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Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only] - Page 712

post #21331 of 38730
9/14/09 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post

PASTED FROM REVIEW:
"Sound quality improved when the supplied HDMI cable was replaced (surprising because the supplied cables worked so well with previous Oppos) and improved again when HDMI was bypassed and coaxial digital (where applicable) or the multi-channel analogue connections were used. The bottom end gained in impact and pace, the brightness was reduced. The sound was sweeter, more engaging and importantly, some of the lost goosebump factor was restored."

Can an HDMI cable affect the audio "sound quality" as described by this reviewer?

I'm not sure what the review meant by the flowery language he used, but based off the review that secrets did (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...ay-player.html), there are definite gain or level differences between the the HDMI and analog outputs coming out of the Oppo. These level differences, if not calibrated out at the AVR level, can give the impression that one output is better than the other(see attachments), notably that the higher gain outputs(analog) sound better than the digital outputs. To complicate things further, there are level differences within a given output depending on its encoding and sampling rate! Why Oppo did this isn't clear to me but it is what it is

At the end of the day, as long as you enjoy what you hear is what counts
LL
LL
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post #21332 of 38730
9/14/09 at 9:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scubawoman View Post

It may be the HDMI board in the Mitsubishi even though it is a new display. You may have already tried this but if you have something else you can connect to the display through HDMI and it doesn't work then you know it isn't the Oppo. I had some HDMI problems with my Mitsubishi display after only a month of ownership 2 years ago, bad board and a host of other problems that I received a replacement direct from Mitsubishi. Haven't had any HDMI handshake issues with my 73835 and Onkyo TX-NR905 with any other components.

As I continued testing tonight, I came to the same conclusion. Although I can see the splash screen on my HD DVD player when there is no disc in it, as soon as I put a disc in, the screen goes black. Even with nothing connected, I can't view the Setup menu on my Onkyo TX-SR805 and when I tune to the the DirecTV HDCP test channel, I get the message saying "Your TV does not support this program's content protection. Replacing the TV's HDMI cable with component cables (red, green, blue connectors) will allow you to view the program."

I hope my "guy" at PC Richard is working tomorrow. Because, if he is, he will be hearing from me.
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post #21333 of 38730
9/14/09 at 11:26pm
Amazing player, I really like it.

ONLY suggestion would be to set the "softsub" subtitles font used in the MKV player from just plain white to white with a black outline.
It's just too hard to see the white text...
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post #21334 of 38730
9/15/09 at 1:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I'm not able to reproduce the problem you are reporting here using the 0905 Beta firmware.

First understand two things:

1) The Speaker Configuration settings in the Oppo are supposed to have no effect whatsoever on any of the digital audio outputs -- whether or not DTS re-encoding is happening. If we can find a case where making a change in Speaker Configuration alters a digital audio output, then that is a bug.

2) The Oppo is NEVER supposed to do speaker configuration management (including bass steering in either direction) on any of the digital audio outputs. No volume trim, no bass steering in either direction. The Large/Small speaker settings and whether the subwoofer is ON in the Oppo Speaker Configuration are supposed to have no effect on the digital audio outputs. If we can find a case where that is not true, then that is a bug.

By design, when using the digital audio outputs, speaker configuration management and bass steering is something the AVR is supposed to do. The down-mix of multi-channel audio to fewer channels IS handled automatically according to what the AVR says it will accept. So for example if an HDMI AVR only accepts up to 5.1 channels, the Oppo will down-mix 7.1 content to 5.1 HDMI output automatically -- without regard to what's set in Speaker Configuration.

But the Speaker Configuration settings only apply to the multi-channel analog output.

-------------------------------------------------

I temporarily hooked up an Optical cable in addition to my normal HDMI cable. I temporarily set all speakers in my Anthem D2v pre-pro to Large to eliminate any confusion from bass steering happening in the pre-pro.

I tested both HDMI and Optical audio output. The HDMI audio output was set to Bitstream or OFF. The Optical audio output was set to Bitstream (and 192KHz although that shouldn't matter for Bitstream output). (Video settings were explicit 1080p, HDMI YCbCr 4:4:4, 30-bit (Dithered), 1080p/24 Auto, DVD/24 OFF.)

