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Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only] - Page 707

post #21181 of 38730
Hi Bob.

No, the mute is off and volume is up.
It is HDMI to HDMI. I tried playing a CD and there is no audio there either.
2CH PCM is still on the Rotel display. It should be displaying multi-channel for blu-ray and 44.1Khz for CD's. I'm at a complete loss here.
Primary output is HDMI. I've been diagnosing this problem for hours!
post #21182 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise_newf View Post

Hi Bob.

No, the mute is off and volume is up.
It is HDMI to HDMI. I tried playing a CD and there is no audio there either.
2CH PCM is still on the Rotel display. It should be displaying multi-channel for blu-ray and 44.1Khz for CD's. I'm at a complete loss here.
Primary output is HDMI. I've been diagnosing this problem for hours!

Temporarily set the video output resolution of the Oppo to 480p (not 480i). This is the "simplest" video setting for HDMI. Try playing your CD again.

Power off the display and unplug its HDMI connection to the Rotel. Try playing the CD again.

If you can't get the CD to play audio over HDMI at 480p with the display no longer connected to the Rotel, this suggests a settings problem in the Rotel.

Revisit your settings for the Oppo input vs. the PS3 input. Try connecting the Oppo cable to the socket you are using for the PS3.
--Bob
post #21183 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise_newf View Post

Hi Bob.

No, the mute is off and volume is up.
It is HDMI to HDMI. I tried playing a CD and there is no audio there either.
2CH PCM is still on the Rotel display. It should be displaying multi-channel for blu-ray and 44.1Khz for CD's. I'm at a complete loss here.
Primary output is HDMI. I've been diagnosing this problem for hours!

Look in the other direction. Is your monitor handshaking the audio to something other than what you want?
post #21184 of 38730
OK, We are on to something. Once the HDMI (monitor output) is disconnected from the Pioneer 141FD, the sound for CD over HDMI (480p) works.

So its a handshaking issue with the Pioneer?
Ouch, I just bought this TV today.

Can this be rectified? I really appreciate your help here!
post #21185 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise_newf View Post

OK, We are on to something. Once the HDMI (monitor output) is disconnected from the Pioneer 141FD, the sound for CD over HDMI (480p) works.

So its a handshaking issue with the Pioneer?
Ouch, I just bought this TV today.

Can this be rectified? I really appreciate your help here!

There must be a setting in the Rotel which is passing audio over HDMI to the display. This means the source has to handshake all the way through to the display to verify copy protection, etc., and that could be your problem because the display may very well be set to say it doesn't WANT audio over HDMI.

Now, the trick is figuring out why it works with the PS3 and not with the Oppo.

You need to revisit your Rotel settings.
--Bob
post #21186 of 38730
Within Rotel's "HDMI Audio Mode," I have "AMP Mode" selected so that it DONT pass audio signals to the TV for all inputs (the PS3 as well).

This particular Pioneer monitor cannot accept audio since it has no speakers or internal amplifier.

Why would it work with the PS3? Do you have the answer. He He.
post #21187 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Just curious.
Would that show up in pictures, or too subtle to photograph?

I would never have though it would be possible... but here you are !

I took the pictures in raw format, 100 iso, then set the contrast boost on maximum in the raw -> tiff converter.
The pictures are out-of-focus on purpose, to avoid moire effect and confusing the steps with the panel grid.









Even like this, the effect is difficult to see. It gives a good idea of what it looks like in reality.
I've also checked with Gimp, creating a 8-bit greyscale ramp and increasing its dynamic. I got exactly the same kind of steps, so that's not a faulty contrast process in the Oppo.

In case your PC display posterizes the image so much that the steps are not visible, I took the above picture and boosted the contrast again to help you localize the steps. Now, the result looks completely unnatural.



No correction in the Oppo : no step



Very light correction. Two steps are barely visible in the lower ramp, the right hand one just near the arrow above the "contrast" word, a bit on the right side.



Light correction. Three steps are visible in the upper ramp, in the grey part.



