sound the best is sitting on my coffee table. I wish i could move the sofa there but it is just not an option.
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post #22 of 29
2/26/09 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickboy013 View Post

It is setting everything to small and throwing my lfe/sub crossover to 150hz.

I would leave it set to the 150Hz it determined to be best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sickboy013 View Post

I redid audyssey and moved to mic out a couple more feet from the couch............



Your mic needs to be at your sweet spot. Your primary listening position. At ear-level. You may be able to "cheat" the sub calibration by moving the mic, but your speaker calibration levels won't be correct if the mic is not at your sweet spot. If you don't like the level your sub ends up calibrated, no reason you can't change that to taste. But moving the mic just to end up with another calibration value for the sub is silly. Just turn it up (or down, as the case may be).




If you don't like the way Audyssey is calibrating your setup (and it seems you don't), you can always calibrate manually.
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post #23 of 29
2/26/09 at 5:40pm
The trick now is to move your speakers/sub/seat around so that you can get the best possible sound at your seat (which is of course also where you should make the measurements).

If you can't add room treatments, or move the seat, then you just have to find the best arrangement you can under your circumstances.
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post #24 of 29
2/26/09 at 6:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

I would leave it set to the 150Hz it determined to be best.




Your mic needs to be at your sweet spot. Your primary listening position. At ear-level. You may be able to "cheat" the sub calibration by moving the mic, but your speaker calibration levels won't be correct if the mic is not at your sweet spot. If you don't like the level your sub ends up calibrated, no reason you can't change that to taste. But moving the mic just to end up with another calibration value for the sub is silly. Just turn it up (or down, as the case may be).




If you don't like the way Audyssey is calibrating your setup (and it seems you don't), you can always calibrate manually.

Everything is pretty much exactly the same except for the different level on the sub as far as moving the mic back or forth.

I was reading in the audyssey thread that it is ok to bump the crossover back down to 120hz without affecting anything. This way to I don't hear more out of my sub than I already have with the 120hz xover.
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post #25 of 29
2/26/09 at 9:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickboy013 View Post

I was reading in the audyssey thread that it is ok to bump the crossover back down to 120hz without affecting anything.

It's OK if your speakers can really cover that range from 120-150Hz.
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post #26 of 29
2/27/09 at 10:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

It's OK if your speakers can really cover that range from 120-150Hz.

Well I figure that xover will be good. My rear speakers are technically the weak link in the system. They are rated from 80hz-20khz. My fronts are rated at 35hz-50khz and center at 60 hz-50khz. Plus I think it just sounds better @ 120hz.
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post #27 of 29
2/27/09 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickboy013 View Post

Well I figure that xover will be good. My rear speakers are technically the weak link in the system. They are rated from 80hz-20khz. My fronts are rated at 35hz-50khz and center at 60 hz-50khz. Plus I think it just sounds better @ 120hz.



If that is truly the the +/-3dB FR of your speakers, why did Audyssey set a 150Hz crossover? If those really are the the +/-3dB points of your speakers, the usual 80Hz crossover should work just fine for you.
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post #28 of 29
2/27/09 at 3:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickboy013 View Post

Well I figure that xover will be good. My rear speakers are technically the weak link in the system. They are rated from 80hz-20khz. My fronts are rated at 35hz-50khz and center at 60 hz-50khz. Plus I think it just sounds better @ 120hz.

Hard to believe that Onkyo actually spec'd those front 3 go that low?

Maybe they know something we dont.

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post #29 of 29
2/27/09 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

Hard to believe that Onkyo actually spec'd those front 3 go that low?

Maybe they know something we dont.

Doubt it.
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