I tested with Secondary Audio both ON and OFF. I tested with the Subwoofer both ON and OFF in the Oppo's Speaker Configuration. I also tried lowering the Oppo's subwoofer volume trim by -10dB to see if that might be incorrectly getting applied to the digital outputs.

I tested using the 5.1 DTS, DD and Raw LPCM tracks on the AIX disc. I also tested using the 5.1 96KHz Dolby TrueHD "multi-channels level and balance" test on the "DVE HD Basics" disc. (You can't test this with the 7.1 TrueHD and DTS-HD MA tracks from AIX due to the special hack they have done to make it obvious if the "associated" or "core" compatibility track is being played by mistake.)

In all cases everything worked correctly. LFE was present ON THE LFE OUTPUT CHANNEL of the digital audio output for both HDMI and Optical and the volume level of the LFE was correct in every combo. Re-encoding into DTS happened only when it was supposed to happen, and re-encoding into DTS did not cause loss of LFE.

This was true for all combinations. In particular, the LFE came through just fine using the Oppo settings Secondary Audio ON, Subwoofer OFF, and Optical Bitstream output -- which was re-encoded 5.1 DTS at 1.5Mbps.

-------------------------------------------------------------

So there's something different between what you are doing and what I am doing and I can't spot it.

Understand that I wasn't expecting the LFE to come out on LF/RF in these tests. I was expecting it to come out on the digital LFE channel, and that's where I found it.
--Bob

You sure did some exhaustive testing there, Bob--thanks for that. Yes, I fully agree that the BDP-83 should not be impacted by any changes in the speaker setup when using optical and re-encoding the audio tracks with secondary audio set to "on", and was skeptical to this result myself. The main reason I suggested it was due to the ambiguous reply I initially received from Oppo, suggesting that the subwoofer had to be set to "on".

I did not do as extensive testing as you. Mine were much more subjective as I was watching a movie (Persepolis); so I was in effect comparing the standard Dolby Digital track to the Dolby TrueHD track re-encoded into DTS 5.1/1.5Mbps

I have not gotten around to testing with the AIX disc yet (I'll do some more testing when time permits, obviously), but I have an inkling this particular issue might be caused by the LFE information (or, rather, the bass in general) in the HD track being far lower in frequency than its non-HD counterpart. That would explain the lack of punch being experienced through the fronts, as they obviously do not reach as far down as a quality subwoofer would do. I have indeed noticed this on other, newer, DTS tracks on regular DVDs using a different player as well. It could be a fault in my receiver also, as many DTS tracks are far quiter than others (both compared to DD5.1 and other DTS tracks in general)

However--, the main issue (and the reason I contacted Oppo), was the lack of being able to take the LFE information and decode, filter, and EQ this information for use on a non-subwoofer channel (i.e, the fronts) through the six-channel analog outs.

I received an additional reply from Oppo yesterday, though, which stated that "We want this solution available for our player, as it is very important for many of our customers."

So I hope there is a chance that this functionality will be added in a later firmware release. In the mean time I'll experiment further with the re-encoded DTS tracks. I have a few discs with uncompressed PCM tracks which would make good contenders for this (in addition to the AIX calibration disc of course)
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post #21335 of 38730
9/15/09 at 2:27am
I am so glad I have a simple stereo...
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post #21336 of 38730
9/15/09 at 2:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce73 View Post

vagabond, what's the name of the app you're using to convert?

Hi

Did some more testing last night:

I tried the file on different firmwares (well actually two files, one non-converted AVI, and one converted to DivX container - DivX container always plays fine). Player factory resetted after each FW upgrade:

0620: total freeze, didn't even start to play, couldn't do anything, had to hard reboot player (pressing the off button on player for several seconds).

0805: started to read file (the little progress ring up in left corner showed some progress) but no picture and then dead in the water, had to hard reboot player.

0905: actually this one is the best, it started to play the file, but then stopped and went back to the USB interface. Player responds to RC command input.

Now the funny thing is that other AVI files that previously could be played in the 0905 FW now didn't work (after the corrupted AVI file stopped). Converted DivX files - I use a little program called AVIAddXSubs for adding subtitle files and it results in a .divx file extension - played alright, but not the AVI files that had previously worked.

Had to reset to factory default settings, and then the AVI's worked again (not the corrupted one).