Bigger correction. 6 steps are visible in both ramps. Sharper in the upper one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Now your YCbCr 4:2:2 input with Deep Color off should be 12 bits per component (24 bits per pixel -- with only 2 of the 3 components transmitted each pixel time). So if your display is truncating input back to 8 bits per component you would expect to be able to see it there too.

This is the case indeed. But who knows if the Oppo turns on deep color sending the corrected picture to the 4:2:2 output, while the deep color option is actually off ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Keep in mind that the video processing path is different in the Oppo for Source Direct than for any explicit output resolution. The type of checking you are doing should be done with an explicit output resolution so that the VRS chip is doing all the heavy lifting.

I quite don't understand what you mean here.
I can say that this test is done with the output resolution set to 1080p.
I've just tried in source direct. the result is the same. Steps with deep color off, no steps with deep color off (dithered).

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Thank you! This is the first report I have ever heard of deep color processing being visible on a test pattern.

Not quite. It's the effect of truncation versus dithering that is shown here, not deep color. The data are all 8 bits.
The advantage of deep color may show up if the display device itself performs heavy processing after the player. For example if black and white levels are adjusted in the player, and the display is in some kind of "high contrast" picture mode. The dither may become visible without deep color... if you're close enough to see the display's grid, I'd say.
post #21188 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise_newf View Post

Within Rotel's "HDMI Audio Mode," I have "AMP Mode" selected so that it DONT pass audio signals to the TV for all inputs (the PS3 as well).

This particular Pioneer monitor cannot accept audio since it has no speakers or internal amplifier.

Why would it work with the PS3? Do you have the answer. He He.

Sounds like the Rotel is not correctly handshaking for audio. At least not as far as the Oppo is concerned. Try changing inputs and back, power cycling the Oppo, etc, to see if you can force a correct handshake. Also try just turning the monitor off. If not, you'll have to discuss this with Oppo support to see if they can find a solution.
post #21189 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

If you are using triggers to turn on the amp, make sure the trigger is active when you select the multi-channel audio.
--Bob

If the amp is on isn't the trigger active?
post #21190 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise_newf View Post

Can this be rectified?

A particularly easy test is to use the optica/coax audio output. If that works and HDMI does not it strongly suggests the handshake is passing back the 141's capability. If this is not a configuration option in your AVR then it sounds like a defect.
post #21191 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluvette View Post

If the amp is on isn't the trigger active?

You need to be sure you are not confusing On/Standby with On/Active.
--Bob
post #21192 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise_newf View Post

Within Rotel's "HDMI Audio Mode," I have "AMP Mode" selected so that it DONT pass audio signals to the TV for all inputs (the PS3 as well).

This particular Pioneer monitor cannot accept audio since it has no speakers or internal amplifier.

Why would it work with the PS3? Do you have the answer. He He.

It is a bug. The trick now is to figure out if it is a bug in the Oppo, in the Rotel, or in the display.

At the moment my guess would be it is a bug in the Rotel. But that is just a hunch.

If you are not already using the 0905 firmware in the Oppo you should switch to that and try again. Otherwise call Oppo tech support and let them diagnose this with you. While waiting, check to see if there is a firmware upgrade for your Rotel.
--Bob
post #21193 of 38730
No problems with a Denon 3806 using HDMI through the current official firmware.
post #21194 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio2001 View Post

I would never have though it would be possible... but here you are !

I took the pictures in raw format, 100 iso, then set the contrast boost on maximum in the raw -> tiff converter.
The pictures are out-of-focus on purpose, to avoid moire effect and confusing the steps with the panel grid.









Even like this, the effect is difficult to see. It gives a good idea of what it looks like in reality.
I've also checked with Gimp, creating a 8-bit greyscale ramp and increasing its dynamic. I got exactly the same kind of steps, so that's not a faulty contrast process in the Oppo.

In case your PC display posterizes the image so much that the steps are not visible, I took the above picture and boosted the contrast again to help you localize the steps. Now, the result looks completely unnatural.



No correction in the Oppo : no step



Very light correction. Two steps are barely visible in the lower ramp, the right hand one just near the arrow above the "contrast" word, a bit on the right side.



Light correction. Three steps are visible in the upper ramp, in the grey part.



Bigger correction. 6 steps are visible in both ramps. Sharper in the upper one.



This is the case indeed. But who knows if the Oppo turns on deep color sending the corrected picture to the 4:2:2 output, while the deep color option is actually off ?



I quite don't understand what you mean here.
I can say that this test is done with the output resolution set to 1080p.
I've just tried in source direct. the result is the same. Steps with deep color off, no steps with deep color off (dithered).



Not quite. It's the effect of truncation versus dithering that is shown here, not deep color. The data are all 8 bits.
The advantage of deep color may show up if the display device itself performs heavy processing after the player. For example if black and white levels are adjusted in the player, and the display is in some kind of "high contrast" picture mode. The dither may become visible without deep color... if you're close enough to see the display's grid, I'd say.

Thanks.

So, would you say Deep color: Off (Dithered) is your best setting?

Have you seen the effect of that setting on movie material?

Mike
post #21195 of 38730
I want to say first I like my Oppo and am now enjoying Rice Krispie free SACD w/ HDMI. SACD and DVD-A playback ability was a deciding factor for me as I had a decent Blu-ray player already. This is my first SACD/DVD-A player so I have just started to collect a few discs.

Popped in my one and only DVD-A (so far) and after "loading" track one displayed on the faceplate for a second and then "root menu" came up and no amont of coaxing from the remote would start the disc.

I turned on the display and went through the menu and was able to get it to play but this can't be the norm. I don't recall this happening before I installed 0905. I certainly don"t wish to have to turn on the TV to listen to music.

-Bob
post #21196 of 38730
If I install the 0905 firmware, will I be able to go back to the current (June) firmware? Basically, I have owned the Oppo for 3 days. If I can't get this to work over the next few days, I'm going to be forced to return it. I don't see Rotel working this out on a unit they no longer manufacture.

As I had mentioned, I had used this Rotel/Oppo combination last week with no issues. I borrowed my friends Oppo to try it out before I purchased it. The only change was the fact that I had it connected to a 2 year old Panasonic Plasma. The Pioneer I'm using now is brand new.
Its only been a problem since I introduced the Pioneer into the equation.

But you guys still think its prob. the Rotel hey?





Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

It is a bug. The trick now is to figure out if it is a bug in the Oppo, in the Rotel, or in the display.

At the moment my guess would be it is a bug in the Rotel. But that is just a hunch.

If you are not already using the 0905 firmware in the Oppo you should switch to that and try again. Otherwise call Oppo tech support and let them diagnose this with you. While waiting, check to see if there is a firmware upgrade for your Rotel.
--Bob
post #21197 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

You need to be sure you are not confusing On/Standby with On/Active.
--Bob

If my A/V Receiver is on my Amp is on via trigger. Isn't standby when the Receiver is off and the Amp is off and ready to go when called upon by the receiver? I looked through my user guide and there is nothing more about this. I may have to contact Emotiva. On the Oppo display, there is nothing to indicate analog out for sound only HDMI.
post #21198 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

A particularly easy test is to use the optica/coax audio output. If that works and HDMI does not it strongly suggests the handshake is passing back the 141's capability. If this is not a configuration option in your AVR then it sounds like a defect.

What do you mean when you say, "suggests the handshake is passing back the 141's capability." ??? Sorry, I'm trying to get all of this straight before I call tech support.

Also, do you believe that where the Pioneer monitor 141FD doesn't do audio (no speakers and no internal amp), it may be relaying in the HDMI chain that it doesn't want audio over hdmi?
post #21199 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pio2001 View Post

Not quite. It's the effect of truncation versus dithering that is shown here, not deep color. The data are all 8 bits.

The internal computations are >8 bits which is then dithered to 8.