I have been hinted that it may be an Index issue, by converting the AVI into a new container (in this case a DivX container) the file is re-indexed. However, it may also be that AVIAddXSubs also unpacks packed bitstream files (it doesn't reencode the file or anything), and maybe the Oppo is sensitive to packed bitstream files?

Also if the player hangs for some reason, some of the corrupted info seem to be retained in the player's memory, and the only way to clear it is by doing a Factory reset.

Haven't checked with other DivX certified players yet.

Will test some more, before notifying Oppo.

Cheers
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post #21337 of 38730
9/15/09 at 2:56am
Just a quick addition:

For AVI and DivX, the 0905 still seems to be the preferred FW to use.

And:

If one experiences any weird issues (even if you haven't done a firmware upgrade), start by doing a Factory Reset, that seems to clear any corrupted info that is retained in the player's memory.

Cheers
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post #21338 of 38730
9/15/09 at 4:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

But the Speaker Configuration settings only apply to the multi-channel analog output.

I found one exception.

With the Aix Record channel identification test, on the stereo analog output, in the DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 test, setting the downmix to stereo instead of 7.1 strongly attenuates the left rear surround and right rear surround channels, to the point that they are nearly inaudible.
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post #21339 of 38730
9/15/09 at 4:46am
anyone tried wolverine yet? it wont play on my oppo on the 805 or 905 firmware.
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post #21340 of 38730
9/15/09 at 5:19am
"'m not sure what the review meant by the flowery language he used, but based off the review that secrets did (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...ay-player.html), there are definite gain or level differences between the the HDMI and analog outputs coming out of the Oppo. These level differences, if not calibrated out at the AVR level, can give the impression that one output is better than the other(see attachments), notably that the higher gain outputs(analog) sound better than the digital outputs. To complicate things further, there are level differences within a given output depending on its encoding and sampling rate! Why Oppo did this isn't clear to me but it is what it is

At the end of the day, as long as you enjoy what you hear is what counts"


10 db is a lot of difference. However, if the preamp is properly adjusted on set up there would be no quality issues other than the intrinsic differences between the modes

Going back and forth might not be a good idea though.

If this is real, Oppo should address it.

Joel
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post #21341 of 38730
9/15/09 at 5:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

Fellow BDP-83 owners may be interested in the evaluation/rating given the BDP-83 in the new "Recommended Components" review, in the October Stereophile. - In it's category (SACD, DVD, and CD players), the BDP-83 is given an "A+" rating. What's remarkable is that it's street price (of $499) is far lower than those of any other units in either the A+ or A components. For example, other players in this category include the the $24,000 Boulder 1021, the $79,996 dCS Scarlatti, the $8,000 Cary D 306, and the $3,000 Sony SCD-X9000ES. - Maybe the rating is skewed or exaggerated, but it will be nice to quote if you ever want to sell your unit.

:-) I was sitting here with that issue open to page 69 and was about to post the exact same info. Thanks for saving the keystrokes!

Roberta
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post #21342 of 38730
9/15/09 at 6:26am
Just received my 83 yesterday and it's love at first sight. Seriously.

Anyway, I'm planning on using the analog outs just for SACD playback via PCM as my Denon 2310CI AVR doesn't do DSD. But I'm still confused about one thing: the FAQs mentions that there is no need to adjust the bass in the AVR for SACDs. The Denon defaults to -15dBs on its EXT.IN. Does this mean I need to change the level to 0 dBs?
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post #21343 of 38730
9/15/09 at 6:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce73 View Post

Just received my 83 yesterday and it's love at first sight. Seriously.

Anyway, I'm planning on using the analog outs just for SACD playback via PCM as my Denon 2310CI AVR doesn't do DSD. But I'm still confused about one thing: the FAQs mentions that there is no need to adjust the bass in the AVR for SACDs. The Denon defaults to -15dBs on its EXT.IN. Does this mean I need to change the level to 0 dBs?

You have HDMI inputs, using the analog would be a serious misapplication of time and resource. Set the player to output PCM for SACD and enjoy.
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post #21344 of 38730
9/15/09 at 7:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

You have HDMI inputs, using the analog would be a serious misapplication of time and resource. Set the player to output PCM for SACD and enjoy.

Just to piggyback on this post, there seems to be a lot of confusion about DSD. I have noticed, at least with my onkyo 905 and onkyo 876 that both converted the DSD signal to pcm before playback. Just because a receiver says it accepts DSD doesn't mean there is no conversion that takes place. Having the 83 output pcm isn't going to cost you audio quality.
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post #21345 of 38730
9/15/09 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

any

when was your oppo made?