I am not understanding how any of this can produce a different 1920x1080 grayscale pattern. There is no scaling or upsampling. Every pixel has a specific luminence value. How can any processing produce a smoother ramp? Unless the given values are being modified, which sounds evil. Wouldn't that happen only if encoded bands are being artificially smoothed?

-Bill
post #21200 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise_newf View Post

If I install the 0905 firmware, will I be able to go back to the current (June) firmware? Basically, I have owned the Oppo for 3 days. If I can't get this to work over the next few days, I'm going to be forced to return it. I don't see Rotel working this out on a unit they no longer manufacture.

As I had mentioned, I had used this Rotel/Oppo combination last week with no issues. I borrowed my friends Oppo to try it out before I purchased it. The only change was the fact that I had it connected to a 2 year old Panasonic Plasma. The Pioneer I'm using now is brand new.
Its only been a problem since I introduced the Pioneer into the equation.

But you guys still think its prob. the Rotel hey?

Yes, there's no problem going back to the 0620 firmware if you need to.

The 0905 firmware has significantly improved HDMI code in the Oppo, so that really is worth trying.
--Bob
post #21201 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

The internal computations are >8 bits which is then dithered to 8.

I am not understanding how any of this can produce a different 1920x1080 grayscale pattern. There is no scaling or upsampling. Every pixel has a specific luminence value. How can any processing produce a smoother ramp? Unless the given values are being modified, which sounds evil. Wouldn't that happen only if encoded bands are being artificially smoothed?

-Bill

Dithering is the better way to truncate. Apparently what is happening is his display is truncating (which is unfortunate) without dithering (which is wrong). But by dithering in the Oppo you get around the problem in his display.
--Bob
post #21202 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise_newf View Post

What do you mean when you say, "suggests the handshake is passing back the 141's capability." ??? Sorry, I'm trying to get all of this straight before I call tech support.

Also, do you believe that where the Pioneer monitor 141FD doesn't do audio (no speakers and no internal amp), it may be relaying in the HDMI chain that it doesn't want audio over hdmi?

That would seem to be the issue as the Rotel probably does not edit the EDID information to send it's audio capability; hence NO audio.

Some AVR's have two settings, one for audio pass through and the other for the AVR to process sound. This would suggest it passes audio capability in pass through and alters EDID when not in pass through.

Not sure how to fix this one unless a splitter would and split HDMI prior to going into TV and AVR
post #21203 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradise_newf View Post

What do you mean when you say, "suggests the handshake is passing back the 141's capability." ??? Sorry, I'm trying to get all of this straight before I call tech support.

Also, do you believe that where the Pioneer monitor 141FD doesn't do audio (no speakers and no internal amp), it may be relaying in the HDMI chain that it doesn't want audio over hdmi?

Apparently the Rotel is not properly presenting itself as the end consumer of the HDMI audio in your setup. It is telling the Oppo that the display is the end consumer of the audio. Which means the Oppo has to check with the display to insure copy protection. But the display then says it doesn't want audio. So the Oppo is not sending out any audio. So the Rotel doesn't get any audio, and there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
--Bob
post #21204 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishinbob View Post

Popped in my one and only DVD-A (so far) and after "loading" track one displayed on the faceplate for a second and then "root menu" came up and no amont of coaxing from the remote would start the disc.

I turned on the display and went through the menu and was able to get it to play but this can't be the norm. I don't recall this happening before I installed 0905. I certainly don"t wish to have to turn on the TV to listen to music.

-Bob

Most DVD-Audio discs are authored such that you need to see and use the disc menu to start playback. In some cases, the "play" button may start the disc playing, but it will depend on the disc itself. It's different than SACD, which was designed solely as an audio disc similar to CD.
post #21205 of 38730
Is there anyone here from Canada (particularly Vancouver) that can do me a favor? Can I send you my USB stick and you can test it on your BD-83 to see if you can play the AVI files on it? I'd need it back, so I can send you return postage with the USB stick.
post #21206 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishinbob View Post

I want to say first I like my Oppo and am now enjoying Rice Krispie free SACD w/ HDMI. SACD and DVD-A playback ability was a deciding factor for me as I had a decent Blu-ray player already. This is my first SACD/DVD-A player so I have just started to collect a few discs.