Joel
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post #21346 of 38730
9/15/09 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Then there are other statements like this one...

"Images had realistic size but were slightly forward and lacked body, enclosed in a dry-ish acoustic. The Oppo sounded flat and unsatisfying, aloof and lacking in toe-tapping pace."

WTF?!??!....

Sounds like a wine review rather than one for electronics. The only reference he missed was "a hint of cassis!"
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post #21347 of 38730
9/15/09 at 7:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Why Oppo did this isn't clear to me but it is what it is

This is pretty common and found in earlier Oppos as well. Frankly, I think it is only the obsessives, like us, who A/B formats and decoding schemes and that manufacturers have other, more substantive, issues to which to apply their resources. Even Oppo.
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post #21348 of 38730
9/15/09 at 7:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

I am so glad I have a simple stereo...

LOL, I had to respond to this and thinking the same when electronics were so much easier to connect. Now it seems you need to be a EE just to connect the gear and set the parameters for your AVR. I remember back in the late 70's early 80's when all you had to do was plug in your turntable, cassette deck and you were ready to go. If you wanted to go exotic you could add a reel to reel recorder, a Dbx expander, and noise reduction unit into the mix (which I did).

On topic: unfortunately my beloved Oppo needs to take a trip to Mountain View (I wish I could go with it) as it has become problematic playing BDs and now Standard DVDs.

I spoke with Oppo and we tried disconnecting, rolling back software, etc. I finally did a direct connect to a spare Tosh Regaza with no love from the Oppo. I am glad I kept my Pioneer 51FD, always nice to have a spare, and the Pio is performing very well with the latest firmware. I hadn't used it in so long I was about 3 FWs behind. But I still prefer the Oppo.
.
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post #21349 of 38730
9/15/09 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

You have HDMI inputs, using the analog would be a serious misapplication of time and resource. Set the player to output PCM for SACD and enjoy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrobo View Post

Just to piggyback on this post, there seems to be a lot of confusion about DSD. I have noticed, at least with my onkyo 905 and onkyo 876 that both converted the DSD signal to pcm before playback. Just because a receiver says it accepts DSD doesn't mean there is no conversion that takes place. Having the 83 output pcm isn't going to cost you audio quality.

I guess my confusion stems what from I've read (and perhaps misinterpreted) from the Denon 2310CI thread. Namely, that, since the Denon doesn't decode DSD, if I set the 83 to DSD, I would only get 2-channel stereo through HDMI. What I'm finding is that, regardless if the 83 is set to DSD or PCM, I get Multi-Channel Input (PCM) via HDMI. The only difference in the two settings seems to be that, with DSD, I do only get 2-channel stereo through the analogs (expected).

So I will take your suggestions and play through HDMI and forget about the analogs. Thanks.
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post #21350 of 38730
9/15/09 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfbinet View Post

LOL, I had to respond to this and thinking the same when electronics were so much easier to connect. Now it seems you need to be a EE just to connect the gear and set the parameters for your AVR. I remember back in the late 70's early 80's when all you had to do was plug in your turntable, cassette deck and you were ready to go. If you wanted to go exotic you could add a reel to reel recorder, a Dbx expander, and noise reduction unit into the mix (which I did).

On topic: unfortunately my beloved Oppo needs to take a trip to Mountain View (I wish I could go with it) as it has become problematic playing BDs and now Standard DVDs.

I spoke with Oppo and we tried disconnecting, rolling back software, etc. I finally did a direct connect to a spare Tosh Regaza with no love from the Oppo. I am glad I kept my Pioneer 51FD, always nice to have a spare, and the Pio is performing very well with the latest firmware. I hadn't used it in so long I was about 3 FWs behind. But I still prefer the Oppo.
.

What firmare when it died? i.e. hard ware or firmware issue?
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post #21351 of 38730
9/15/09 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post

Just a quick addition:

For AVI and DivX, the 0905 still seems to be the preferred FW to use.

And:

If one experiences any weird issues (even if you haven't done a firmware upgrade), start by doing a Factory Reset, that seems to clear any corrupted info that is retained in the player's memory.