Popped in my one and only DVD-A (so far) and after "loading" track one displayed on the faceplate for a second and then "root menu" came up and no amont of coaxing from the remote would start the disc.

I turned on the display and went through the menu and was able to get it to play but this can't be the norm. I don't recall this happening before I installed 0905. I certainly don"t wish to have to turn on the TV to listen to music.

-Bob

I agree with Gonk. A DVD-A is just a DVD ......

However most of the few that I have just play by pushing the "enter" button twice.
post #21207 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbjork View Post

I posted some time ago about an issue where the LFE channel is not being downmixed into the main channels when using the analogue outputs of the BD-83 and turning the subwoofer output "off." This will only affect those who have no subwoofer or who are using powered towers (like me.) I only heard from one person who has a setup affected by this problem, and I sent him a PM, but I thought that I would post an update. I just got off the phone with Oppo and they have determined that the problem is definitely with the last few firmwares, not with the hardware. They are working on a fix, but it may take as long as a month.

FYI.

I am also one of those affected by this--so many thanks for this update! It actually appears that the LFE information is also left out when re-encoding tracks into DTS 1.5Mbps. Obviously the re-encoding feature is very welcome if wanting to hear the full uncompressed PCM 5.1 through the optical output in addition to the analogs (albeit with slightly reduced fidelity)

Since I use 4 10" woofers for the fronts, the need for a subwoofer is is not all that great. Granted one can get more punch from the extreme low-end, but these speakers have served me faithfully for a long time and quite frankly does their job very well with standard DTS & DD soundtracks since the receiver is able to re-route LFE to the fronts.

I really hope Oppo sorts this problem out in order for people using a similar setup can fully enjoy the LFE track on DTS HD MA & Dolby TrueHD.

(I was thinking of submitting this as a bug myself!)
post #21208 of 38730
I saw somewhere a huge detailed comparison between the OPPO and other players from a forum member, with a rating from 1-10 in upscaling, loading times, etc.

Does anyone know what I mean and can post me the link?
post #21209 of 38730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franconian View Post

I saw somewhere a huge detailed comparison between the OPPO and other players from a forum member, with a rating from 1-10 in upscaling, loading times, etc.

Does anyone know what I mean and can post me the link?

Here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1156535

Note that video quality scores are mainly based on deinterlacing performance. This is important for DVD and some Blu-ray content, but most Blu-ray main features do not require deinterlacing and most players will have similar performance with these.

-Bill
post #21210 of 38730
Having a problem with my 2 Channel Analog outputs maybe you guys can help with before I contact Oppo.

I have a decent setup running the 2 Channel Analog Outs to an Odyessey Candela Tube Pre. Speakers of LS9 line arrays.

When I first received my BDP83 I was very happy with the 2 channel analog sound. At one point I did a firmware upgrade, didn't really listen to any music for awhile and when I did the bass sounded distorted and just plain terrible and smeared the music. I thought it may be the tubes going out in my Candela so I changed the tubes but the same problem still occured.

I than went back to the older version of firmware and reset my factory settings which still didn't seem to fix things.

I waited a week or two just listening to multi channel DVD-A through HDMI as the 2 channel was driving me nuts and I didn't want to deal with it.

I than upgraded the firmware to the latest trial firmware (8-5) i believe. And now the bass muddiness seems to be gone but the enitre soundstage has collapsed to nothing, all dynamics are lost and it just sound terrible. Muddles and lifeless.

Is there a certain settings I'm missing for the 2 channel output? I hooked up an Arcam FMJ27 for now to listen to CD's and to ease my mind again that it isn't my preamp and things sound good. However I still would like to only use one player (the 83) as well as listen to 2 Channel DVD-A and SACD via my Candela which my Arcam can't do.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
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