Cheers

Thanks for the feedback on the mdia file compatibility. Is there any plan from oppo to have media playback feature available via network? I have a media server/NAS unit that I can hack the usb port to be available for data sharing, but it be much more convenient through the network.

I am thinking about getting two units, but I really not prefer getting one oppo and one LG-BD390 or both LG-BD390 for the media streaming feature.
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post #21352 of 38730
9/15/09 at 8:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce73 View Post

...What I'm finding is that, regardless if the 83 is set to DSD or PCM, I get Multi-Channel Input (PCM) via HDMI....

Remember though, SACD does not necessarily mean multichannel. Most of my collection are stereo hybrid discs, meaning they are 2 channel, and will play high res or standard stereo. The multichannel discs will also give you a 2 channel selection.
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post #21353 of 38730
9/15/09 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce73 View Post

I guess my confusion stems what from I've read (and perhaps misinterpreted) from the Denon 2310CI thread. Namely, that, since the Denon doesn't decode DSD, if I set the 83 to DSD, I would only get 2-channel stereo through HDMI. What I'm finding is that, regardless if the 83 is set to DSD or PCM, I get Multi-Channel Input (PCM) via HDMI. The only difference in the two settings seems to be that, with DSD, I do only get 2-channel stereo through the analogs (expected).

So I will take your suggestions and play through HDMI and forget about the analogs. Thanks.

It depends on the handshake the player receives from the AVR. Most AVRs will refuse DSD input if they don't support it and the player will send PCM even if it's set to send DSD.

The stereo analog output from the player will be L-R only, if the player is set to send DSD, and will be downmixed stereo if the player is set to send PCM.
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post #21354 of 38730
9/15/09 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOPY View Post

anyone tried wolverine yet? it wont play on my oppo on the 805 or 905 firmware.

I just picked it up at lunch time. Will try it when I get home
later today.
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post #21355 of 38730
9/15/09 at 9:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

there are definite gain or level differences between the the HDMI and analog outputs coming out of the Oppo. These level differences, if not calibrated out at the AVR level, can give the impression that one output is better than the other(see attachments), notably that the higher gain outputs(analog) sound better than the digital outputs. To complicate things further, there are level differences within a given output depending on its encoding and sampling rate! Why Oppo did this isn't clear to me but it is what it is

Are there also such large level differences when you play a BD disc or DVD?
And maybe even between different audiocodecs (LPMC, DTS-MA, DDTrueHD, etc)?
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post #21356 of 38730
9/15/09 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

This is pretty common and found in earlier Oppos as well. Frankly, I think it is only the obsessives, like us, who A/B formats and decoding schemes and that manufacturers have other, more substantive, issues to which to apply their resources. Even Oppo.

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post #21357 of 38730
9/15/09 at 9:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

It depends on the handshake the player receives from the AVR. Most AVRs will refuse DSD input if they don't support it and the player will send PCM even if it's set to send DSD.

That's what I figured.

Quote:
The stereo analog output from the player will be L-R only, if the player is set to send DSD, and will be downmixed stereo if the player is set to send PCM.

I could have sworn I was getting Multi-Channel with PCM via the analogs (at least that's what I thought the Denon's display said). Could be wrong on that. Anyway, I will be more than content to listen to the read deal as PCM via HDMI and eliminate some cables. Thanks for clearing this up.
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post #21358 of 38730
9/15/09 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

Remember though, SACD does not necessarily mean multichannel. Most of my collection are stereo hybrid discs, meaning they are 2 channel, and will play high res or standard stereo. The multichannel discs will also give you a 2 channel selection.

Right. Perhaps that was the intended reference to 2-channel in the Denon thread, and I assumed it to apply to all SACDs.
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post #21359 of 38730
9/15/09 at 9:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starred View Post

Are there also such large level differences when you play a BD disc or DVD?
And maybe even between different audiocodecs (LPMC, DTS-MA, DDTrueHD, etc)?

Unfortunately (I think!), I've never done an A/B test between the various codecs. I simply plugged in the BD and enjoyed myself. Also, since my entire BD collection can be counted on one hand so I can't say I have compared a level differences between BD and DVD audio. Again, I waive a chicken over my head and relax to enjoy the sound. Sometimes having too much information ain't good at all
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post #21360 of 38730
9/15/09 at 9:56am
What's with the waiving of chickens?
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